Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 199

JohnLocke · 08/03/08, 12:54 AM

Originally Posted by Rustik

Since Judgements are on the GBC now, I'm trying to figure out a decent rotation for them with CS and DS. Here's my problem, I'm getting a lot of traffic jamming. Normally, you'd want to use the hardest hitters first, but there's a little snafu in there. If I delay my crusader strike half a second to use judgement first, what I end up with is

0.0-Judge
1.5-Crusader strike
7.5-Crusader strike is up, but I'm going to wait...
8.0 Judge
9.5 Crusader strike.

If you follow this iteration, you get that every single time, effectively making your crusader strike an 8 second cooldown. The same thing will happen with DS/Judgements. To solve this, I decided to favor the short cooldowns first, to help separate everything, but I still run into a huge traffic jam at about 43 seconds. I'm only doing this with a single column of numbers in notepad, so perhaps I'm going about it wrong.

I have a feeling I'll just need to minimize the damage done at the jam, perhaps by getting the averge damage of each ability and how much of an impact a delay has on the dps of said ability. A 1 second delay on DS is a 10% hit to that abilities dps, and more to Judgement, and even more to CS. I was hoping to avoid the number crunch (just this time).

I'm even debating using a 9 second judgement instead, to see if it helps seperate things a bit more. Heck with a 10 second judgement Your ds and judgement would always be 1.5 seconds away from each other, and CS would be the only little bastard bugging up the mix.

Apologies if I missed something, but having judgements on the GCD now doesn't change anything because we don't have to reseal now. A 9 second judgement rotation has been the standard for some time now.

flyingtoastr · 08/03/08, 1:07 AM

Judgements aren't technically on a 9 second rotation (all those people who only spec 1 into improved Judgement are just silly). Rather Judgements are limited by the GCD incurred from resealing. For theorycraft and WWS analyzing this just so happens to line up relatively nicely with a 9 second cooldown, just as CS lines up nicely with 6.5 seconds and Exorcism is often about 18 seconds. In practice a good ret pally might actually go under 9 seconds if he is pushing his cooldowns very hard, especially if he gets multiple lusts (seals are spells so you get shorter GCD's for Judgement while lusted!).

Regardless, the real limiting factor currently is that Judgements do craptastic damage. With the scaling damage it is entirely possible that they will outdamage CS and maybe even DS depending on how weapon damage scales in relation to Attack Power.

Xequecal · 08/03/08, 4:18 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Judgements aren't technically on a 9 second rotation (all those people who only spec 1 into improved Judgement are just silly). Rather Judgements are limited by the GCD incurred from resealing. For theorycraft and WWS analyzing this just so happens to line up relatively nicely with a 9 second cooldown, just as CS lines up nicely with 6.5 seconds and Exorcism is often about 18 seconds. In practice a good ret pally might actually go under 9 seconds if he is pushing his cooldowns very hard, especially if he gets multiple lusts (seals are spells so you get shorter GCD's for Judgement while lusted!).

Regardless, the real limiting factor currently is that Judgements do craptastic damage. With the scaling damage it is entirely possible that they will outdamage CS and maybe even DS depending on how weapon damage scales in relation to Attack Power.

With ret talents giving +25% crit and +25% crit damage to judgments and not melee/CS, it would take some incredibly skewed gear scaling to push CS ahead of the new judgments. Judgment of Blood is 45% weapon damage + 36% of AP + 58% of SP. With Sheath of Light converting 33% of AP into SP, this translates into 45% weapon damage + 55% of AP. Crusader Strike is normalized to 3.3 speed so it's 110% weapon damage plus 23.5% of AP.

Average CS damage from a Paladin with a BG greatsword, 2000 AP, 25% crit is 1423. That's before any mitigation. Average beta JoB damage with the same stats is 2488, and it's not affected by armor.

Rustik · 08/03/08, 2:36 PM

I think toastr was referring to the current craptastic damage of judgements on live, not the retooled WotLK numbers, which I agree are quite nice.

