Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 191

flyingtoastr · 07/19/08, 3:58 PM

Originally Posted by JettJaguar

As in that is a change in WotLK or that is on live? JoC clearly scales with spell damage and it would seem that JoB might as well (based on screens of 19K and 7.5K crits respectively). The Seal damage is weapon based and I don't think has a SP modifier.

The WoWhead description of the Wrath JoB has damage scripts of:

Effect #1: [Weapon Damage +]
Effect #2: [Weapon % Dmg]
Value: 45

Meaning it does damage based on weapon damage (45% specifically).

Likewise, JoC has the same style script of 30% (but still seems to do double on stunned targets).

Given that these were mined from the beta I would assume they are true. It would be very easy to test anyway if anyone has access to the beta servers.

Selenia · 07/19/08, 5:05 PM

Has anything changed in any way about the procrate on Seal of Command or the way it (doesn't) interact with haste rating in the Beta?

If not, won't Blood/Martyr still be win and I might as well just save myself one talentpoint right there? Just seems.. silly that a talented ability is worse than a baseline one in almost every way.

DonGuapo · 07/19/08, 8:55 PM

Anyone in the beta capable of confirming news about the judgements? I'm curious how they will work out as a method to sustain our mana. From what I've heard and seen it looks like the new judgment system does not remove the seal and there are 3 judgements. Does this mean the current judgement of wisdom is removed?

Mlkmn · 07/19/08, 8:58 PM

With the new AP --> SD talent do you think keeping 5 stacks of vengeance/corruption on the boss makes sense? it would be something that could be stacked at the beginning while the tank gets a good threat cushion.

With over 1000 spell damage and the extra 12-15% from Seals of the Pure (4/5/62 or 5/5/61) it could do enough damage to have a spot in the rotation. Specially since it procs on every swing now.

Here is the tooltip for both vengeance and corruption.

"Fills the Paladin with holy power, granting each melee attack additional Holy damage over 18 sec. This effect can stack up to 5 times."

It would depend on how vengeance scales with spell damage. It would be nice if we got to put it in our rotation

I like getting to use more spells!

JettJaguar · 07/19/08, 9:49 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

The WoWhead description of the Wrath JoB has damage scripts of:

Effect #1: [Weapon Damage +]
Effect #2: [Weapon % Dmg]
Value: 45

Meaning it does damage based on weapon damage (45% specifically).

Likewise, JoC has the same style script of 30% (but still seems to do double on stunned targets).

Given that these were mined from the beta I would assume they are true. It would be very easy to test anyway if anyone has access to the beta servers.

Hmm. In current live, I am pretty sure that judging either seems to do more damage with the Holy SD buff from SotC, but if there is strict reliance on weapon damage, there must be some other factor accounting for the obscene crits floating around. The biggest JoC crit I have personally done, fully raid buffed and running around 4k AP is 1700-2000 on stunned trash. Given the +15% crit damage talent, +20% AW, x2 from The Art of War, I don't see the jump to 19K. 6-7K crits would make sense with those numbers (and if these players had 3500+ ap), but we are seeing evidence of much larger chunks of damage.

Dram · 07/19/08, 10:37 PM

Currently JoC is based on spell damage, so SotC does indeed increase the damage caused by JoC.

• frmorrison · 07/19/08, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Selenia

Has anything changed in any way about the procrate on Seal of Command or the way it (doesn't) interact with haste rating in the Beta?

If not, won't Blood/Martyr still be win and I might as well just save myself one talentpoint right there? Just seems.. silly that a talented ability is worse than a baseline one in almost every way.

I don't think Command is going to change.

You could drop Command, but note Blood and Judgement of Blood damages you (which is bad for Prince and in PvP), so some people don't want to take extra damage.

Currently I use Command for soloing and Blood in groups.

Alleyra · 07/20/08, 2:19 AM

I've been trying to digest every bit of information that's been released regarding our new talents and I can't help but have a few questions. Most have already been postulated in the thread, but I'm left wondering is whether or not spell damage will impact mana returns from Judgements of the Wise. Most of the changes seem oriented toward making us similar to a striking Shadow Priest, whose regenerative abilities scale based off their spell damage. This would certainly bring even more viability to Sheath of Light, in addition to it's already welcome boost to Exorcism, Hammer of Wrath, etc.

I also cannot help but wonder, given Sheath of Light's tool tip wording, if it will proc off of abilities like Divine Storm -- if the heal portion of the ability is able to crit.

Aeverius · 07/20/08, 2:42 AM

Originally Posted by Alleyra

I also cannot help but wonder, given Sheath of Light's tool tip wording, if it will proc off of abilities like Divine Storm -- if the heal portion of the ability is able to crit.

