• Avitus

Redcape, I'll take a look at your sheet (as soon as filefront will stop being lame), though I'm not so sure about doing too much extensive digging into Seals that may or may not be finalized.

Also things that initially came to mind while glancing over it briefly (though may not necessarily make much of a difference regarding your conclusion) is that while you take most of my stats to level 80, weapon damage + 10 DPS seems very low considering the first 2h epic we know of has 186.5 DPS with a 507-761 frontload ([Titansteel Destroyer]).


If you take a look at the previous (and more complete) outline of professions here: http://elitistjerks.com/853777-post5019.html

I'd say not much changes from PvE -> PvP. If it's "raw stats" you're after, BS and JC will still be superior. If you like gimmicks (halfway down on this page: World of Raids | Build 8770 - Patch Notes Update, Professions, Class, Glyphs) go with Engineering + BS or JC.

The trick with any of BS or JC is that they can emulate any "stat" buffs you might get from other professions. For example you could argue the 35 stam bonus from Mining would be nice for PvP, however you can achieve a similar (or more) 35 stam bonus through BS or JC, if stam is what you're after.

For now, it's hard to tell how much [Wild Growth] is going to be worth, especially since we're now going to have pretty powerful healing in ret gear anyway (high spell power + high cirt + sheath + nice mana regen = nice combat healing).

If it doesn't scale with +healing (which I doubt considering it would be much better for classes with spell power than rogues/warriors etc. "balancing issues" come to mind), I'd be inclined to dismiss it as not so useful for ret (personal opinion). If it does scale, it could be worth it I guess though it has a pretty long cd.

 

Redcape

Good point about the weapon damage. You can easily just adjust that on the sheet, and it will push up the value of crit/hit/haste some.

If I increase the weapon dps by another 40 to 198 then the numbers look more like:

Str 196
Agil 59
Hit 128
Crit 61
Exp 102
SP 55
Haste 61

Shifts things a bit towards the ratings and away from str, but not enough that str isn't just the runaway best still.

Edit: Ooops, adding weapon damage in the test field added damage to the base damage on JoB. I will get a new version up asap.

 

• Avitus

Any chance you can save it in a format regular old Ms Excel can open?

 

DarKNecross

The Wowhead comments state that [Wild Growth] doesn't scale with +Healing.
I'd like to think Engineering is going to end up being one of the premier Arena professions, along with Enchanting.
Looking at the [Titanium Belt Buckle], I don't think the Blacksmithing sockets are going to be BoP, and you'll be able to have a Blacksmith make them for you (similar to Weapon Chains).

Avitus, what does BC stand for, by the way?

http://crimson-guild.com

 

• Avitus

I guess herbalism is pretty worthless as a pvp perk then.

Regarding Blacksmithing (BS... "BC" was just a repeated typo on my part :P) [Titanium Belt Buckle] is BoE, however it's pretty much a definite that [Socket Bracer] and [Socket Gloves] will remain BoP (notice the wording "your"). That will be the personal "perk" for Blacksmithing.


Engineering in BGs definitely, in Arena not so sure (seems to be the general trend to have less of that, notice speed boots not working anymore). How come you picked Enchanting (you can achieve the same stat bonuses through BS and/or JC)?

 

Redcape

Hm. I will see what I can do, I thought Excel would be able to open a OpenOffice doc, I will try to upload something Excel can deal with.

Betadps.xls - FileFront.com

This should do it, can anyone confirm if it works in Excel? I only have OpenOffice, so I can't check myself atm.

Edit: updated spreadsheet to do SoV and relative stat values.

 

• frmorrison

Your sheet opens in Excel (using save as Excel in OpenOffice works well), however your sheet doesn't have a nice place to show the gain from each stat.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Redcape

Yeah, you have to just put each stat into the testing yellow fields and see what number comes out. I will be making a updated one asap to do exactly what you describe, but first I have to learn the macro language, hopefully will have it done tomorrow.

 

Quani

So I currently have Alchemy and Enchanting as my professions. I am very partial to both of them and would be extremely hard to get rid of them. My question to some of the people here, what would you do? The only option would to be BS, but what would you drop? I see really good perks with the two I have and to go through yet another grind to get BS up.....well lets just say I don't know that I can do it.

What are a few opinions?

 

• frmorrison

Keep your current professions.

While the Enchanting bonus is known (further upgraded ring enchants), Alchemy is still in development.

Anyway, is the 20 dps bonus with Blacksmithing over Alchemy (made up numbers, can't know it yet) worth the 2k gold to you?

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Redcape

Can anyone in the beta confirm the coefficient for the SoV proc on 5 stack?

The best information I have been able to find is that it is a 1.2% * Spellpower * WS damage, but no concrete numbers on critting (x2 or x1.5), resisting, missing, etc. I don't think the damage total is going to be very relevant anyway, but it would be a good thing to know.

I almost have a complete spreadsheet done to give values for mana return and dps on SoV, SoR, and SoB. It is pretty much the same sheet that I posted before except it has the relative values for each stat on there as well as more detail on JOTW mana return. The only details I need are the JoV 5 stack proc information and I will post it up here for you all to check out.

