I could be overreacting, but I'm freaking out about the loss of Precision. My biggest concern is if they introduce Wrath talents early like they did with the BC talents. This would screw over a lot of raiding ret paladins as most of us count on that 3% hit to reach the cap. I'm probably going to try and snag a few hit pieces if they are going to rot/offspec (that I've previously had no interest in) just in case. I'm even more annoyed now how hit starved most of our sunwell gear is. ><
Many, many classes got this same nerf, either having their hit% talent removed or scaled down. In exchange, Improved Faerie Fire gives 3% hit to everyone. With a Balance Druid in the raid, it's a wash. Without one, we still need less +hit than almost everyone else.
You get 30% of your attack power as +spellpower, so it does get an increase (assuming you take Sheath)
I was still referring to Live as I said this. Apologies if it was not clear.
I do agree that between getting ~80% crit rates with Sanctified Wrath (among other things), getting scaling via Sheath and no longer resetting the swing timer, HoW is going to be a standard part of the rotation come WOTLK.
I was still referring to Live as I said this. Apologies if it was not clear.
I do agree that between getting ~80% crit rates with Sanctified Wrath (among other things), getting scaling via Sheath and no longer resetting the swing timer, HoW is going to be a standard part of the rotation come WOTLK.
Not to mention that we are going to have some extra space in our "rotations" due to the loss of the re-seal GCD and the possibility that consecrate is just too expensive to use (depending on the efficiency of Judgments of the Wise). Of course, we will have to cram in Divine Storm, but are replacing an 8-9 sec CD with a 10 sec CD.
I apologize for not adding anything meaningfull to the discussion, but could we please keep current and Wotlk discussions seperate? This thread is getting very confusing with posts alternating between live and beta abilities (see the HoW discussion in the last few posts). 192 pages is a lot of information allready, cluttering it up with beta discussion does not help new players who are looking for information.
Please use either the Wrath discussionthread, or maybe make a new one dedicated to ret paladins in Wotlk. Then again I'm not sure if it would be all that helpfull if we had a Wotlk thread for every class and spec, doubling the amount of threads in this forum.
Honestly we've beaten to death pretty much everything that has to do with ret in TBC. The only real things left to talk about are Wrath changes. I personally see no problem continuing very ret specific discussions here.
Actually, reports are suggesting that Art of War is massively overpowered. The "double damage" seems to be applied after every other multiplier, and its not the same as a critical strike. There have been Judgements of Command for well over 10k on stunned targets.
Also, even without Art of War, judgements are doing a lot more damage, and with Judgements of the Wise's mana return scaling with damage, even if it is random it's not going to be negligible. Same with the heal from Divine Storm.
I think Art of War itself is working correctly, it's the extra damage coming from Spell Damage and AP that is likely the issue. The highest damage I've seen in a Screen Shot is 21,000+. So even taking out the Art of War of the equation, you're still looking at over 10K crits on a stunned target while using wings. Obviously they need to fix the co-efficents Judging Command uses. If the Art of War stays like it is now, I'm thinking they'll have to scale it way back which will directly affect how much mana is returned by JoWise.
I think one of the biggest unknowns that is out there - is that - is RET now a much more viable DPS / CC class - if we were 60% of Rogue in TBC - what will we be in WotLK - 80% of a rogue as hypothesized. When people call for Heroic 5 mans and ask for DPS, will RET get the same respect as others in WotLK? I think there are still a lot of unknowns until we get some true testing going on. Fundamentally, I agree with Avitus, there are some flaws in the UGLY as he pointed out. Do you really need a ret pally if you have one of the holy pallies do a X/0/X build? If talents trees remain the same, the answer lies in question - how much parity is there for a ret paladin vs. other dps.
I remember reading a quote from a Guild application guidelines that said this about mages .
Mage (must understand that mages are mostly useless beyond sheeps and food tables...you probably won't get a stacked group...but must be capable of pushing the class to the max to deserve the slot)
- And there are many others like this one about mages that have very strong opinions about classes and utility. Will WotLK end these types of biases and create parity - unknown. I play a RET and I get invited to most groups and raids only because I am T6 out with some sunwell. My ret friends who are T5 and below NEVER get invited now - so I hope these future unknowns addresses these issues of class parity.