Divine Storm

"Totalling 20%" would seem to indicate that it can't crit. I was completely certain of this until I realized that nothing about Lay on Hands suggests it can crit either.

Sapp · 07/20/08, 5:32 AM

I have never seen Divine Storm crit the heal in hours of play.

Trakor · 07/20/08, 6:39 AM

This thread here on Beta pally forums seens to be pretty good, explaining some of the new mechanics for seals and judgements:

WoW Forums -> Further analysis in the Judgment System

Lawgivah · 07/20/08, 3:35 PM

I am new to posting in these forums, but I wanted to add to the current discussion.

After some testing w/ a friend, it would seem HoW is no longer disrupting the swing timer. It is hard to tell without a mod, but currently you can cast HoW and achieve an immediate swing hit (with a proc).

I don't know if this has been discussed, but I found it rather important.

• frmorrison · 07/20/08, 5:48 PM

Quartz is working on the beta, which has a swing timer. Try it there and see if want you say is true.

I know a Shaman who says the new Enhance talent resets the swing timer when casting Lighting Bolts.

Avitus · 07/20/08, 7:06 PM

Seems I'm a bit late to the party (been on a semi break from wow playing ~1-2 days a week), so excuse if some of this is a rehash.

I think the best way to process all this is to break it down into how it will affect us (even if it might be slightly simplified):

The Good:

Both factions have the same Seals now:
-Finally we can start treating the spec in a more general view rather than have to constantly tailor theory/advice by faction.

-Also Alliance retadins are finally elevated from their second class citizen status.
(New attack!) Divine Storm vs. Consecration:

-Description: An instant weapon attack that causes Holy damage to up to 4 enemies within 8 yards. The Divine Storm heals up to 3 party or raid members totaling 20% of the damage caused. (12% of base mana, 5 yard range, Instant cast, 10 sec cooldown, Requires Melee Weapon)

-Finally something worthwhile to replace the horribly non-scaling "we use it since there's nothing else" attack in our rotation (Consecration)

-Much cheaper than Consecration, should help our mana management (12% base mana = 354 mana at level 70 vs 660 mana for level 70 consecration).

-Significant DPS boost. Especially since it seems to be 100% armor bypassing holy attack assuming "an instant weapon attack" means "causes weapon damage".

-Retadins now have Whirlwind! \o/

(-I'm assuming this will finally push Consecration off our rotation for single targets which should definitely be a good thing.)
Sheath of Light, talent 30% AP -> Spelldamage:
-A few years too late, but at least it's finally here. Some might say, it's almost too late, with a lot of our abilities not using SD anymore.
Hit Rating, Critical Strike Rating, and Haste Rating now modify both melee attacks and spells.
-Another dead obvious change that's long overdue. This should round out retadins more as well as finally allow us to improve our remaining abilities that only gain from spell hit/crit.
New Judgement system:
-Finally a fix to an incredibly cumbersome mechanic (Seal Judge system) that should have been changed back in 2005. Less GCD fumbling to apply a simple debuff is a breath of fresh air.
SotC/JotC removed:

-Description: Seal of the Crusader has been removed. The effects of Judgement of the Crusader have been folded into all relevant abilities.

-Removing a useless Seal and simplifying an overly proprietary effect, what's there not to like.

-Any judgement now adds JotC crit effect when talented, simplifies our starting rotation.
Auras becoming raid wide:

-Retadin in raid = +2% flat raid damage. Though given this, 40 yard range auras should become the default rather than a tier 3 holy talent.
Blessings reduced:

-Removing BoL, BoS means there's a higher chance (or almost certainty) we'll always have our relevant buffs (BoK, BoM and BoW) assuming a minimum of 1 paladin of each spec will become the norm.
Hand of Salvation:

-20% aggro dump every 2 mins. Castable on others. Added utility is always nice, though I hope it doesn't lead to silly raid expectations any time someone overaggroes.
Avenging Wrath cooldown reduced (3 mins -> 2 mins), damage nerfed (30% -> 20%), no longer causes Forbearance, overall DPS increase:

-An overall DPS increase. New AW will be a 0.2% multiplier to total fight damage if spammed (20/120 * 1.2) rather than only 0.1444 (20/180 * 1.3).

-It's less of a suicide button. With the removal of Forbearance you can use it more frequently without having to worry about the consequences/becoming vulnerable. This is especially true for PvP/Arena.