As a note, paladins are busted so far in two that there will certainly be some kind of brutal nerf if Blizzard knows what they are doing. Our scaling is seriously out of whack because seals and judgements don't have any kind of base damage component and in a raid setting with massive AP/SP boosts rets are ludicrous. They need to put in some substantial base damage values and reduce the scaling of SoR, SoV and Judgements by a huge amount, maybe as high as 2/3.

 

Rustik

I don't understand this. Wouldn't these values be dynamic based on the values of your other stats?

With 1400 AP, and 20% crit, I average 120 DPS.
If I add 45.9 crit rating, I go up to 21% crit.
I now average 121 DPS. a 1 DPS increase.

Now I have 2800 AP, and 20% crit. I now average 240 DPS.
I add 45.9 crit rating, and go up to 21% crit.
I now average 242 dps. A 2 dps increase.

With double the strength, the same amount of crit gets double the effect. How can you label a specific dps value to a stat value? Or is this assuming a certain average value?

 

Redcape

I made some assumptions to get these numbers. I took the gear worn by Avituus (a regular poster above, wearing basically the best Sunwell/BT gear for ret pallies available), gave him 10% more stats from gear, gave him a slightly better weapon and full raid buffs and did my calculations. If you look back a few posts of mine you will see a complete list of assumptions that I used to generate these numbers. Certainly how much Str you have changes how much Agility matters and the reverse also holds true.

One thing to keep in mind though is that there actually isn't too much variation in AP values relatively speaking once you get to raiding at 80. So much AP and crit ends up coming from buffs and consumables that the returns on stats stay constant and style of gearing you use and what gear quality you have (within reason, of course) actually change the values relatively little.

 

Eloy

Hi guys... was trying to find out more abt hit rating for Retri spec...

I understand that the Hit rating for Retri with 3 pts in Precision will be 9% for PVE and 5% for PVP right?

If that's the case, i only need 6% (3% from Precision) from GEAR right?

I dont want to stack all my gem slots with +Hit and then turn out overdo it and not being effective.

Thanks in advance!

 

Snoe

You need 95 hit rating from gear if you specced precision.

 

Prinsesa

Going back a little to the Seal DPS discussion: As long as Seal of Command/Blood is unequivocally superior in DPS, is it such a bad thing if SoV and SoR remain as powerful as they are?

I had a short discussion in this thread which points towards SoB still being the primary DPS Seal:

The huge gap we were seeing between SoV and everything else was mostly closed by the extra 16 or so procs you get from Crusader Strikes and Divine Storms.

This elevates SoR to the top spot, but then SoB pulls ahead in TOTAL damage once you factor in its Judgement hitting much harder than JoR.

It seems a lot of the outcry for a change in Seal DPS came from the assumption that SoR or SoV would be primary DPS, which does not seem to be the case anymore upon further examination.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

• Avitus

I currently have LW and Alchemy. I know LW must go since I have no real interest in it after they "fixed" drums. So I'm definitely going to be BS/Alchemy as a starter.

At this point I'm at the same stage you are at. I really like Alchemy and will have a pretty hard time dropping it, but on the other hand I really dislike how its "perk" is only active if you're flasked/using an elixir.

In PvP/Arena you won't have that perk, compared to say Enchanting and Jewelcrafting.

Why drop enchanting though? 80 AP always present or other useful stuff for other specs sounds good no?



No it's not a bad thing, however there should be some gap to distinguish the seals. At the moment it feels like a mess where everything feels and handles pretty much the same.

 

bellator

Prinsesa,

I would disagree with further examination showing SoB>SoR. All the evidence i can see points to the opposite Doing some rough paper maths shows that the advantage SoR has over SoB is far more than the advantage JoB has over JoR

Firstly, looking at their judgements:-

JoR = 45%AP + 73%SP
JoB = 45% Weapon Damage + 36%AP + 58%SP

Now if we add 14AP, the gain we see for the two is:-
JoR = 14*0.45 + 14*0.3*0.73 = 9.36
JoB = 14/14*3.6*0.45 + 14*0.36 + 14*0.3+0.58 = 9.096

We can see that in terms of AP, JoR scales faster than JoB when it comes to AP. For, lets say 5000 AP, the difference would be about 100 extra damage.

Now of course, SoB benefits from base weapons damage. A 200dps, 3.6 speed weapon would be about 324 damage more.

This comes out as (324-100)/8 = 28dps difference.


Now however, lets look at the SoR/SoB difference based on this 3.6 speed weapon

SoR = 18%AP + 36%SP
SoB = 35% Weapon Damage

Now, if we add 14AP the gains are:-
SoR hit increase = 0.18*14 + 14*0.3*0.36 = 3.9
SoB increase = 14/14 * 3.6 * 0.35 = 1.3

This means SoR is scaleing 3 times faster from AP than SoB.

