What exactly are you saying here? That when not in an ideal group, or when you're placed into a caster group, that a traditional ret paladin should be using SoR? Or the spec you suggested with improved Righteousness would be better dps in non-ideal groups and the proper itemization? Are we talking just the damage from the seal itself?

He's saying there are conditions, or possible conditions, where SoR will outDPS SoC. (Seal DPS comparison)

"SoC is the best DPS seal" is ancient paladein dogma which was strictly true before TBC - but with all of the changes that came with TBC (SoV + SoR, SoR weapon speed normalization, passive haste, access to WF), that may no longer be true in all cases.


Those who are serious about maxing their "Raid DPS" may want to take a serious look - we should at least know *why* not to use SoR.

Here is the new Paladin dps spreadsheet version 1.8. Read the last few pages of the thread to see what has been added to it:-

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I have also put together a rough version of the spreadsheet which can be used to model SoR:-

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Notes:-

This version models in SoR/JoR/Consecration. It includes some extra +dmg items, some gems/enchants etc. However it is far less complete than for SoC items.

There is the Imp Judgement of Righteousness talent and wrath of air totem included and an option in the play style to include max rank consecration spamming.

Please Note that when setting up buffs/consecration spam pay attention to which dps group you are in. If you are in a melee group with WF etc etc then you shouldnt turn on max rank consecration spam as you wont have a shadow priest to support you. If you are in a caster group you can put consecration on but must turn off things like WF/battle shout etc etc. Putting everything on is an unrealistic option and will make SoR dps look far greater than it is.

Conclusions for model:-

When comparing a SoR gear build to a SoC gear build, it can be seen that being put in a caster group and allowed to spam max rank consecrations is better for the SoR build then being put in the melee group. Both significantly increase dps but the caster group slightly beats the melee group option.

When it comes to effectiveness of str in SoC build to +dmg in SoR build, the str option does have a slightly bigger impact on damage. However the difference is a lot closer than i imagined.

However in terms of output dps, the SoC build did beat the SoR build by 200-300dps depending on buffs etc. This is due to all the reasons i mentioned earlier. Scaling (whilst not as bad as i thought) did play a role. Then theres the raid/group buffs problem and itemisation problems mentioned. With better itemisation i'm sure this could be reduced to about 100-150 dps difference, but for the moment, SoC is still the superior build

Play around and have fun with the SoR version, but please be careful as if you set up buffs/consecration usage unrealistically, you will get unrealistic SoR numbers.

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Djardin, have a play with the new model. A few points regarding your post....

I'm sorry, but the first quote of mine you used had the line "Even if other factors such as crit % modifiers etc etc were included"....i did read your post properly and included these factors.

The fact that SoR can do more damage than SoC with less buffs is irrelevant as you have to take into account all the buffs the paladin will have which will make SoC superior to SoR.

This isn't entirely true, as a SoC build will have more melee crit, which will have a multiplicitive effect on the white/CS gains from AP.

Here's one big problem with the SoR build. To be able to use consecration, you need a shadow priest in your group which means you won't get WF. Even if SoR is better with WF than SoC you lose the big chunk of consecration damage through not having a shadow priest .

Firstly whilst a SoC based paladin might lose more outside of a melee group than a SoR paladin, if inside the group the SoC paladin was doing more dps then there is no reason why outside of the group (even after the bigger loss) he is still doing the same/more dps than the SoR paladin.

Anyway, it's besides the point. Being put in a melee group isn't "Very lucky" it's sensible. Any end game raid leader will know that ret paladins gain an awful lot from being in a melee group (probably more than any other class). If there isnt a spot in a melee group the the ret paladin, then you dont bring the ret paladin to the raid as there are far better dps choices available who don't scale as badly outside the melee group


2 pieces of S3 gear have hit. They also have wasted points in resiliance and excessive stamina. 1 Piece of lightbringer and 2 pieces of crystalforge have hit. And all of tier 5/6 waste points in intellect/strength and have large portions of crit which isnt ideal for SoR. Not saying these items are all bad, but far poorer itemised compared to some of the Str/Crit gear that can be found

My model above is based around 2.3 talents. So the marginal extra benefits these will give SoR compared to SoC build has been included. I do think you're exaggerating the effectiveness of these a little however.

This depends on the level of consecration. Alchemists stone is 8 mana per second gain. Max rank consecrate is 82.5 mana per second loss. Min rank is 15 mana per second loss. Min rank consecrate without spell damage but with JotC would give about 36 dps gain.

JoC is spell hit.

And here's a highly situational reason to use SoR - when you're wearing +dmg gear anyways to consecrate AoE packs.

If you can hit 5+ targets with Consecrate, your +dmg scaling from consecrate alone will blow away AP scaling. (and you want to be using a shield anyways if you're going to "tank" a few mobs)


Yeah, AoE packs aren't that frequent, but if you have the +dmg gear already (your +healing gear may work fine for that purpose in 2.3), and if it's the best tool for the job...? The point isn't to just recognize the best overall DPS seal - it's to recognize where the other DPS seals fit into the arsenal.


I'd also question if an SoR build is really "wasting points" in crit/str - autoattack is still a major portion of our damage, and a pure +dmg item will rarely provide more overall DPS than a combination Str/+dmg item.



To rephrase my thought - ability scaling depends completely on how you're using the abilities - and the way you use your abilities depends on the fight. So what are the best abilities to use against single targets? Double targets? AoE packs?


Boss fights are generally single target and thus all of this discussion should apply to that type of fight; but how about maximizing damage in fights with strange gimmicks? For example, Morogrim with the murloc packs - would a +dmg build do more damage due to the use of consecrate, or would focusing on the boss with the melee build yield more damage?

I tend to think you'd get more out of putting those 2 points somewhere in the Retribution tree. That's personal preference though.

IBoM would be my choise since it's the only one of those which actually gives you a DPS benefit in PvE and would buff you almost whole the time. And like you were thinking, NPC's can't crit you with spells so Eye for an Eye won't help you.

What is 4% more mana for you? For me at 4000 mana, that's a measly 160 mana, or about 10 intellect's worth of mana. I think going for BoK might be better for situations where you'd be the only paladin--seems plausible in heroics and ZA.
On the other hand, Spiritual Focus seems invaluable if you ever PvP.

I think it's pretty safe to assume someone else is picking up the Imp BoM.

I don't have a case for any of your other options. If you're strictly a PVEr, then 4% from DI is your best bet I suppose. I was assuming since you were thinking of Guardian's Favor you might want to give yourself a PVP boost.

Strictly PVE, I think teh DI is your best bet. They're pretty much throwaway points though, given how little INT is likely to be on your Ret gear.

- JoC is around 5-6% of the damage of a ret paladin itemized in strength
- JoR is around 15% of the damage of a ret paladin itemized in spell damage