And something I never thought about with crusader strike, is it really 110%WD + (3.3*AP/14)? Or is it 110%(WD+(3.3*AP/14))? If it's the second one, it uses 25.8% AP instead.

And Sheath of light is 30%. Judgements receive 53.4%.

Not that nitpicking the math changes the results, judgements still hit harder than CS.

Is Divine Storm still counting as physical damage? I was wondering if anyone figured out whether it's weapon damage or a percentage of weapon damage yet.

GSH · 08/03/08, 3:00 PM

Originally Posted by Rustik

INot that nitpicking the math changes the results, judgements still hit harder than CS.

Yes, but CS will proc a Seal in WotLK, while Judgement will not. So the real comparison is JoB vs CS + SoB.

Rustik · 08/03/08, 5:39 PM

A valid point. Time for some math. If I can get a check that would be appreciated. The crit chance is where I'm not sure I missed something.

Completely unbuffed, without even a blessing, my pally sits at 1754 AP, 23.81% crit, and the merciless Glad Greatsword, so 3.600 swing speed weapon. She'll end up with 562.2 Spellpower with Sheath of Light.

White damage: 864-1061 = 962.5 Average physical
Seal of Blood: 302.4-371.4 = 336.9 Average Holy
Crusader Strike: 110%(((365+594)/2)+(3.3*1754/14)) = 110%(479.5 + 413.4) = 982.2 Average Physical
Judgement of Blood: .45(365+594)/2+(.36*1754)+(.58*562.2) = 215.8 + 631.4 + 326.1 = 1173 Average holy

Now let's add the crit chance, since it will be different for judgements than CS and seals.

Judgement: 48.81% chance at 225% damage = 61.01% increase in average damage
CS and seals will see a 23.81% increase in average damage.

CS = 123.81%982.2 = 1216
Seal = 123.81%336.9 = 417.1
Judgement = 161.01%1173 = 1889

UNless I missed something in the numbers somewhere, judgement averages more damage over time than a CS/SOB proc, even before you take armor into account on your CS. Now I just need to figure out the scaling rates. more posting to ensue, unless someone beats me to it.

EDIT: (I keep timing out while making these posts :P)
Scaling rates for SOB, CS, and JOB.

WD=Base weapon damage
WS= Weapon speed

CS = 110%(WD + 3.3*AP/14) = 110%WD+25.93%AP
SOB = 35%(WD + WS*AP/14) = 35%WD+ WS * 7.143%AP
JOB = 45%WD + 36%AP + 58%(30%AP) = 45%WD + 53.4%AP

Looks like Judgements will scale much faster from your AP, whereas the CS/Seal swing will scale faster based on weapon. So, unless you have a weapon that far outshines the rest of your gear, I'm guessing JOB will scale even better than CS+SOB, especially since the CS_SoB tick is 75% physical damage, which is affected by armor.

• frmorrison · 08/03/08, 5:57 PM

You forgot that CS will proc Seals, and 23.81% crit does not mean 23.81 more damage.

Also CS is cheaper than Judgements, so that is something else to take into account.

Rustik · 08/03/08, 6:07 PM

The purpose of calculating blood and CS was to add them together.

1200+400 = a 1600 point CS+SOB.

ALso, the crit chance was added to include your average damage over an extended period of time. I realize that having more crit doesn't make your attacks hit harder.

flyingtoastr · 08/03/08, 6:16 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

You forgot that CS will proc Seals, and 23.81% crit does not mean 23.81 more damage.

Also CS is cheaper than Judgements, so that is something else to take into account.

Judgement = 5% of base mana
CS = 8% of base mana

watersrog · 08/04/08, 5:38 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

You forgot that CS will proc Seals, and 23.81% crit does not mean 23.81 more damage.

Also CS is cheaper than Judgements, so that is something else to take into account.

Actually, if crusader strike crits still do double damage, 23.81% crit would mean exactly 23.81% more damage.

Not sure about the seals though.

