You need 95 hit rating from gear if you specced precision.
Thanks. I managed to find the info after searching through like 100 posts as well.
Another qn i have is that i just started on KZ not too long. In terms of gear, i think i'm alright, abt 1600 AP unbuffed, hit rating max and about 26% crit. However, i also read before that in KZ, as most of the mobs are undead, melee dmg is considerable lower than if i spam consecrate, exorcism and Holy wrath etc. Is that true? If it is, then in theory i should stack spell hit max rather than melee hit right?
Pardon for all these questions as my main is actually a mage and so didnt spend much time on my pally.
Eloy, no good Ret/Warrior DPS gear has spell hit rating, and enchanting/gemming for spell hit is useless since you'll have to re-gem/re-enchant everything once you move into non-Undead mobs.
Holy Wrath is a DPS loss, since it resets your swing timer, has a long cast time and does not gain any spell damage from our gear.
The presence of Demons and Undead in KZ simply means you'll have the opportunity to supplement your DPS with Exorcisms. It does not change how you should be gearing.
Finally, please do try to maintain correct capitalization and punctuation. Contractions such as "qn" and "abt" should be avoided.
Originally Posted by MMO Champion Tom Chilton Interview What about the paladin, is there any plans to nerf the DPS Paladin's damage from what it is on beta servers now?
T.C. - We are just now beginning on going through the heavy tuning phase, we really don't do that until the end of the beta generally, where we start going through all of the classes and finding the things that are way out of balance and there's no doubt right now that the ret paladins are doing a lot more damage than what we would expect.
you could sort of see this coming...
Yes this was expected.
Now here's the very important bit, the bit that's ultimately going to matter: Are we going to be taken back to our TBC state or will they be smart/moderate about it (the nerf)?
I foresee grim times if they stick us back to TBC state, no matter how good you think JoW/JotW is going to be as a bargaining chip.
A lot of classes can give mana back, there are not as many blessings to go around and we can't keep "all" judgements applied anymore through CS, which means we don't have a leg to stand on if we're doing TBC like DPS.
I remember saying we're doing 75% of the absolute max, guess when pushed even further, we fall even further behind.
Now I admit, my party only had 1 heroism, vs the other melee party which had 2. We also only had 3 people with Leatherworking, so not a full rotation, so results could have been slightly further in favor of ret.
Still: ~2150 alliance ret vs ~3350 rogue vs ~3330 hunter, vs ~3.1k fury warrior. I see a pattern here. That's closer to 65% of max raid dps.
I did have somewhat better results in a different try (same party, standard non-stacked dps group, 1 heroism, 3/4 drum rotation) which we broke off (2234 alliance ret) at 1%, but still it's a far cry from the max other classes are achieving.
Why was I taken for the record? Buffs maybe (which will probably only take 2 paladins in wotlk) and ultimately judgement upkeep (which we won't have in wotlk).
I was taken for the two reasons we won't really have in WotLK anymore (and yes it can be argued that giving a handful of people the 3rd blessing will be useful, but that's too weak).
There is certainly a risk of our damage being too low, but I am personally not worried about it. JoW bringing 750 + mp5 to anyone attacking and JOTW shoveling massive mana to the raid is too much to give up so our raid spots should be safe. Also, Blizzard has consistently gotten better and better and tightening the gap between the have and have not specs as the years go by. They have demonstrated so far that they want to give ret paladins another strike, great utility, and much higher dps. They did end up going too far in the dps gain department, but I think they will try to leave us in a good spot. Why would they bother giving the class such a substantial overhaul/buff and not try to leave the final version both strong and balanced?
They clearly wanted to make us a ton better, I suspect they are just trying to find the sweet spot. I am betting that more changes are due that will lower our scaling and set our solo dps to rational levels are incoming.
Communication with the customers through blue posts has been very good so far during the beta, so it's irksome and disappointing that Chilton has chosen to relate this information via some obscure German gaming website rather than just posting on his own forums.
