Yes, in phase 2, exorcism can be used, as well as demonslaying elixirs. I understand phase 1 lasts around 6 min and im wondering if mana becomes a problem as jow wont be there. Yes, I fully expect to use several (fel)mana pots, thats fine. But by droping points from benediction to invest them in vindication, does mana last long enough in phase 1? And if so, by the time phase 2 stars, can we still push real hard or are we almost oom by then?
You should be taking enough damage during phase 1 that mana isn't a major issue. I would still suggest not going crazy on the adds though, a simple Judgement/CS rotation works fine.
My guild would rather not take me to this fight, arguing that 3 rogues + fury warrior + enh shammy will be the best set up for muru. They say that because there are several different targets in this fight, JoW wont be up and jotc wont be up all the time, while also decreasing my own dps. I mentioned vindication, imp bom, sanctity and high burst dmg as what i could bring that would be useful. Any other arguments I could use to change their mind? Overall, whats the expected dps from ret during this fight, when compared to Bruts? In other words, does ret does well here or not?
Also, to get vindication, Id have to skip benediction. And since I wont have JoW on the adds, would mana be a problem? Do you guys use exorcism and consecration as well? Whats the best rotation for this fight? Would it be better to use torch or the polearm (I do use Rawr, but in this specific fight, higher burst dmg or higher dps)? Any other tips you guys can give me?
Thanks in advance for the help.
Ret is good on this fight because you can get through the adds well enough with no ret fairly easy, but the Entropius burn is where having a ret would be the most beneficial with the Judgements. As far as I remember you cannot exorcise M'uru but Entropius is fair game.
I tried using consecration on the adds, but it lowered my overall DPS due to lost mana. AW often, and chug mana pots to get through it. Vindication is only useful if you are one of the first people to hit the mob and it procs.
Minor nitpick Rustik, but at "+32.0: CS" shouldn't that be "+32.5: CS"? That would make it a 43 second rotation
You are correct, sir! I know it's only .5 second off, but 43 sounds so much worse than 42.5 :P
I can't help but think you could fit the puzzle pieces together in a way that they'll never get in the way of eachother. Unfortunately, even if there IS a pattern, to do it you'd need to look at a 120 second rotation and shuffle stuff around. A computer program probably could...
Originally Posted by Prinsesa
I think it's worth considering whether Consecration is even worth casting:
Still using my above stats:
Divine Storm is 1952.72 damage for 591 mana (3.3 DPM)
Crusader Strike 2017.68 damage for 236 mana (8.5 DPM)
Judgement of Blood is 3510.65 damage for 148 mana (23.7 DPM)
Consecration (rank 6) 1847.39 damage for 660 mana (2.8 DPM)
Don't forget that your Crusader strike does the listed damage, PLUS a SoB proc. Using your above stats, that's 394 non-crit. That will more than make up for any damage lost due to armor.
I think it's worth considering whether Consecration is even worth casting:
Still using my above stats:
Divine Storm is 1952.72 damage for 591 mana (3.3 DPM)
Crusader Strike 2017.68 damage for 236 mana (8.5 DPM)
Judgement of Blood is 3510.65 damage for 148 mana (23.7 DPM)
Consecration (rank 6) 1847.39 damage for 660 mana (2.8 DPM)
Well, when everything is on cooldown, it should be worth casting whilst raid buffed and all, at least once in a while.
Well, during aoe it will become more efficient with each target. CS and Judgement don't hit multiple targets, of course, so with DS you have 3.3, 6.6, 9.9, 13.2. After 4 targets you don't gain anything. 5 targets or more and consecrate actually becomes more efficient, at 14 DPM.
Consecrate will still be an excellent aoe spell, but I think on single or <3-4 targets, it will be the spell of "Oh look, extra mana!! Whatever will I do with it?!"
Last edited by Rustik : 08/05/08 at 7:15 PM.
Reason: Added the DPM for consecrate at 5 targets
Yes, in phase 2, exorcism can be used, as well as demonslaying elixirs. I understand phase 1 lasts around 6 min and im wondering if mana becomes a problem as jow wont be there. Yes, I fully expect to use several (fel)mana pots, thats fine. But by droping points from benediction to invest them in vindication, does mana last long enough in phase 1? And if so, by the time phase 2 stars, can we still push real hard or are we almost oom by then?
I went with a spec that droped benediction and one point from PoJ (I miss 3/3) and I have been doing all right by chain mana potions and we havn't had any issues of falling behind both pre and post nerf. I don't Consecrate, but I do make it a point to have judgement of the crusader on all the adds as they come in (it's a personal dps loss, but I feel as though it makes up for it by boosting my parties damage).