Rustik · 08/04/08, 6:30 PM

Seals do double damage on a crit, so it's the same way. Judgements do extra damage on a crit, so it's 48.81% * 1.25(the damage bonus).

I'm feeling kind of silly. Someone had mentioned a comparison between CS+SoB and a judgement. I did the math on it, but I think I implied that judgement should be prioritized.

Like I said in my previous post, if you favor judgement so that it never ever loses any time, you will make your crusader strike effectively an 8 second coolown. That's a 33% decrease in dps.

Using the numbers from the above calculations:
CS+SoB = 272.2 DPS
2 second loss = 204.1 DPS
Judgement = 236.1 DPS

I knew I was forgetting something in my last post! I forgot to include the cooldowns! Ha! Granted, 75% of the CS+SoB swing is physical, so let's assume a 30% armor reduction.

70%(CS)+SoB = 211.4 DPS
2 second loss = 158.5 DPS

I don't think the extra 24.7 DPS that judgement does over CS+SoB is worth nearly double that in your crusader strike if you delay it 2 seconds every time. Better to favor CS to separate the cooldowns so they only run into each other every 24 seconds or so. 1 second loss every 3 judgements is better than getting 3 CS when you should have 4.

Rustik · 08/04/08, 7:07 PM

What do you guys think? in 43 seconds, I got 4 DS, 7 CS, and 5 judgements.

If there's any formatting you'd like me to do to make it easier to read, spout it out, I did it in notepad.

-4.5 : CS
-3.0 : Judge
-1.5 : DS
+0.0 : 1.5 second delay (Rotation Starts)
+1.5 : CS
+3.0 : 2 second delay
+5.0 : Judge
+6.5 : 1 second delay
+7.5 : CS
+9.0 : DS
+10.5: 2.5 second delay
+13.0: Judge
+14.5: CS
+16.0: 3 second delay
+19.0: DS
+20.5: CS
+22.0: Judge
+23.5: 3 second gap
+26.5: CS
+28.0: 1 second delay
+29.0: DS
+30.5: Judge
+32.0: .5 second delay
+32.5: CS
+33.5: 4.5 second gap
+38.5: CS
+40.0: Judge
+41.5: DS
+43.0: Rotation ends, repeat

DonGuapo · 08/05/08, 12:33 AM

Minor nitpick Rustik, but at "+32.0: CS" shouldn't that be "+32.5: CS"? That would make it a 43 second rotation.

watersrog · 08/05/08, 3:05 AM

A question for those who tested beta: from what you've seen, will the mana pool and especially mana regeneration allow DS to be spammable on every cooldown along with CS and Judgement without running into mana problems? 20% of base mana seem a bit high.

Prinsesa · 08/05/08, 3:39 AM

Warning! Back-of-the-envelope math inc:

Base stats:
2291 AP
687.3 SP
1126 weapon damage
3.50 weapon speed
34.83% melee crit rate
54.36% Judgement crit rate

Level 70 mana costs:
Divine Storm: 591 mana (20% of 2953)
Crusader Strike: 236 mana (8% of 2953)
Judgement: 148 mana (5% of 2953)

If we use Rustik's rotation: 4 Divine Storms, 7 Crusader Strikes and 5 Judgements every 42.5 seconds is a drain of -559.33 MP5

Each JoW proc with our own stats is worth 268 mana. Assuming we proc it every 4 seconds on the dot, that's a gain of 335.06 MP5, which reduces our deficit to just -224.27 MP5

If we assume Seal/Judgement of Blood is used:
Non-crit JoBs deal 2090.3 damage

5 Judgements per 42.5 seconds
2.71 crit Judgements, 2.28 non-crit Judgements
(2090.3 damage * 2.71 crits * 225%) + (2090.3 damage * 2.28 hits) / 42.5 seconds = 413.02 DPS

Judgement of the Wise: 60% of 413.02 DPS will return 1239.06 MP5. If we split that in 3, we get a gain of 413.02 MP5 while in a party/raid. Our deficit of -224.27 is now completely overcome with an excess of 188.74 MP5

Conclusion: Depending on how Judgements of the Wise works, Ret Paladins will have the potential to become mana-neutral or even self-sustaining/mana-positive.

bellator · 08/05/08, 4:50 AM

Originally Posted by watersrog

a question for those who tested beta: from what you've seen, will the mana pool and especially mana regeneration allow DS to be spammable on every cooldown along with CS and Judgement without running into mana problems? 20% of base mana seem a bit high.