Anyway, there should be a lvl 80 build soonish so we should know a lot more about their intentions.
And yes, I definitely get you Avitus. Stuff trickles down from the 'top' of raiding, so it has to work at the top. In my guild (should kill Eredar twins this week) it is easier for me as a horde paladin (2300+ best on Brutallus with 5 sunwell items so far, best in guild is a rogue at 2600), but if someone was doing 3300 then 2300 doesn't look an awful lot better than 2100.
Last edited by Foxconfessor : 08/21/08 at 1:23 PM.
Well, I'm not sure the mana argument would stick. Compared to now, yea it sounds great that we'd give so much mana.
Compared to what we know from WotLK: So many classes are getting a mana battery function, we're nothing special here. The most optimum of those will be picked and stacked.
-Our "stronger" jow argument doesn't feel too encouraging since it's not unique, Holy/Prot can give close to what we give meaning all we got as a bargaining chip is the "difference" between our jow and holy/port jow, not even the full effect itself. This sounds like a very weak argument to me.
-JotW, still remains to be seen. With the expected damage nerf, I'm assuming the first thing that will be nerfed will be the excessive judgement damage (and rightly so to get rid of the burst). But how is this going to effect JotW usefulness? Again, not looking too bright.
Basically what I'm saying is, I don't see our limited utility being our entry ticket to raids if we remain at our current (TBC) damage, relative to the raid.
I'm hoping for a placement somewhere between enhancement shammies and hunters.
Swift Retribution is very powerful and retri only utility. Also alliance paladins get same tool-box than horde brother so don't compare paladin damage with SoC to other classes use SoB dps as baseline.
Retribution dps should be same than enchancement shamans. Both bring lot of buffs/utility but not so unique anymore. Death knigth + resto shaman can replace enchancement shaman spot in wotlk or holy paladin can offer almoust same stuff than retribution.
Retribution scaling in beta is 0.88dps/ap currently if Redcape spreadsheet isn't totally off. Enhance scaling is somewhere 0.45-0.55dps/ap. So little tuning is needed. Tell blizz where they point that tuning/nerf don't try avoid blow. Then it will hurt less.
Another note: Blue posts have said many times that there shouldn't be any "free raid spot" buffs witch you can't replace.
Edit: WWS scoreboard show best shaman 2482dps vs paladin 2427dps. But it's not so reliable at this time. WWS from your guild Kaphanda doing 2619 avarage dps whitch is probably the highest ever. So 200dps gap or 7.5% below now. I hope this be much closer to 0% in Wotlk.
-JotW, still remains to be seen. With the expected damage nerf, I'm assuming the first thing that will be nerfed will be the excessive judgement damage (and rightly so to get rid of the burst). But how is this going to effect JotW usefulness? Again, not looking too bright.
Couldn't agree more.
Currently, it looks like we'll bring half a JoW and not much else to a WotLK raid. That's just not good enough to justify a raidspot.
Swift Retribution is very powerful and retri only utility. Also alliance paladins get same tool-box than horde brother so don't compare paladin damage with SoC to other classes use SoB dps as baseline.
Retribution dps should be same than enchancement shamans. Both bring lot of buffs/utility but not so unique anymore. Death knigth + resto shaman can replace enchancement shaman spot in wotlk or holy paladin can offer almoust same stuff than retribution.
Retribution scaling in beta is 0.88dps/ap currently if Redcape spreadsheet isn't totally off. Enhance scaling is somewhere 0.45-0.55dps/ap. So little tuning is needed. Tell blizz where they point that tuning/nerf don't try avoid blow. Then it will hurt less.
Another note: Blue posts have said many times that there shouldn't be any "free raid spot" buffs witch you can't replace.
The best horde paladin dps on brut I've seen in a non stacked group was roughly the same: 2.1-2.3.
The average is usually +100 DPS. Still, +/- 100 DPS doesn't change the premise of what I'm saying.