Also vindication is very useful provided you can get the proc to occur early on a new add that the tank may switch to (for us its the sheeped target). Also having hammer of justice is also another nice ability to have for the sides if your raid group is having issues with the tanks on the side dieing. I know its already been said, but the real benefit of a ret paladin is phase 2 for the judgements on the boss. All of these should be good enough points to bring up should they say no again.
Considering Prinsesa's calculations above, wouldn't the new mana cost of consecration turn us back into mana starved hogs? Even 188mp5 excess can't sustain Consecration (Rank 6) as it stands, it will be even worse with Consecration (Rank 7) which costs 781.25 mp5.
Also, anyone thought out a rotation that includes Hammer of Wrath for sub 35%? I'd do it myself, but kinda stuck at work at the moment.
Is it not possible to downrank Consecration in WotLK?
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I think there will be more imprtant things to do.
Stacking SoVengance will be as it looks now realy viable and even taking imp Seal of Vegance and corrution in PvE builds.
Now u can use them with Seal of blood and martyr. Something like start stack 5 stacks ( procs 100% procs from strikes ). Use seal of blood after tgat Let them thick 13 secs or so then swring and strike in case u miss or dodge or refresh and get back to seal of blood. In that time u have to do 2 strikes , Judgemnet and exorcism. U will pretty much not be able to chain consecrate. And i belive ticking seal of vengance will be waaay better dps then consecration unless there are multiple mobs.
But even with that. Seal of vengance/corruption + divine storm should stack on them as well.
Even if u want to spam consecrate mana should not be problem. U will have spirital attunement with hand of sacrefice , spirit link posibly , add seal of blood on that , and + maybe chance to use divine plea. I realy dont think we will play static fights 99% of time. Plus Blessing/Judgement of wisdom + mana spring totem + many other things ( survival hunter ) and so on...
Anyway i realy like this. If that is viable it will be realy fun to play retri in pve.
Is it not possible to downrank Consecration in WotLK?
Not nearly as effectively as we can today. Downranking penalties are pretty severe from what I've experienced thus far. Like for example, Rank 7 Holy Light gets a 60.2% spell power coefficient on Live. On the Beta servers it's closer to 20%, which is pretty awful seeing as max rank spells had their coefficients roughly doubled to compensate for the spell power change.
Hi, I'm a Holy Paladin venturing a little into foreign waters, looking for some advice in comparing retribution dps gloves. I've worked with the spreadsheet, but I haven't quite figured out how to model the +5% damage bonus to Crusader Strike that appears on the Brutal Gladiator's gloves. I'm guessing Grips of Silent Justice from Akama are simply superior in stats and their two sockets, but I'm still waiting on the drop rate. Also, with my current input into the spreadsheet, I find that the mail Gauntlets of Rapidity from badges of justice equal Grips of Silent Justice in dps. Any thoughts on this? I apologize in advance for my inability to work item links .
Rawr 15 will model the CS bonus on the Arena gloves. It is a powerful bonus, since it scales with your other gear when Ret spec.
Gauntlets of Rapidity are nice, however the other two gloves you listed are better in general (it depends on your other gear, which is why you use Rawr or a spreadsheet) and Plate.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Respecced retribution for the first time last night at Brutallus and, although most of the people were pretty happy with my performance, I think I could have pushed more than 1610 dps. Got a bit unlucky with crits too (31% on swing, 28% on CS and 27% on Judgement), when I was sitting on more than 33% buffed +3% from Crusader.
Also, my polearm skill is 349 and I'm not sure if 45% Glancing hits is related to this, to something else or I just got unlucky. Seem high compared to around 25% on rogues and Arms warrior.
I'm wondering how does it look for a more 'trained' eye. If I did any flagrant mistakes, was sloppy etc. According to Rawr15 I should be somewhere around 1750 dps. The gear I was wearing should be visible in Armory although the spec is Holy.
45% glancing is very high, you should be getting about 25% like the Arms Warrior. It's probably due to not having maxed skill. You know what to do, get your butt to the Blasted Lands and skill up some.
Alrighty, I have a question for you greater-than-I retadins.
The situation is this: Ever since my raid leader put together a Ret set, he has asserted that haste is better than Strength. I've been telling him that Strength should be the main concern after hit, but have no direct numbers on the matter.
So I ask you, what sort of conclusive formulas can be cited for the point-for-point superiority of strength over haste?
So I ask you, what sort of conclusive formulas can be cited for the point-for-point superiority of strength over haste?
Rawr, always. Haste is good for SoB, strength is better. Fortunately plate gear that has haste also has strength. But haste is fairly low dps gain for SoC..
Rawr, always. Haste is good for SoB, strength is better. Fortunately plate gear that has haste also has strength. But haste is fairly low dps gain for SoC..
*cough*
Haste isn't something to get intentionally, just something that comes with the gear that provides the str and attack. RAWR shows it quite clearly on the stat graph.