-Talented you get "50% of all damage caused bypasses damage reduction effects", which if I understand correctly will work against damage reduced by armor means we're actually gaining burst (especially in PvP) despite the 30% -> 20% damage nerf.
Holy Wrath now instant cast, 3 second stun, 30 sec cd, 10 yard range:

-Instacast and cd reduction should make this a much more frequently used spell, rather than a "once in a blue moon" deal. The Stun can work as utility in instances with undead/demons.
Lay on Hands 20 min cd, lvl 78 version gives 1950 mana back and "no longer drains all mana"(?):
-A small mana potion every 20 mins is welcome. Still uncertain how much it actually costs to use now, patch notes say it "no longer drains all mana", data mined tooltips still show it as "draining all remaining mana"?
Repentance duration increased to 1 minute (10 second PvP duration), now usable against Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, Humanoids and Undead:
-Instance utility/CC.
Conviction now increases critical chance with all spells and melee attacks:
-Somewhat buff to healing. I can actually see holy paladins going 15 points into ret to get it now.
Judgements of the Wise (Judgement spells restore mana to up to 3 group or raid members totaling 60% of the damage caused):
-Very welcome utility/mana regen, though it's still very unclear how effective this will be depending on how random the 3 raid members that get the mana are picked. Fingers crossed that it always works for the retadin himself.
Divine Strength now increases Str by 15% rather than 10%

The Bad:

Precision removed:
-Looking at our warrior relatives, their precision talent is still there (accessible even to hybrid MS specs, though it's not sure whether they will still exist in wotlk).
-If we're supposed to share itemization, I can see this becoming annoying.
Sanctity Aura removed:
-10% damage loss to all holy attacks is roughly a 3% overall damage decrease (assuming ~30% holy damage).
Retribution Aura is our new aura to be used for the 2% damage increase when talented:
-Having the "base effect" of retribution aura something completely generic such as it is now ("thorns") makes absolutely no sense. It should be something that directly benefits the retadin/DPS, rather than being forced to use it in order to benefit from the talent.

-Raid wide "thorns" buff, even for healers and squishies, while not catastrophic, doesn't sound too comforting.
The Art of War (CS has a 15% chance to cause your next Judgement spell to cause double damage.):
-3 points for yet more randomness, which is tied to a second ability. They should simplify rather than add more random effects.

The Ugly:

Enlightened Judgements (Holy: +20 yard judgement range) + Judgements of the Pure (10% haste for 30 sec after judging):
-Giving these talents to Holy spec makes it easier and encourages holy paladins to judge frequently. With only 2 relevant raid judgement debuffs left AS WELL AS the simplification of the judging process AND the relative easy of getting "Heart of the Crusader" (tier 2 ret tree: +3% crit debuff on targets from any judgement), which pretty much all holy paladins are bound to take on their way to get Conviction (tier 3 ret tree) in order to get an additional +5% spell crit, this move is catastrophic for retadins and pretty much nullifies their purpose to be there (to keep up judgements).

-Retadins aren't used to keep up judgements anymore. Which reduces our benefit to the 2% raid damage aura. I really hope this is addressed in some way.
Ret tree is a buff to holy?? What's the point of ret?
-While I in no way am going to dislike any buff given to any paladin spec (since I do go holy and prot frequently), it's hard to ignore how the upper part of the ret tree feels very much tailored for holy spec, that it eats into our usefulness (as explained in the above point) so much that it makes no point using a ret paladin.

-For example I can see the following spec becoming a very popular holy spec: 47/0/24

You can see a holy paladin would sacrifice very few situational abilities (Beacon of Light) and almost exclusively gain from the points in the Ret Tree (+3% crit for raid, +2% damage with retri aura for raid, +5% spell crit, +crit heals give a 60% amount HoT).

-What's the point of a ret paladin if holy spec can get all this?
Mana management:
-Nothing is done here. This remains a MAJOR problem, especially with the mechanics of "Judgements of the Wise" being unclear (is the retadin always one of the 3 receiving mana?). Though admittedly it's too early to tell how it will be with the reduced dependency on Consecration giving us less of a mana drain.

-We currently operate with a bugged JoW giving ~85% mana back. If this is fixed it could be another big blow.

-No mana/mana regen talent/conversion despite the fact that we're now going to be sharing itemization with Warriors and Deathknights?
Retribution Aura:
-There's a high probability the "+2% damage increase" will not be listed as an effect of Retribution Aura tooltip (as it's the case with all talented buffs at the moment) leading to yet again "invisible buffs that are not recognized", one of the main complaints of all retadins.
"Up to 3 group or raid member" effects:
-This sounds completely random. If it really is 3/25 it will feel like yet another diluted buff that's not actually widely recognized as a buff... which certainly does not help our case. It's the enhancement shaman (heavy focused buffs) vs Retadin (3% crit to the whole raid that's not directly noticed) argument all over again.