I've experienced enhance shammen going up to 2.7-2.8k, so yea at the moment there's a massive gap and no utility to excuse it (actually less for ret).
I'm hoping this gap will be closed in WotLK, I think that's a good place to be, considering the amount of utility we will be offering.
I understand what you mean with different classes providing the same buff, still that argument won't fly if you consider the classes as a whole: They both offer the same buff, yet one of them gives more personal DPS or more "other" utility.
Closing the personal DPS gap a bit would remove this uncertainty.
I'd say the difference is slightly higher. If I can do 2.3k (apologies if the account is playing up, and please don't laugh at the wipes!) with my gear in a normal group with one BL, I'm sure I could do a substantially larger figure with the best Sunwell has to offer. But anyway, I'm not looking to split hairs; as I said in my earlier post even if a blood knight makes 2.5k on Brutallus, you're still relying on your bespoke utility for your meal ticket when others are bringing 3.3k.
I'm a little bit more cautiously optimistic than Avitus I think, but I'd still agree utility needs to be redefined and honed or dps needs to take a big jump relative to other classes. At the moment holy is looking really bad, sheath or no sheath, which in turn makes things look less threatening for ret in terms of who to bring for blessings, but that could change (I hope all three specs end up great!).
Edit: WWS scoreboard show best shaman 2482dps vs paladin 2427dps. But it's not so reliable at this time. WWS from your guild Kaphanda doing 2619 avarage dps whitch is probably the highest ever. So 200dps gap or 7.5% below now. I hope this be much closer to 0% in Wotlk.
A quick note on the shaman dps from the scoreboard vs the dps from the stats - dps usually goes down a fair amount on the scoreboard compared to the stats due to a different method of calculation, so the two figures are probably roughly the same. We'll find out if the website ever starts updating again (it's been nearly 3 weeks).
Foxconfessor, about ~109 DPS in your WWS come from Seal twisting. Even though a lot of belf paladins have been using it, I highly doubt it's an intended mechanic (it's exploiting a bug).
Additionally, your gear is only slightly worse than mine (Weapon and Shoulders being the main differences, rest are just small bits and pieces), so I don't think it will go much higher than that. Take away seal twisting and we're looking at 2.3k being the roof of what will be reached in non-stacked groups.
Originally Posted by Pitbuller
Edit: WWS scoreboard show best shaman 2482dps vs paladin 2427dps. But it's not so reliable at this time. WWS from your guild Kaphanda doing 2619 avarage dps whitch is probably the highest ever. So 200dps gap or 7.5% below now. I hope this be much closer to 0% in Wotlk.
My friend, why even bring WWS scoreboard here? You can't rely on scores from that website since many are randomly spiked by group stacking or multiple heroisms. You yourself say that.
I have no idea why 2482 is the highest for a shaman there, but I've personally experienced 2.7k-2.8k. That's roughly 500 DPS difference from the non-stacked 2.2-2.3k a paladin can achieve. Hell it's still 400 DPS above 2.4k if you want to take that number. That's a very big gap with nothing to show for it.
I understand that seal twisting isn't intended but it's work now and can't be ignored. Totem twisting isn't intended either but it's widely used althougth it's very lame mechanic and boring playstyle.
We are exactly same boat in wotlk but I hope utility nerf mean dps boost.
With Glyph of Blessing of Might(Your Blessing of Might also grants offensive spell power equal to 10% of the attack power it grants.) there is three good blessing for almoust every classes. Only rogues, dps warriors and dps death knight need only two. 350 * 1.5 * 0.1 = 52.5 spell power.
I'd say the difference is slightly higher. If I can do 2.3k (apologies if the account is playing up, and please don't laugh at the wipes!) with my gear in a normal group with one BL, I'm sure I could do a substantially larger figure with the best Sunwell has to offer. But anyway, I'm not looking to split hairs; as I said in my earlier post even if a blood knight makes 2.5k on Brutallus, you're still relying on your bespoke utility for your meal ticket when others are bringing 3.3k.