Also need to keep an eye on mana with SoC, especially on multi-mob fights where JoW isn't up reliably. Some people have found ways to play with all warrior gear, but it cuts it really close when you're not taking enough damage.
Haste isn't something to get intentionally, just something that comes with the gear that provides the str and attack. RAWR shows it quite clearly on the stat graph.
Also need to keep an eye on mana with SoC, especially on multi-mob fights where JoW isn't up reliably. Some people have found ways to play with all warrior gear, but it cuts it really close when you're not taking enough damage.
Well, I'll see what Rawr says, but I still need direct math. :x
As per mana problems, I've taken a page out of Hunter's books and stocked up on [Fel Mana Potion]. 0 spell damage means the debuff doesn't do anything, I presume, and it's just free mana on a shorter cooldown.
Rawr on live shows how bad haste is for SoC. I believe you mentioned that for you (with no current haste?) it's only barely above spell damage. I have about ~150 haste, ~250 ArP and set to SoC, it's still below agility in terms of dps but not by much. But still. It's worse than agility... That's low.
Originally Posted by The Astounding Sigmund
Well, I'll see what Rawr says, but I still need direct math. :x
You can link him maxdps, it shows strength as 3.58 dps per point and haste as 2.05 dps per point on the default stats. With random decent stats, it's 6.13 and 2.35. For SoC, Strength>Expertise(to cap)>ArP>Crit>Agi>..................Haste. Rawr and the spreadsheet show the same concept, but without the numbers. Graphs are prettier.
As per mana problems, I've taken a page out of Hunter's books and stocked up on [Fel Mana Potion]. 0 spell damage means the debuff doesn't do anything, I presume, and it's just free mana on a shorter cooldown.
Somewhere in this thread (I think it was Avitus or Ragnor who tested, not positive though) is math and testing proving that the debuff affects you even at 0 sp dmg, although I believe they found a full 3 stack of it to remove about 6 DPS altogether, making the DPS loss negligible and worth the mana gain.
Just found these on MMO champion. Inscription Glyphs.
Paladin (Skills List / Talent Calc. (8770))
* Glyph of Seal of Command - Increases the chance of dealing Seal of Command damage by 20%.
* Glyph of Hammer of Justice - Increases your Hammer of Justice duration by 1 sec.
* Glyph of Blessing of Wisdom - Your Blessing of Wisdom causes your target to also regenerate health at the same rate as mana.
* Glyph of Hammer of Wrath - Increases the range on Hammer of Wrath by 5 yards.
* Glyph of Crusader Strike - Your Crusader strike deals 20% more damage when your targe is incapacitated or stunned.
* Glyph of Consecration - Increases the radius of Consecration by 1 yards.
* Glyph of Righteous Defense - Increases the chance for your Righteous Defense ability to work successfully by 8% on each target.
* Glyph of Avenger's Shield - Your Avenger's Shield hits -2 fewer targets but for 100% more damage.
* Glyph of Turn Evil - Reduces the cooldown on Turn Evil by 5 sec.
* Glyph of Exorcism - Your Exorcism also interrupts spellcasting for 0 sec.
* Glyph of Blessing of Kings - Your Blessing of Kings also increases attack power on affected targets by 3%.
* Glyph of Flash of Light - Your Flash of Light heals for -50% less initially but also heals for 196% of its inital effect over 1 to 0 sec.
* Glyph of Holy Light - Your Holy Light grants 10% of its heal amount to up to 5 friendly targets within 5 of the initial target.
* Glyph of Blessing of Might - Your Blessing of Might also grants offensive spell power equal to 10% of the attack power it grants.
* Glyph of Lay on Hands - Your Lay on Hands also grants you as much mana as it grants your target.
* Glyph of Seal of Wisdom - While Seal of Wisdom is active the cost of your healing spells is reduced by -5%.
* Glyph of Seal of Light - While Seal of Light is active the effect of your healing spells is increased by 5%.
Looks to me, frustratingly, like a lot of pvp stuff with Seal of Casino being the only useful pve one. the blessing of Kings one is also nice, if any Ret Paladins have that spell. The blessing of Might one seems frustrating because it noes nothing for our Rogue and Warrior companions.
Just found these on MMO champion. Inscription Glyphs.
Looks to me, frustratingly, like a lot of pvp stuff with Seal of Casino being the only useful pve one. the blessing of Kings one is also nice, if any Ret Paladins have that spell. The blessing of Might one seems frustrating because it noes nothing for our Rogue and Warrior companions.
Blessing of might gives 450 attack power to our rogue and warrior companions. The glyph is so it's marginally useful for a caster, too, in case you find yourself with 3 pallies in a raid and the casters feel left out with only two blessings. The kings buff is awesome, and will stack quite nicely with all the other raid buffs that add AP. Kings will surpass might at a high enough gear level for dps.
08/05/08, 1:57 PM
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