The important thing to remember is that in addition to larger DPS and utility Ret pallys are also finally bring CC to instances (Repentance). This alone will go a long way towards making us more desired for smaller groups.
They just have to change Art of War to flat 20% damage increase to Judgments after CS. The Problem with this made up numbers ....everything stacked etc ... if you change the scaling of judgments your highst numbers on stuned targets with wings would become normal, maybe 3k but normal judgments would become terrible with 300 damage or something.
Edit: 20k damage seems to be a bug, the numbers should normally be 9-10k. Without this crazy Art of War it would be something like 5k and its ok if you have everything up.
I think a more interesting (and more in line with the way they're trying to "shake up" rotations) would just be to give CS a chance to reset the cooldown timer on Judgement. Now that you don't have to reseal after a Judgement it would be a nice little buff that doesn't make scaling Judgements nerfworthy.
I think a more interesting (and more in line with the way they're trying to "shake up" rotations) would just be to give CS a chance to reset the cooldown timer on Judgement. Now that you don't have to reseal after a Judgement it would be a nice little buff that doesn't make scaling Judgements nerfworthy.
This seems like it would be a substantial nerf to the power of the talent though. Given the 6 second CS CD and the 8-10s CD on Judgement, it seems that the times when this proc would give you a substantial benefit would be very few, as you would be gaining some few seconds. Compared to Sword and Board, which gives a chance on Devastate to reset Shield Slam, you have a no CD ability which is often spammed resetting a CD ability. That's not to say a change of this sort wouldn't be interesting, but two cooldown abilities don't interact very well like this, in my opinion.
Judgements have no global cd so it would be the same as Art of War. You just have to judge before CS and if it procs just judge again for the same burst in the same time but with more buttons involved^^.
Edit: 20k damage seems to be a bug, the numbers should normally be 9-10k. Without this crazy Art of War it would be something like 5k and its ok if you have everything up.
These are suposedly multiplicative resulting in a 1.4498x modifier. So then we get 2197 Base judgement damage.
So on a stunned target that would make 4394.
Then add Art of War and you get 8788
Then have it Crit (lets not forget the 15% more crit dmg) and you get about 18902 damage.
Judgements have no global cd so it would be the same as Art of War. You just have to judge before CS and if it procs just judge again for the same burst in the same time but with more buttons involved^^.
But saving Judgement for just before you CS just so you can feel like AoW is giving you some substantial benefit seems unreasonable. More likely you continue to judge on cooldown, and the benefit varies between 10s and 1s off each Judgement CD. It's not the same burst at all in many situations, and is less overall damage in every situation. Art of War essentially gives you two Judgements per cooldown when it procs, so a refresh of the Judgement CD is only equal to that power if you CS the instant after you judge, which is not often the case, given the conflicting cooldown lengths.
I believe the question was: Does Hammer of Wrath reset the swing timer on Live, and if it does, does that mean I have to play it like a "Slammer" (PvE Arms Warrior), as in timing the HoW to go off just after the white swing to minimize swing timer loss?
The answer is:
Yes, HoW does reset the swing timer in 2.4.3 Live.
Yes, you should time the HoW like an Arms Warrior times his Slams.
However, that still doesn't guarantee that HoW is actually worth using. Slam uses weapon damage, so losing 0.5 seconds from your white hit to land basically a second white hit is a DPS increase.
HoW uses a base amount of damage, and without any spell damage on our current gear, does not get an increase. What this means is that even if you timed the HoW perfectly, the fact that your white swing deals significantly more damage may still make HoW an inferior choice for using in a rotation.
Thank you very much that was exactly what I wanted to know .
But saving Judgement for just before you CS just so you can feel like AoW is giving you some substantial benefit seems unreasonable. More likely you continue to judge on cooldown, and the benefit varies between 10s and 1s off each Judgement CD. It's not the same burst at all in many situations, and is less overall damage in every situation. Art of War essentially gives you two Judgements per cooldown when it procs, so a refresh of the Judgement CD is only equal to that power if you CS the instant after you judge, which is not often the case, given the conflicting cooldown lengths.