-As a minimum, it should "always" affect the retadin.

The ???:

(Rumor) Seal of Light/Wisdom scaling with AP/SD (Source):
-Unless it's such a massive change that would allow you to recharge your mana bar in a few heavy 2h hits (which I highly doubt), having to drop your damage seal to regain mana is still a very dumb mechanic (see enhancement shamans). Time will tell.
Hammer of Wrath mana cost reduced, damage increased (probably due to folding in JotC effects), +50% crit chance via talents, now usable on targets below 35% health (from 20% health).:
-The jury is still out on this one. Talented, you should have an average crit rate of 70-80% with HoW now. Impossible to tell for now if it will be worthwhile without knowing all the facts.

-Using it at 35% health is welcome, though it won't really work as a finisher at that amount of health in PvP.

General Conclusion/Note:

While we do receive a lot of fixes in Wotlk, the majority of those were expected "class repairs" that come as no surprise and should have been done (in many cases) years ago.

With that in mind, it's evident that actual "revolutionary" changes/buffs that add to the class/spec are much fewer than initially assumed.

I still think the spec will suffer greatly from being more widely recognized unless some significant, clearly visible, raid buff/utility is added. Additionally, the enlightened judgements/judgement of the pure holy spec buff if it actually goes through to live will be catastrophic to retadins trying to justify their raid spot say the least.

*Addendum: I just noticed that a holy specced paladin can very comfortably also get the +2% damage aura. If these changes go through, I have to really question the point of a retadin in a raid, since there's no benefit we have now that can't be mirrored by a holy paladin.

*Addendum 2: I had forgot about the "Swift Retribution" talent (adds +3% haste to ret aura), still, that is too little of a buff considering a holy paladin can give all other ret benefits.

Tyrannix · 07/20/08, 7:33 PM

I believe you forgot the 3% haste talent we also have linked with Ret aura, Avitus. You are right though, 3% haste isn't enough to give us a raid spot, unless we start doing as much damage as a rogue.

Antiock · 07/20/08, 8:48 PM

Actually, reports are suggesting that Art of War is massively overpowered. The "double damage" seems to be applied after every other multiplier, and its not the same as a critical strike. There have been Judgements of Command for well over 10k on stunned targets.

Also, even without Art of War, judgements are doing a lot more damage, and with Judgements of the Wise's mana return scaling with damage, even if it is random it's not going to be negligible. Same with the heal from Divine Storm.

Lawgivah · 07/20/08, 8:56 PM

So, I took your advice and we loaded up Quartz. Based on Quartz, HoW does NOT reset the swing timer and I had multiple HoWs followed immediately by a melee attack.

Two things to keep in mind...
1) LD_50 Swing Timer was borking out... based on that, Quartz is the only real measure. Well, besides my own eyes.
2) It is difficult to test on the beta, because everything dies extremely fast... this was tested on Soulreaper Elites just above Shatt.

EDIT: If anyone can reproduce our findings, I would appreciate it... I think this is a major, noteworthy change.

flyingtoastr · 07/20/08, 9:01 PM

Originally Posted by Lawgivah

I think this is a major, noteworthy change.

That's putting it a little mildly. HoW is now essential in any ret pally's cycle below 35%. Thanks!

Saviouress · 07/20/08, 9:02 PM

Try to go into the Blasted Lands and test it on those Mobs around the Dark Portal Zone, because they cannot die.

I also got a question for the Hammer of Wrath do you have to play as a Slammer or is there any reset to the Swing Timer with the Hammer of Wrath the way it is on the live servers, I looked for an answer to this question, but I wasn't very succesfully.

Thanks

Lawgivah · 07/20/08, 9:22 PM

Quick follow up... We went to Blasted Lands and tested with the "weapon skill" mobs. Same results, we even casted HoW at different points during the swing CD. As I stated before, we have found that HoW does NOT reset the swing timer and therefore a critical part of our dps cycle (under 35%).

I would prefer that someone double checks with their own testing, but this is what we have found.

EDIT: "I also got a question for the Hammer of Wrath do you have to play as a Slammer or is there any reset to the Swing Timer with the Hammer of Wrath the way it is on the live servers, I looked for an answer to this question, but I wasn't very succesfully."

Can you re-ask your question, I am not sure I quite follow. Thanks mate.

