Have to agree with toaster here. There hasn't been anything to really talk about for ages, so using this thread for more detailed breakdowns of what the coming expansion will mean for ret specifically sounds like the best course of action.


I've finally hopped on the beta myself and will be giving things a spin when I get time.

My initial impression trying out some rotations with Divine Storm is that it feels a lot more responsive/fun/interactive, especially since you don't have to reseal every time you judge anymore or bother with getting bogged down using consecration and waiting for the damage ticks to have their effect.

It feels like every ability is giving back instant gratification with rewarding flashy numbers that we all love to see. Having an additional instant attack to spam seems to be doing the trick.



A few questions that have accumulated however and might be good theorycrafting targets to pursue:


-Judgement of the Wise: Has anyone managed to get some testing on "Judgement of the Wise" in a group/raid? I'm really interested to know whether it's ambiguous wording that means "paladin + 2 random people receive mana" or actually "3 completely random people from the raid receive mana".

Also worth considering:

Live: The current Sanctified Jugement talent restores 80% of Seal cost every time you judge (SoC without benediction = 280 mana) = 224 mana ever ~8 seconds = 140mp5.

Wotlk beta: Assuming it always gives 20% to the paladin with 3 or more people in a group/raid (which is pretty much any activity in wow nowadays: raids, instances, arena, battlegrounds), you would have to push out average judgements of 1120 to break even with the old talent, which sounds promising. Obviously for soloing you'll be getting 60% back, though you won't be buffed and will do slightly less damage with judgements.

Now all of this is based on the assumption that the paladin is always one of the recipients of judgement of the wise. If this is not the case, it throws everything upside down (we face a mana nerf vs live).




-Benediction: How useful is Benediction now that you only Seal up once every 30 seconds (instead of once every 8-9 in live) since judgements don't consume seals anymore? Lets ignore experimental seal twisting for now.

Assuming: 8 sec judgements, 6 min fight, Judgement costs 148 mana, SoC costs 280 mana

Live: You will judge and reseal 45 times + 1 judgement in the end = A total of 19408 mana spent before benediction -> 15% of that = 2911.2 mana saved in a 360 sec period (equivalent of 40.43mp5).

Wotlk beta: You will judge 46 times, but only seal up 12 times = A total of 10168 mana spent before benediction -> 15% of that = 1525.2 mana saved in a 360 sec period (equivalent of 21.18mp5).

For an already weak talent before to be cut in half in worth now, I'm really not sure if it's worth 5 talent points in wotlk. Thoughts?




-30 sec Seal refersh: Now that we're not constantly seal+judging, it's going to be important to always keep track of Seal timer and refresh every 30 seconds. Anyone sat down and worked on an efficient macro for this, or will we actually have to keep monitoring this manually (besides being tedious, it doesn't sound too efficient to do it randomly without a systematic approach).

I know there were some "do it all" macros mentioned, but they're generally not recommended for tight rotations.

Come to think about it, I wonder why they can't just make Seals a toggle able buff (since they aren't consumed by judgement anymore).




-CS vs Divine Storm vs Judge priority: Any consensus yet on priority? Seems to me that 100% holy weapon damage (Divine Storm) will outdo 110% physical weapon damage (CS), on the other hand, CS is on a shorter cooldown and you're more likely to lose more casts over a boss fight if you stagger CS, as well as CS having some nifty gimmicks such as Art of War that promote never neglecting it.

I'd guess CS still retains priority spot, however not sure: CS -> Judge -> DS vs CS -> DS -> Judge. Ideas?

I'm been thinking of modifying the drum macro my guild uses and abusing self tells. Something like:

#showttooltip
/cast Seal of the Martyr
/in 25 /w Dazanna >>Seal down in 5<<
/in 30 /w Dazanna >>Reseal<<

It would spam a bit much (when you self tell it shows 2 tells in your chat box, one outgoing and one incoming) but it would work reasonably well until someone makes a mod (which I'm positive will happen).

CS versus DS priority depends on a few things. DS will clearly do a lot more damage in normal circumstances (during AW with the extra armor ignore will CS come out ahead again?), but lacks the utility of refreshing Judgements. However, as Holy Pallys will be judging often that refresh might not be as important. But then of course CS will be giving Art of War procs, which are a rather large DPS increase. I'll run some numbers after raid tonight to figure out the raw DPS difference and we can go from there.