As Prinsesa has pointed out, it will depend on jotw mechanics, but for solo levelling, i'm currently level 74, have spent the entire time with BoM not BoW, constantly judge JoL not JoW, spam all my abilities, and the only time i've had to drink so far is when i've been standing in inns testing downranking healing coefficients.

DonGuapo · 08/05/08, 5:00 AM

The mana cost of new ranks is not just an issue for Hunters. We're looking at lowering the mana cost of all new ranks among all classes. We also intend to do some improvements to Aspect of the Viper. Not to mention mana return mechanics in each of the tree's (Invigoration, Rapid Recuperation, Hunting Party etc.)

Highlight was mine. Source: MMO-champion Blue Tracker
Hopefully this means more abilities will be reduced in mana cost including ones that are based on base mana. But if Prinsesa is correct, this shouldn't be an issue anyway.

RangerSix · 08/05/08, 10:00 AM

How about Hammer of Wrath? Does it still reset our swingtimer? Because if not, it seems like a big boost to our dps in wotlk.

Prinsesa · 08/05/08, 10:29 AM

How about Hammer of Wrath? Does it still reset our swingtimer? Because if not, it seems like a big boost to our dps in wotlk.

Reports range from "not resetting our swing timer at all" to "not resetting, but delaying the swing until the cast finishes".

In either case, yes it does indeed look like it's going to hit ridiculously hard compared to its current piss-poor performance.

DarKNecross · 08/05/08, 11:01 AM

I've been messing with DPS Rotations for the hell of it, and I've found the best rotation I can think of.
It's a 36sec rotation.
Judgement->Crusader Strike->Storm->Cons->Crusader Strike->Judgement->Crusader Strike->Storm->Cons->Judgement->Crusader Strike->Crusader Strike->Judgement->Storm->Cons->Crusader Strike->REPEAT
So that's 4 Judgements, 6 Crusader Strikes, 3 Storms, and 3 Consecrations.

Each column is 0.5sec.
I'm using a 9sec Judgement in image, just for ease.
Of course, there's no way to know which rotation is going to net the highest DPS without knowing the DPS breakdown for level 80. According to the napkin math I used to determine damage values for each ability, the overall DPS with this rotation would be around 2,900. Hopefully someone with a more refined DPS simulator could be able to test this rotation.

If I would explain it to someone, I'd say...
Open with Judgement. CS every cooldown, and Judge when it doesn't interrupt that. Divine Storm after every other Crusader Strike sans the first. Consecrate after every Divine Storm.

Trakor · 08/05/08, 11:32 AM

Mu'ru

My guild would rather not take me to this fight, arguing that 3 rogues + fury warrior + enh shammy will be the best set up for muru. They say that because there are several different targets in this fight, JoW wont be up and jotc wont be up all the time, while also decreasing my own dps. I mentioned vindication, imp bom, sanctity and high burst dmg as what i could bring that would be useful. Any other arguments I could use to change their mind? Overall, whats the expected dps from ret during this fight, when compared to Bruts? In other words, does ret does well here or not?

Also, to get vindication, Id have to skip benediction. And since I wont have JoW on the adds, would mana be a problem? Do you guys use exorcism and consecration as well? Whats the best rotation for this fight? Would it be better to use torch or the polearm (I do use Rawr, but in this specific fight, higher burst dmg or higher dps)? Any other tips you guys can give me?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Buliwyf · 08/05/08, 12:01 PM

As far as I am aware, you can't use exorcism on Muru. I don't know about phase 2 (we have not got that far yet) but I still doubt it. Consecrate while there are two or three adds still to kill could be useful.

