Avitus, you take a very extreme example in the case of Illidari Shatterer vs T6. This one applies to you and only you imo. For me, the difference in both is about 35 DPS since don't have precision and I'm not hit capped. The math is never that simple and no real example would give you 5 dps for 530 mana tradeoff. In your case it's 5 dps vs 530 mana and 8 points spent in protection.
With a very slow weapon wouldn't it be sometimes possible to judge earlier and recast the seal later, but still in time for the autoattack so you actually don't lose any SoC DPS?
As for int, think how much damage is 500 mana... It's really not a lot at all. Regen is something else though, but still seems to cost too much. I guess we'll haknow exactly once the spreadsheet is updated.
Originally Posted by Avitus
Also remember, the 530 mana you quote is just from one item (helm), now consider many paladins who opt out for full warrior gear, then we're talking 2k-3k mana loss for usually very minimal DPS increase.
And in practice, it's a DPS decrease since you can't keep up consecration spam or exorcism.
Before the spreadsheet comes out, some rough maths especially regarding the "2k-3k mana loss for usually very minimal DPS increase." which might make you think differently.
Let's look at Mp5/Str comparison. In terms of itemisation cost, for 1Mp5 you can get 2.5 Str. Thus for 5Mp5 you can get 12.5 Strength (which turns into 15.125 strength after Divine Strength and BoK). The spreadsheet has shown a rough dps gain per strength is around 0.6dps per strength. So for the cost of 5Mp5 you could get 15.125*0.6 = 9dps from strength.
Now, 5Mp5 is equal to 1 mana per second. Since exorcism costs 340mana this gives you 1 exorcism every 340 seconds. According to my sheet the average exororcism raid buffed will be about 1000. This means that the extra dps will be 1000/340 = 3 dps.
Now lets look at INT. To get enough mana from INT to cast 1 exorcism in a fight you need 20.6 Int (20.6*BoK*15 = 340). This Int can get you 20.6*Divine Strength*Bok = 25 Strength = 25 *0.6 = 15 dps from strength
With Exorcism been 1000 damage If the fight was 10 minutes long, the Int would only give you 1000/600 = 1.66dps. A 5 minute fight would be 3.33dps. The fight would have to be 66 seconds or less to make the Int contribution equal to the Strength contribution.
So I would say that in general the extra 2-3k mana is not worth as the dps gain you can get from not having this mana is greater than if you have it.
Of course, "Big Wins" such as 2 piece lightbringer which is about 30mp5 is a must, and one must ensure they have enough mana(regen) so they can keep their normal rotations going. However after this extra mana for exorcisms in my opinion is not worth it.
Atrius, would appreciate your feedback on the above. Please remember i'm not saying int/regen is bad, just that i feel and it appears any int/regen once you have enough to maintain a SoC/JoC/CS rotation is not needed, and i'd much prefer str to exorcisms
Originally Posted by galzohar
2) Remember when you theorycraft your base mana, to include EVERY mean of mana regen you're going to use - raid buffs, party buffs, mana pots, jow, 2pt6 and anything else I forgot. Heck many fights usually include some ticks outside the FSR too and time when you're not DPSing and thus not spending any mana.
As far as I know every source of mana/mana regen is available to turn on/off etc including shadow priests. However things that arent included are:-
1) Ticks outside the FSR - will be very minimal and very difficult to calculate
2) Mana gain from being healed - to complex to calculate and varies so much from fight to fight (I might put a box where you can fill in the hps you take but would advise leave it off)
3) Time not dpsing - model is based on being able to constantly dps. Modeling time not dpsing would be very fight specific.
Originally Posted by TinReaper
Just wondering Bellator if any of your dps calculations on your spreadsheet have included glancing blows?
and have you looked at the effect of weapon expertise?
Yes glancing blows are included. And i have looked at WE. It is great for paladins. As good as hit rating. But since there is no plate or weapons or talents which ret paladins can get to increase it, havent rushed to include it in model
Originally Posted by Lavis Knight
I was again looking at those dps cycles.
So then it is believed that you should only use Crusader Strike if you have a seal up first? If i do that will i follow the fourth example?
If you have only 1 point in improved judgement, then the 4th example is the best one to use. If you have two points in improved judgement there is a slightly different cycle which has times between judgements alternating between 8 and 10 seconds (might be worth adding it Siguard?), but the end result is the same as example 4.