I'm a little bit more cautiously optimistic than Avitus I think, but I'd still agree utility needs to be redefined and honed or dps needs to take a big jump relative to other classes. At the moment holy is looking really bad, sheath or no sheath, which in turn makes things look less threatening for ret in terms of who to bring for blessings, but that could change (I hope all three specs end up great!).
A quick note on the shaman dps from the scoreboard vs the dps from the stats - dps usually goes down a fair amount on the scoreboard compared to the stats due to a different method of calculation, so the two figures are probably roughly the same. We'll find out if the website ever starts updating again (it's been nearly 3 weeks).
Damn you, and your intelligent guild for using Survival AND a BF Warrior. All three of our hunters complain when I force one to go Survival (thankfully I finally broke one down) and our Fury warrior refuses to go Arms (We only have 3 Wars and two are fulltime prot -_-)
Don't think the arms warrior was too happy in this case, because the guy who normally plays the arms warrior needed to tank Brutallus this week, meaning the fury guy was playing arms. Like musical chairs!
And Avitus, point taken, for some reason I got it into my head you had the LW chest. But still, I think LW chest + new helm + cloak + t6 boots as well as the items you mentioned would make a significant difference to me (Rawr certainly says so).
Onto other things, vengeance nerf and not a judgement nerf? Seems strange to me.
Last edited by Foxconfessor : 08/22/08 at 12:00 PM.
Yea I wear T6 boots when our drenai warrior is in my party, otherwise I use Dreadboots for the +hit
Anyway, I guess essentially we're all agreeing with each other that it would make sense to share DPS placement with enh shamen, just each estimating the DPS gap slightly differently.
With Glyph of Blessing of Might(Your Blessing of Might also grants offensive spell power equal to 10% of the attack power it grants.) there is three good blessing for almoust every classes. Only rogues, dps warriors and dps death knight need only two.
With the BoW glyph it also restores health at the same rate as mana, making it useful for non-mana classes too.
hmm a question about the seal command glyph, as currently its set to 7 ppm, which gives it a % proc based on your weapon correct? which pretty much averages it to 7 ppm? so theoretically with a 3.8 speed weapon my understanding is that its around a 44% proc rate, and with a 3.5 weapon its at around 41%. But with the new glyph that adds 20% chance to proc the seal would it just increase it to 62% or would it still cap out at 7? and if it does increase the chance in a static manner how does that hold up to seal of blood? i would imagine it gives a static 20% increase in damage done by seal of command. Currently my seal command damage is around 18% average of my total damage, and the 20% increase in socomm would push it to around 20% of my total damage. Whats the % of total damage done by SoB on average? And do you guys think it would make command better overall?
So far the ongoing assumption is that it will increase ppm by 20% making it an 8.4 ppm.
I think someone ran some numbers a few pages back which indicated SoB would still be on top. Also remember one of the main advantages of SoB is that it directly scales with haste, where as SoC doesn't, though of course it depends on whether level 80 endgame epics will be as haste heavy as current sunwell itemization.
Regarding the SOB topic, it seems strange that they would worry about buffing SOC since both sides will have SOB now. Is it for variety, or just a PVP thing. Also, are +haste items more accessible in WotLK? If so, does it widen the gap between the DPS of SOB and SOC even more?
One thing I didn't get was they gave us all these new skills and whatnot, then they say our DPS was more than they expected, so instead of making some tweaks, they just reduce vengeance to 2 stacks. Was ret DPS really that high, or was it just in line with the other, pure DPS classes? Why not just drop the dmg on DS by say, 10% or so, but increase the healing aspect to 30% of the total dmg done? I'm not playing the beta, but I don't think you have to be in the beta to realize that if they are taking away your DPS, they should buff your utility to make you a viable option in raids. I mean, DPS has to make up for lack of utility, and vice versa.