And naturally if Judgement is still off the GCD it can be spammed at any time and doesn't especially need to be worked into the rotation.

I have asked a few Pallies in Beta, they all have said Judgement of the Wise is only returning mana to the Pally, not the group/raid.

With the newly buffed imp BoM (50% bigger Mights), Benediction seems like a Prot Pally Filler talent nowadays. 20 mp5 isn't much to lose now that we don't need to re-Seal so much.

Unfortunately this doesn't help us further then at the moment. If it's only returning mana to the pally then it's bugged and there's no way to know how it will actually work in a group environment until this is fixed.


Btw, seems the Blizzard Talent calculator is one step ahead of the actual beta server right now as that still lists 20% imp BoM as well as Vindication and PoJ still being 3 point talents each rather than 2.



Been running around a bit more in beta, at least for soloing Judgement of the Wise seems godlike. A few heavy judgements and you're back to full mana. Question is of course it's still hard to tell what's doing damage as intended and what will still be rebalanced.

SoL/SoW seem pretty powerful now that they scale, I was able to net ~550 mana per swing, completely unbuffed.



Ah right you are.

I can probably whip up a small mod that does "alerts" (rather than dual self whisper spammage), but I'm still hoping for a more subtle/elegant solution than yet another mod.





Spec: So far this seems like the defacto PvE ret spec, though it still has 6 points not spent (which seem like they can't be put in anything except alternative role talents): WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Paladin -> Talent Calculator

Avitus for your benediction calculation, was that with the level 70 seals or the newer more expensive level 80 seals?

Actually the current beta build has all seals going to percentage of base mana costs (14% for most of them it seems). At level 70 that means your Seal of Command, Martyr, Righteousness, etc. will all cost ~413 mana. I couldn't say what your base mana will be at 80 though, rest assured it will be a fair amount more.

there is a problem with your boots and your rings with hit.

to remove the ring for a better one easy :
if you Buy [Angelista's Revenge] for 60 badge of justice.
Put sure foot enchant on your boot (+10 hit)

you reach 93 hit

if you want to reach at least 95 hit
You change your boots to [Skullshatter Warboots] ZA Hallazy(lynx)
and put a mixed gemme hit (4 or 5) on it
and strenght ,crit for the remaing gemme

or you have the boots of nightbane :

[Ironstriders of Urgency]

or the ogrilla reputation

Of course I assume you have the three point talent +3% hit.

There are better boots ,of course, I just give you the easiest to change your current one. but that the idea

Dear all,

I hope this post doesn't count as ulseless or something else but I have a question Where can I find some basic information about retribution paladins. In termsof knowledge I am a bit to far away from going to pure theorycraft like it is displayed here.

Basically what I am looking for is a thread like the "Druid megathread" or "protection" where some of the basics are explained. My main goal is to find out what gems to use I am thinking of eihter using pure strenght gems or attackpower.

I used the search engine and found: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t13249-p..._-_question_s/ but it seems to be a bit old so I am not sure if I the information are still valid

thx for helping and my apologies if I broke any forum rule

thx
Manren

i would go and take Kings (Filler Talents are personal flavour) because it´s always nice to have and could be a reason to take or not take you to a raid (10 person raids could go with 1 Pally and without Salvation Kings is the new must-have blessing, i guess)

This is pretty much the thread for that; looking through the posts in the thread itself will help you. You should use the spreadsheet linked on the first post of the thread, and also check out Rawr, which is a program that will help you with itemization, gems, and other gear questions.

That said, strength is better than attack power for gems, since strength scales with Blessing of Kings and straight AP doesn't.

I realize you are from Europe, but please try to proofread your posts for grammar and spelling as best you can, avoid smiley faces, and do not sign your posts; these things will earn you infractions and can get you banned if you are careless with them.

That was using level 70 live numbers, however it doesn't really matter what the numbers are exactly as much as to illustrate that the large part of the benefit of Benediction was saving the more expensive Sealing up cost rather than the cheap Judgement cost.


Now that we're only going to be Sealing up once every 30 seconds rather than once every 8-9, Benediction usefulness is cut in half. Putting 5 points in that doesn't seem to be worth it anymore to me (possibly some from the filler points you have left in the end, but that's only since there's no where useful to put them at the moment).