About leather gear - you don't necessarily need to add it into the spreadsheet, but at least give us the ability to set up our own items if we want to. At the moment I am wearing [Chestguard of the Conniver] due to the nicely large amount of +hit it provides, and would like to know what would be an upgrade to it.
Was just about to add: Since when should we base our gear around Shade of Akama, possibly the shortest and most gimped fight in T6 content?
Take that 2000 mana (and it won't rly be that high, since i think 90% of us will go for 2-piece bonus) and spread it out over a 20m Illidan fight... I'd much prefeer the small dps increase from warrior items instead of dropping STR and Hit-rating just to push ~5 more exorsisms...
Just a quick note that was looking at leather Weapon Expertise and noticed that when Belt of 100 deaths was included in the model it came out as the best pala dps belt in game. Will try to get some leather items and WE items into the model asap
If you have only 1 point in improved judgement, then the 4th example is the best one to use. If you have two points in improved judgement there is a slightly different cycle which has times between judgements alternating between 8 and 10 seconds (might be worth adding it Siguard?), but the end result is the same as example 4.
It is just that the spreadsheets look intimidating. I would like to try to condense that information into one or two simple rules to remember if possible.
What i got from the 4th one was:
Only use Crusader Strike if you have a Seal.
If this held true and all a paladin had to do was follow that single rule then it would be much easier to remember than the entire spreadsheet. (Which is perfect for a proof for the rule, but at the same time i think when most people look at it they may be turned off by it.)
Because of this though don't you delay your judgement if it means you'll lose your SoC right as CS comes up? After all SoC>CS>JoC IIRC but SoC doesn't need casting if you don't JoC, meaning if your CS just came up, wait with the judge/reseal until after CS. Although I still wonder how you could juggle the seal time with a very slow weapon (as in, judge right after a swing, then reseal a few seconds later right before the next swing, giving you time to CS in between in certain situations).
Remember that while you need a 66s fight for that mana to be better than the DPS, in a 66s fight I would make sure I can even spend that much mana before the fight is over. The whole argument against int is in short fights mana doesn't get to the point of running out and on long fights it's insignificant compared to regen, and in both situations strength is just too good considering the portion of the DPS autoattack/SoC/CS make.
Let's take the extreme example of 5.7 DPS loss VS 530 mana. 530 is +1% to your mana (or you could calculate the exorcism damage it deals and divide by 10 minutes based on your spell damage). 5.7/1600=0.35% total DPS increase. Can 1% mana really increase your DPS by more than 0.35%? Or can the 530 mana deal more than 5.7*60*10=3420 damage? Don't think so, although you're free to verify
Just a quick note that was looking at leather Weapon Expertise and noticed that when Belt of 100 deaths was included in the model it came out as the best pala dps belt in game. Will try to get some leather items and WE items into the model asap
The endgame belt is more than likely to be [Red Belt of Battle] simply because it offers a blue gem slot, of which you need 2 to ensure that your metagem works. In the current spreadsheet [Boneweave Girdle] looks better dps-wise on paper but is actually not, due to lack of required gem slots.
The endgame belt is more than likely to be [Red Belt of Battle] simply because it offers a blue gem slot, of which you need 2 to ensure that your metagem works. In the current spreadsheet [Boneweave Girdle] looks better dps-wise on paper but is actually not, due to lack of required gem slots.
You don't need 2 blue gem sockets for a meta gem to work just two blue gems. You can put blue gems in red sockets, or probably ideally use a couple of green gems in either yellow/blue sockets to get the yellow and blue requirements sorted with two gems.
In the next version, there will be a new belt in the sockets. Belt of 100 deaths. It's literally kicking every other belt's dps to a pulp.
@Lavis Knight - simple rules:0
1) Use CS each and every 6 seconds
2) Re-Seal the moment you cast judgement
3) Do **NOT** cast judgement in the 1.5seconds before CS becomes available or in the 1.5sec after using CS
Anyone else worried about sustaining this? In Ret's current state, unless wisdom is judged on the target I can't sustain a mana pool even doing a simple rotation of crusader strikes and command judgments. Obviously on a single target boss where you're just swinging away at him it's likely wisdom will be judged and you'll keep it up with CS, but on fights where DPS is switching targets it's very possible that the other paladins will be occupied healing and will be unable to spare the global cooldown + travel time to judge it for you.