I don't want to be the guy I was in the bc, and I definately don't want to be the vanilla wow ret pally. I just don't see what can be so hard about making 3 viable trees. They seem to be doing all right with the other classes, for the most part. This is supposed to be the phase where they start tuning things, but yet someone decided the new Titans Grip and the passive mortal strike are ok, but we are the OP ones. By the way, has anyone on the beta been able to test any of the new glyphs? Some seem questionable to me, as far as their usefulness.
It's only 5% dmg decrease, it's a nerf, but it's nothing much compared to what we are getting.
If you're doing 3k dps at 80, it's only going to amount to 150 dps off. I imagine it's to take off the edge of our proportionally scaling dps thanks to most of our stuff now scaling with both AP and Spell Power.
I personally prefer the outright % drop as opposed to touching the scaling which could screw us over in raiding.
By the way, has anyone on the beta been able to test any of the new glyphs? Some seem questionable to me, as far as their usefulness.
Inscription is currently capped at 135 skill (there are no new recipes past that point), so no one can test them. Bibi just data mined the game files to get the list of glyphs.
Also, we don't know which glyphs are minor (you get 3) and major (you get 3 or 4 with the profession).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
It's only 5% dmg decrease, it's a nerf, but it's nothing much compared to what we are getting.
Do you mean what we are getting as in more nerfs, or as in the positive changes? If the latter, wasn't the vengeance nerf just one of more upcoming nerfs? I don't know the timeline for the vengeance nerf in relation to the reply from chilton stating we were doing too much dmg. Hopefully the nerf was after the reply.
We have some points that could be moved around, 7 in Protection is important for me, but the rest may be better in another place.
Last edited by frmorrison : 08/26/08 at 12:26 PM.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Do you mean what we are getting as in more nerfs, or as in the positive changes? If the latter, wasn't the vengeance nerf just one of more upcoming nerfs? I don't know the timeline for the vengeance nerf in relation to the reply from chilton stating we were doing too much dmg. Hopefully the nerf was after the reply.
I meant it as in we (the retadins) have received much needed attention in regards to our dps performance, utility and raid synergy. Divine Storm, SpellPower/AP scaling, judgment rehashes have all given us a brighter expansion to look forward to.
From reports, we may have been over throttled and it looks like Blizz are going to rein us back in. While Im not convinced that removing 5% from Vengeance will be where it stops, I do feel that Blizz are going to take a baby steps approach to our balancing. Which is a very good thing.
'Nubadin'. 'Retardin' will be just as much callsigns as 'Huntard' and 'Brain Heal' simply because there will always be dumb/not so active ppl who will not be so amazing in performance. At least there will be something for the rest of us to work with and excel at in front of our raiding/party peers. It's a really good thing, let's focus on that =]
~As a foreword, I think we should try to keep our Pre-WotLK 3.0 discussions in the respective class threads, since it wouldn''t help WotLK discussion.~
With the current proposed changes, 3.0 looks like it will give me incentive to reactivate my account, which I'm sure is the marketing strategy.
Looking at Arenas, I don't mind having a chance to be completely dominant for a month or two.
Taking a Paladin I found in Full S4, they currently have 1850AP (as 0/20/41). That Paladin respec'ing 0/10/51 with the WotLK talents in changes would have 2427ap with just Blessing of Might (383 from BoM, 194 from Divine Strength). Assuming that Paladin is on an Arena team with a warrior (381ap from BS) and a druid (46ap from iMotW), putting him at 2854ap. Add in the frequently up Libram of Divine Judgement (200ap), and we easily break 3050ap, in full PVP gear, in an arena match.
I don't see how a team will be able to deal with a Ret Paladin/Fury Warrior/Healer team. Both DPS easily break 3000AP and 40% crit. It'll be like 2.0, but more fun.
I heard Sigurd scored an infinity on Rock Band and ascended to heaven.
08/21/08, 2:19 AM