Thought i'd post this here as well as the talent thread :p


But for those of you who remember I used to do a Ret Dps model until it got included in Rawr. I have been messing about with that model to try and get some rough numbers. I will try to get something to download over the weekend if I get the time.

I have factored in the new abilites and the estimates we have for all the coefficients. It assumes Judgement/CS/DS are spammed on CD (i know its not possible, but not worked out the cycle time yet). I have also made a few assumptions which i'll explain when i post the model

Some rough numbers i got from a level 70 paladin in the best of the best gear fully potted, fully raid buffed are:-

SoC 2750
SoB 3000
SoR 3470 :p (it is clear the AP coefficient part of this spell is completely off balance for RetDps)

oh and he gets like 650mp5 and 1300hp5 from JoW/L, but in the gear + WF he has like 40% haste. Kinda crazy still

These may be wrong, lots of checking to do etc

Given that seals are going to cost close to double the amount now wouldn't the two break even, making Benediction worth a little more than it is now (as JotW doesn't depend on cost like Sanctified Judgement did)?

Personally I'll be picking up Imp. Retribution Aura because of it's big increase in damage and scaling through spell power. I'm sure it will come out to be a healthy boost of threat for tanks. The other two points I might just put into Vindication, which while not great, I can't really see where else they might have an impact.

Well 280 -> 413 is not necessarily double, but semantics aside, it still doesn't break even considering you'll be sealing up only once in a 30 sec period rather than ~3.75 times (at 8 sec intervals).

I think we can conclude that Benediction never really was that great to being with and has become even more mediocre. Spending points in it remains a case of "well there's nothing else that matters with the last 5 points".


I half expect them to still have something in the works for high end ret tree, possibly to use up those 6 left over points.

I've used 5/10/46 for months instead of 5/8/48 and I didn't even notice the loss of benediction

Is seal twisting still possible in wotlk Beta? or has it been "fixed" ?

Using the rotations located here.

CS Priority - 2 CS, 1 DS in 12 seconds.
2x(2025) + 1x(2486) = 6536 damage over 12 seconds = 544.66 dps

DS Priority - 3 CS, 2 DS in 20 seconds.
3x(2025) + 2x(2486) = 11047 damage over 20 seconds = 552.35 dps

FC FS - 5 CS, 3 DS in 31 seconds.
5x(2025) + 3x(2486) = 17583 damage over 31 seconds = 567.19 dps

Art of War would favor CS Priority.

Hey guys,

I have updated my old Ret Dps Model based on the information we have so far on beta:-

jwhalley Profile, jwhalley Details - FileFront.com

Notes:-

1) Data is based on a level 70 paladin with level 70 spells and talents based on wowhead (ie imp Bom = 50%)
2) I have ripped big chunks out like the mana regen calculations, but item comparison etc is all still there
3) S/JoR is included - Note S/JoR damage assumes 5 points in Seals of the Pure. I forgot to include this as a selectable talent
4) A lot of the calculations are guesstimates based on testing, they are not confirmed, but are fairly close. JoC/JoB especially has some issues atm


Assumptions:-

1) Rotation based on 5CS + 3DC per 31 seconds & Judgement on 8 second CD
2) On beta divine storm is doing physical damage but tooltip says holy. I have set it in the model as 100% holy damage subject to avoidance and partial resists
3) Mobs are classes as level 73 with 7700 armor and partial resist rates of 4% average

Enjoy, and let me know of problems, wrong assumptions. This version has not been rogorously checked.

Hi bellator, I downloaded your spreadsheet and it's very well done.

However...A few concerns: selecting Draenei, the total DPS seems to be 2837 but doing the math it should be 2836. Anyway, my question is in regard of Draenei vs Human Total DPS. Human sits at real 2837 doing more damage in everything but Judgement of Command. What is leading Draenei to have more damage with JoC? And, did you factor in the expertise racial human bonus (-1.25% parry and dodge - ok, parry doesn't count in PvE)?

Thanks in advance.

Weapon expertise is factored in as is the draenai +1% hit. The Weapon expertise is proving more benefical for all abilites except JoC which is why the human is ahead. However when it comes to JoC weapon expertise is useless but hit is still valuable so the draenai is coming out on top here.

About last 6 tallent points:
I'm not in the beta myself, but it looks like Seals of the pure are good choice, atleast according to all the numbers provided where SoR is superior to SoC/SoB.