From what I understand from various strats, Phase 2 is a dps race before Entropius' attacks become too strong. For this JotC or JoW would really be very useful to the whole dps side of the raid. I know our destro locks love my JotC and our shadies and hunters love JoW and say it adds a large chunk to their dps ability.

It is true our judgements are "less effective" during P1 as compared to something like Brutallus but I don't think we suffer too much in personal dps behind a rogue as compared to what raid benefits we can give in p1 in regards to judges (for the benefit of 5 people) and blessings (for the benefit of all 25).

I use full dps gear for this fight, I can't afford not to, and if I had the Felspine, I would use it ahead of the Torch. The Torch is my stamina gear weapon for Kalec, Felmyst and Twins. Granted you're human so Seal of Casino is your only option but I think Felspine is still better by some margin.

Stardusty · 08/05/08, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by DarKNecross

I've been messing with DPS Rotations for the hell of it, and I've found the best rotation I can think of.
It's a 36sec rotation.
Judgement->Crusader Strike->Storm->Cons->Crusader Strike->Judgement->Crusader Strike->Storm->Cons->Judgement->Crusader Strike->Crusader Strike->Judgement->Storm->Cons->Crusader Strike->REPEAT
So that's 4 Judgements, 6 Crusader Strikes, 3 Storms, and 3 Consecrations.
*snip*
Each column is 0.5sec.
I'm using a 9sec Judgement in image, just for ease.
Of course, there's no way to know which rotation is going to net the highest DPS without knowing the DPS breakdown for level 80. According to the napkin math I used to determine damage values for each ability, the overall DPS with this rotation would be around 2,900. Hopefully someone with a more refined DPS simulator could be able to test this rotation.

If I would explain it to someone, I'd say...
Open with Judgement. CS every cooldown, and Judge when it doesn't interrupt that. Divine Storm after every other Crusader Strike sans the first. Consecrate after every Divine Storm.

Considering Prinsesa's calculations above, wouldn't the new mana cost of consecration turn us back into mana starved hogs? Even 188mp5 excess can't sustain Consecration (Rank 6) as it stands, it will be even worse with Consecration (Rank 7) which costs 781.25 mp5.

Also, anyone thought out a rotation that includes Hammer of Wrath for sub 35%? I'd do it myself, but kinda stuck at work at the moment.

Gevlin · 08/05/08, 12:59 PM

Ret on M'uru is entirely viable. Granted we haven't killed him yet, but it seems my dps (around 1500) is plenty to stay in the top 5 or 6. Our stun can be used once per wave, and vindication works, so if you get it up on all 3 targets each wave you effectively lower the damage needed to kill it by 5 or 10%.

I would prefer to use felspine on M'uru (and any trash for that matter) as its less likely you will be clipping your swings on the quickly dying mobs. I'd also like to revisit the importance of a faster judgement rotation. For alliance especially, its EXTREMELY important to have 8s judgement available and ideally maintain a sub 9s rotation due to the 200ap proc we get from it. And with even small client/server lag, falling behind a rotation with a 9s judgement rotation can be costly.

Prinsesa · 08/05/08, 1:27 PM

Originally Posted by Stardusty

Considering Prinsesa's calculations above, wouldn't the new mana cost of consecration turn us back into mana starved hogs? Even 188mp5 excess can't sustain Consecration (Rank 6) as it stands, it will be even worse with Consecration (Rank 7) which costs 781.25 mp5.

Also, anyone thought out a rotation that includes Hammer of Wrath for sub 35%? I'd do it myself, but kinda stuck at work at the moment.

I think it's worth considering whether Consecration is even worth casting:

Still using my above stats:

Divine Storm is 1952.72 damage for 591 mana (3.3 DPM)
Crusader Strike 2017.68 damage for 236 mana (8.5 DPM)
Judgement of Blood is 3510.65 damage for 148 mana (23.7 DPM)
Consecration (rank 6) 1847.39 damage for 660 mana (2.8 DPM)