Granted you could judge it yourself, but then I wonder how much DPS you're losing doing wisdom instead of crusader. I guess maybe not more than you lose running out of mana, but that's ugly still. I want the raid to have my 3% crit debuff as well as the holy damage increase I enjoy.
Also, with regards to the discussion above about Divine Intellect, I would agree with the idea that it's generally not a useful talent for Retribution. A lot of what we're wearing is going to be "warrior gear" with no intellect, and the 10% will not make much difference when we're sporting already low values in this area. As protection, there are some bosses I can't sustain adding exorcism to my rotation when I'm tanking and getting loads of mana back, I can't imagine doing so as a Ret paladin with significantly less maximum mana and getting little to no mana from Spiritual Attunement.
So I was looking at the updated ret talents on the PTR the other day, and I noticed something about the imp SotC. I noticed that the extra 1%/2%/3% crit chance was on there, but the increased holy damage wasn't. I was kinda taken aback by that and was wondering if anyone else has noticed that, and if so, what would that do with our dps output?
Anyone else worried about sustaining this? In Ret's current state, unless wisdom is judged on the target I can't sustain a mana pool even doing a simple rotation of crusader strikes and command judgements. Obviously on a single target boss where you're just swinging away at him it's likely wisdom will be judged and you'll keep it up with CS, but on fights where DPS is switching targets it's very possible that the other paladins will be occupied healing and will be unable to spare the global cooldown + travel time to judge it for you.
Granted you could judge it yourself, but then I wonder how much DPS you're losing doing wisdom instead of crusader. I guess maybe not more than you lose running out of mana, but that's ugly still. I want the raid to have my 3% crit debuff as well as the holy damage increase I enjoy.
Right here is the main argument for wearing tier gear over warrior epics.
If you know its going to be hard keeping wisdom up on a fight (for one reason or another) you should first adjust your rotation. Cut out Judgement, downrank Seal of Command, don't use Consecration or Exorcism. Your DPS will suffer, but Crusader Strike is your first priority at all times. If you're still having problems you can chain chug mana pots instead of Haste Potions, again gimping your DPS but extending your DPS time greatly. If you have another pally in the raid to give you Salvation give yourself Blessing of Wisdom instead of Might or Kings. If worst comes to worst you can judge Wisdom yourself, but if you're in a situation where mana is that constraining I don't think it will help a great deal.
With 6500 mana (pretty much all warrior gear raid buffed) you can use Crusader Strike about 27 times (6 second cooldown assumed). Assuming absolutely no regen (worst case senario) and not using any other spells that means you can go for 2.7 minutes before running OOM. Assuming you're wearing 5/5 tier 6 instead of the warrior pieces for those slots (a net gain of 127 INT or 1905 mana, but still ignoring the regen on the legs) you would be able to get in 8 more Crusader Strikes, extending your time before OOM to 3.5 minutes.
Fortunately we do get a good deal of regen abilities (JoW, SA, BoW, Pots) to help us maintain our DPS cycles. Ideally your job as a DPS class is to run out of mana right as the boss dies. Anything that you have left over is wasted, but running out too early is bad as well.
Originally Posted by ein3360
So I was looking at the updated ret talents on the PTR the other day, and I noticed something about the imp SotC. I noticed that the extra 1%/2%/3% crit chance was on there, but the increased holy damage wasn't. I was kinda taken aback by that and was wondering if anyone else has noticed that, and if so, what would that do with our dps output?
The effects of the old Imp. SotC have been rolled into the base spell. In other words, the version that you train is now as good as the Improved one was before.
So I was looking at the updated ret talents on the PTR the other day, and I noticed something about the imp SotC. I noticed that the extra 1%/2%/3% crit chance was on there, but the increased holy damage wasn't. I was kinda taken aback by that and was wondering if anyone else has noticed that, and if so, what would that do with our dps output?
The patch notes state the talented SotC damage is now included in the base version of the spell.
So I was looking at the updated ret talents on the PTR the other day, and I noticed something about the imp SotC. I noticed that the extra 1%/2%/3% crit chance was on there, but the increased holy damage wasn't. I was kinda taken aback by that and was wondering if anyone else has noticed that, and if so, what would that do with our dps output?