Correct, but AoW as it is currently is stupid overpowered to the point where it is going to be nerfed. A ton of classes are getting abilities that refresh durations/cooldowns and I think it would be a fun little talent to have anyway.
Sheathbot (47/0/24) healing spec removes a lot of Ret's utility. The Holy Pally can get the 40 yard aura with Ret (buffing pretty much everyone), and gets most of Holy goodies (missing Beacon and 6% haste).
If Ret can only bring 3% haste (within 30 yards) and some mana/health returns over the healer, they better have pretty good dps to make it worth it.
Correct, but AoW as it is currently is stupid overpowered to the point where it is going to be nerfed. A ton of classes are getting abilities that refresh durations/cooldowns and I think it would be a fun little talent to have anyway.
And I'd be fine if they adjust it, I just don't think that using two abilities on similar cooldowns for a scheme like that is very useful. We don't have a spammable ability to use to refresh a cooldown ability or any debuffs we can refresh the durations on. I agree that this scheme they have going for some other classes in interesting in that it makes you think about what you're doing instead of spamming your rotation for 6 minutes or however long, but I don't think that specific change will work very well for Ret Paladins. I would be unsurprised if they altered AoW since it does allow for some extreme burst as it stands, but I don't think CS refreshing Judgement(or the reverse) is the way to go with it.
Correct, but AoW as it is currently is stupid overpowered to the point where it is going to be nerfed. A ton of classes are getting abilities that refresh durations/cooldowns and I think it would be a fun little talent to have anyway.
I dont feel its overpowered. For Raid dps its unimportant if you get sometimes big numbers and for pvp there are to many things that must happen. I think its just poorly designed so people if hit by this cry overpowered even if it rarely happens.
Just imagine a seal that deals 100k dmage but has only 0,0001 ppm^^. Is it good or bad?
Sheathbot (47/0/24) healing spec removes a lot of Ret's utility. The Holy Pally can get the 40 yard aura with Ret (buffing pretty much everyone), and gets most of Holy goodies (missing Beacon and 6% haste).
If Ret can only bring 3% haste (within 30 yards) and some mana/health returns over the healer, they better have pretty good dps to make it worth it.
Look at the tree. We're going to be doing some damn good DPS.
Also remember that sheathbot is useless outside of that ret utility in a raid, making it the "weak" holy spec.
Originally Posted by Argavaine
I dont feel its overpowered. For Raid dps its unimportant if you get sometimes big numbers and for pvp there are to many things that must happen. I think its just poorly designed so people if hit by this cry overpowered even if it rarely happens.
Just imagine a seal that deals 100k dmage but has only 0,0001 ppm^^. Is it good or bad?
Bad. The reason WoW fails as an esport is because everything is so dependant on RNG (for example, on my warrior I lost a game last night against a druid/warrior team simply because the druid got a 3/100 RNG roll and resisted a Piercing Howl and got away to drink). The same thing applies to PvE, if you can't sustain good DPS 100% of the time you don't belong in a raid.
Bad. The reason WoW fails as an esport is because everything is so dependant on RNG (for example, on my warrior I lost a game last night against a druid/warrior team simply because the druid got a 3/100 RNG roll and resisted a Piercing Howl and got away to drink). The same thing applies to PvE, if you can't sustain good DPS 100% of the time you don't belong in a raid.
Yes bad is the wright answer so is Art of War not overpowered but sometimes random powerful -> change it to flat 15-20% damage increase for the next Judgement after CS and its done.
That would meen 1500 base damage without any buffs uncrit. This guy pulled this number just out of his ^^ in order to show how you can reach 18k.
My Judgements do 230-250 damage now without any buffs.
That's with current scaling. I don't see much problem in hitting 1500 base when the scaling changes to 70% of spellpower on top of 30% of normal weapon damage.
Also, Art of War in itself isn't overpowered the same way letting JoComm do double on stunned targets isn't overpowered.
What -is- overpowered is getting all the doublers (including a crit) on top of each other.
07/21/08, 12:16 AM
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