Kinmaul · 07/20/08, 9:28 PM

I think Avitus raises a lot of great points about holy paladins fulfilling key ret duties in raids, but as long as our dps is competative I don't see us getting left out. We still bring a fair amount of utility in a raid save (possibly two now if you count the new LoH), and hand/blessings. Also there is the healing from Divine Storm and the mana return from Judgements of the Wise, but I'm holding off on them until I get some more information/data.

I could be overreacting, but I'm freaking out about the loss of Precision. My biggest concern is if they introduce Wrath talents early like they did with the BC talents. This would screw over a lot of raiding ret paladins as most of us count on that 3% hit to reach the cap. I'm probably going to try and snag a few hit pieces if they are going to rot/offspec (that I've previously had no interest in) just in case. I'm even more annoyed now how hit starved most of our sunwell gear is. ><

Aeverius · 07/20/08, 9:29 PM

Originally Posted by Saviouress

Try to go into the Blasted Lands and test it on those Mobs around the Dark Portal Zone, because they cannot die.

I also got a question for the Hammer of Wrath do you have to play as a Slammer or is there any reset to the Swing Timer with the Hammer of Wrath the way it is on the live servers, I looked for an answer to this question, but I wasn't very succesfully.

Thanks

I am assuming this means "Does Hammer of Wrath currently reset your swing timer?" The answer is yes, which is why it is of great interest if it has been changed in beta.

Pyralissa · 07/20/08, 9:40 PM

A sheathbot Paladin wont have Judgments of the Pure (or at least wont have more than 2/5). That's beyond the problems of Sheath being generally poor (for a variety of reasons) for a Holy Paladin and the loss of Beacon of Light (which is probably still going through some changes). I think the complaints are unfounded, a Sheathbot Paladin wont have an incentive to keep Judging so while you can get the 2% damage for the raid out of a Holy Paladin you are losing extra mana regen and 3% haste. So if you want your Sheathbot Paladin to provide the raid with a Judgment you'll need a Retribution Paladin to keep it up.

I also think the assumption that you will take a Holy Paladin before any other spec is a relic of older days. With Druids becoming suitable single target healers in addition to their excellent hots and now a non-cooldown AOE, there's no reason you should be required to take a Holy Paladin anymore than you should be required to take a Retribution Paladin. Most raids will probably want two blessings and two judgments and how that quota gets filled is going to be up to the raid leaders, but assuming that a Holy Paladin somehow has the shoe in while Protection and Retribution are the outliers just seems incorrect.

JettJaguar · 07/20/08, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by Kinmaul

I could be overreacting, but I'm freaking out about the loss of Precision. My biggest concern is if they introduce Wrath talents early like they did with the BC talents. This would screw over a lot of raiding ret paladins as most of us count on that 3% hit to reach the cap. I'm probably going to try and snag a few hit pieces if they are going to rot/offspec (that I've previously had no interest in) just in case. I'm even more annoyed now how hit starved most of our sunwell gear is. ><

Is it confirmed as gone or is it trainable? Alternately, there is going to be a lot more hit on items. I saw a link to a blue 2h sword with +70 hit on it (can't find it atm) and even *a green mace* has +61 hit. It wouldn't suprise me to see a fair number of 2h weapons with large amounts of +hit just to itemize for the Fury warriors who are one-handing them. We might see it on weapons since only Fury warriors will need that much hit, while Ret pallies, Arms warriors and DKs just don't need that much.

Prinsesa · 07/20/08, 11:07 PM

Originally Posted by Saviouress

Try to go into the Blasted Lands and test it on those Mobs around the Dark Portal Zone, because they cannot die.

I also got a question for the Hammer of Wrath do you have to play as a Slammer or is there any reset to the Swing Timer with the Hammer of Wrath the way it is on the live servers, I looked for an answer to this question, but I wasn't very succesfully.

Thanks

I believe the question was: Does Hammer of Wrath reset the swing timer on Live, and if it does, does that mean I have to play it like a "Slammer" (PvE Arms Warrior), as in timing the HoW to go off just after the white swing to minimize swing timer loss?

The answer is:
Yes, HoW does reset the swing timer in 2.4.3 Live.
Yes, you should time the HoW like an Arms Warrior times his Slams.

However, that still doesn't guarantee that HoW is actually worth using. Slam uses weapon damage, so losing 0.5 seconds from your white hit to land basically a second white hit is a DPS increase.

HoW uses a base amount of damage, and without any spell damage on our current gear, does not get an increase. What this means is that even if you timed the HoW perfectly, the fact that your white swing deals significantly more damage may still make HoW an inferior choice for using in a rotation.