Absolutely nothing because part of that change involved increasing the baseline AP/SP bonus of Crusader by the 15% formerly provided by the talent.
One other thing to note about JotC and modeling it for the spreadsheet, it is not increased by other % modifiers like sanctity aura, 2h spec, crusade and vengeance.
For JoC and sanctity aura currently the formula looks like:
(base dmg + (spell dmg + JotC) * 0.43) * 1.10
It should be:
(base dmg + spell dmg * 0.43) * 1.10 + 0.43 * JotC
This applies to all the spells that JotC effects. I'm not sure if other debuffs like misery apply to JotC damage or not.
One other thing to note about JotC and modeling it for the spreadsheet, it is not increased by other % modifiers like sanctity aura, 2h spec, crusade and vengeance.
For JoC and sanctity aura currently the formula looks like:
(base dmg + (spell dmg + JotC) * 0.43) * 1.10
It should be:
(base dmg + spell dmg * 0.43) * 1.10 + 0.43 * JotC
This applies to all the spells that JotC effects. I'm not sure if other debuffs like misery apply to JotC damage or not.
Have you tested this our with all spells. as whilst i know % modifiers don't effect the increase damage it gives consecration, i do know that % modifiers do effect the increase damage it gives SoR
Regarding this talk about not having JoW. How many fights can you think of where you won't be able to have both JotC and JoW up on the mob you are fighting (and it could potentially make a difference). The only fight i can think of is perhaps phase 2/3, but even then the healing in these phases is not exactly taking so i'm sure a pala friend wouldnt mind blowing a 1.5gcd every time you swap targets.
As far as i can see, JoW will almost always be on, and even if you can't have BoW, JoW+mana pot spam is enough to keep a SoC/JoC/CS rotation up for more than ten minutes in 0 int/mp5 gear.
I'm not anti tier gear. Getting two pieces for the nice bonus is well worth it, however getting 5/5 tier items and other ret pala gear for situational fights that challange the mana pool which hardly ever occurs seem unneccesary
Have you tested this our with all spells. as whilst i know % modifiers don't effect the increase damage it gives consecration, i do know that % modifiers do effect the increase damage it gives SoR
I tested consecration and SoC but didn't actually test JoC. I was thinking that if it worked that way for 2 very different spells they would be consistent and apply it to all of them. Next time I'm on the PTR ill try to remember to test the others.
You don't need 2 blue gem sockets for a meta gem to work just two blue gems. You can put blue gems in red sockets, or probably ideally use a couple of green gems in either yellow/blue sockets to get the yellow and blue requirements sorted with two gems.
In the next version, there will be a new belt in the sockets. Belt of 100 deaths. It's literally kicking every other belt's dps to a pulp.
Could this be when you're sitting hit-capped, and comparing Red Belt of Battle to Belt of 100 Deaths? If that were the case, I could easily see it.
If you're not hit-capped, however, the two belts shouldn't be that far off from each other. But I could see how expertise is really amazing.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
1) Ticks outside the FSR - will be very minimal and very difficult to calculate
...
3) Time not dpsing - model is based on being able to constantly dps. Modeling time not dpsing would be very fight specific.
I don't think it's that difficult... if you use wws, you can just look at "dps time", invert percentage, multiply it by fight length, and that will be rough estimation of your time spent outside of FSR AND not dpsing, assuming that time spent dpsing is normal rotation that utilizes mana. Yes, it's extremely fight-specific, and can vary, but having optional field would be good... you need to calculate total spirit anyway to include benefit of Improved Divine Spirit, for example (it's ~19 extra spelldmg for human paladins with all buffs ), then it's just simple formula ((Spirit/5) + 15) for every two seconds spent outside of FSR...
Come to think of it, wouldn't you get one full spirit regen tick right before every second Crusader Strike (if you judge and/or consecrate every second cs)? Since crusader strike has 6sec cooldown, that's one second outside of FSR, though i'm not entirely sure in regen mechanics. Quick check seems to indicate that 2sec is independent timer, and you just need to be outside of FSR to get full benefit of it the moment it ticks. That means with cs priority rotation ret paladin either gets spirit tick every second CS (if you time judgements right), or get not spirit ticks at all...
10/30/07, 1:23 AM