Now, lets use the 5000AP used earlier, this would mean the damage per hit difference would be 928

Now, SoB would get the base weapon of the damage bonus which would be 200*3.6*0.35 = 252

However this means SoR is 676 damage ahead of SoB which when the weapon is hasted to 3.0 would be about 225dps.


Conclusion:-

What this all leads to is that at 5000AP and 200dps 3.6 weapon SoR is 225dps ahead and JoB is 28dps ahead.

This means SoR is beating SoB by 200dps. Now SoB can close the gap with higher dps weapons, but both SoR and JoR scale better than SoB and JoB with AP, thus for SoB to ever be better in the current state, we would have to be getting better weapons but not more strength through gear. This would not happen.

 

Redcape

SoB does less damage, and it isn't even remotely close.

Betadpsv2.xls - FileFront.com

This is the spreadsheet I created to model SoB, SoR, and SoV. the only thing that isn't complete is that the SoV proc on a 5 stack isn't done yet since I don't have complete information for it. It is a very small thing though, and doesn't change the basic facts that given level 80 blues (estimated, mind you) and full raid buffs SoR/JoR is 930 dps ahead of SoB and the judgement is hitting harder so the mana return is greater.

SoR scales so much better and the mana return from Jotw is so high that there really isn't a reason to use SoB at all. SoV actually ends up doing slightly less damage than SoR because it can't take real advantage of seals now proccing off our instant strikes, but the judgement there is so colossal that the extra mana return is worth the slight loss of dps. Of course, weaving SoR and SoV together generates by far the highest dps numbers, though how sustainable that is isn't really clear at the moment.

If you don't want to download the spreadsheet (it is really easy to check out though to see the results)

Assumptions: Level 80 blues (esitmated), full raid buffs, 5/5/61 spec

SoR - 5203 dps, 4469 mp5
SoB - 4272 dps, 3998 mp5
SoV - 5103 dps, 5349 mp5 (missing 5 stack proc data, ~ 80 dps)

Note that these numbers are using DS, CS, Judgement, AA. There is dps and damage per cast infomation a little lower down on the spreadsheet for Exorcism, Consecrate and HoW, but I did not put those in the basic calculations.

One other hilarious consequence of using SoB is that your judgements do crit as high as 17k with trinkets and AW aligned so you would be taking 5.7k self induced damage bursts. I don't know how high our HP pools will be at 80, but I sure do think that randomly ripping off 6k health (judge + seal) instantly is exceptionally dangerous.

 

Thorin

you could sort of see this coming...

Though lovely as it was, from what I hear, Ret was doing a truckload of damage

I hope they just give us more controlled DPS (but man some of those bursts were godly!) and a here's to wishing for a Snare/Slow effect and that they don't gimp our damage/mana regen.

 

Helot

WTB: Spriest type talent to reduce the %damage you take from SoB/JoB.

Chaith logs on
<zyl> Actually, I do like my paladin. He's fun to play, but don't tell Chaith.
<chaith> Looks like i logged in at the right time
<zyl> ....
<zyl> I pressed enter half a second after you logged on.

 

Foxconfessor

With numbers like that, what was once helpful becomes suicidal. 33% always was a bit ott compared to the seal but the judgment scaled poorly in comparison. The recoil is easily fixed by lowering the percentage, but maybe blood will just be consigned to the scrapheap now. SoR is a little flavourless but one working seal is better than nothing.

 

Redcape

I don't see it like that. We have a PVP seal (Command), a PVE seal for quick fights (Righteousness) and a PVE seal for long fights or weaving in for increased dps (Vengeance). Vengeance could have applications in PVP occasionally too, but I doubt it would be a main damage source since it can be dispelled. Blood at the moment simply is too dangerous to use once you get raid buffed, so I do expect them to lower the recoil on it dramatically, but I really don't know how they can make it into a seal that fits somewhere. It doesn't have a niche that it needs to fill right now, which makes it a bit tricky.

 

Foxconfessor

Have you (or anyone else) tried 'weaving' as you call it? I was under the impression that the % of base mana cost on a single rank of seal would make this sort of dps style very difficult. One of the reasons seal twisting works currently is because you judge blood and switch to rank1 SoC before switching back to blood when your swing lands and then starting all over again, meaning that the mana cost is substantial but not unfeasible (I usually finish fights like Brutallus with a comfortable amount of mana).

Maybe with the power of a scaling JoW plus JotW you will have enough mana to switch between SoV and another seal but I have not seen anything conclusive either way. I'd be interested to.

And of course, I forgot about SoC's higher burst in pvp. I usually forget people pvp as ret, so my apologies.

 

Redcape

I don't think you could swap constantly, but you don't need to to realize substantial benefits. If you have SoR up half the time and SoV up half the time you gain roughly 700 dps given the numbers on my spreadsheet (see above) but you only recast a seal every 10 seconds or so. That is a boatload of damage, though it sure does come at a cost. Your JoW will be giving you something like 750+ mana per proc, so you are going to have a lot of mana to work with, but twisting seals and using Consecrate and Exorcism really will depend on the mechanic JOTW uses which we don't entirely know as of yet.