Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 21

myth123 · 10/30/07, 3:00 PM

Has it occured to anyone else that armor penetration is still awesome for retadins? I mean, with CS and white attacks combining for 70~75% of our dmg, armor penetration, in terms of itemization points, is actually a pretty efficient use of item budget, for both pvp (especially on clothies) and pve.

• Avitus · 10/30/07, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by Warpony

Was just about to add: Since when should we base our gear around Shade of Akama, possibly the shortest and most gimped fight in T6 content?

Take that 2000 mana (and it won't rly be that high, since i think 90% of us will go for 2-piece bonus) and spread it out over a 20m Illidan fight... I'd much prefeer the small dps increase from warrior items instead of dropping STR and Hit-rating just to push ~5 more exorsisms...

Yea it's an extreme example and I agree the exception shouldn't make the rule, you're right, however that goes both ways. I was offering a counter example to the "it's only 1% of your mana" post (which assumes 50000 mana regenned and a 10 minute fight).

Originally Posted by Kris

Avitus, you take a very extreme example in the case of Illidari Shatterer vs T6. This one applies to you and only you imo. For me, the difference in both is about 35 DPS since don't have precision and I'm not hit capped. The math is never that simple and no real example would give you 5 dps for 530 mana tradeoff. In your case it's 5 dps vs 530 mana and 8 points spent in protection.

I'd argue that any pve build that does not include 8 points spent to get precision is using gimped gear since you'd have to spend a large amount of your gear on +hit to get the cap (instead of taking gear that gives you actual str/crit/agi), while at the same time those 8 points you free up cannot be spent anywhere where it increases your damage.

Anyway, as said, most of this is just an opinion/advice from my personal experience, I know what gear I'll stick to and I do believe the extra mana gives an edge, but I welcome others to try other routes in practice and prove me wrong.

One does not learn more from a discussion if we all just agree with eachother blindly

bellator · 10/30/07, 3:25 PM

@Myth123

What you have to remember for armour penetration is that we dont know how many points of armor penetration you get for one itemisation point.

There is a Graph Option labelled "Armour penetration / item point" in which you specify this number. If you specify a low number armour penetration looks bad, if you specify a high number it looks good. Until we know the exact numbers we won't know the value of it for retadins

bellator · 10/30/07, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by DarKNecross

Could this be when you're sitting hit-capped, and comparing Red Belt of Battle to Belt of 100 Deaths? If that were the case, I could easily see it.
If you're not hit-capped, however, the two belts shouldn't be that far off from each other. But I could see how expertise is really amazing.

Yes it was hit capped, but then it is fairly easy at that level to get hit capped

myth123 · 10/30/07, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

@Myth123

What you have to remember for armour penetration is that we dont know how many points of armor penetration you get for one itemisation point.

There is a Graph Option labelled "Armour penetration / item point" in which you specify this number. If you specify a low number armour penetration looks bad, if you specify a high number it looks good. Until we know the exact numbers we won't know the value of it for retadins

I see.

Kris · 10/30/07, 4:59 PM

Can't you calc armor penetration based on an item where you know the total ilvl minus what the other stats cost?

Aurius · 10/30/07, 5:51 PM

Alright, I have read pretty much this entire thread the last few days trying to incorporate some ideas. I know I have to readjust my talents and thats not an issue. Ive been trying to find a solid answer however, as a Blood Elf, I should be using seal of blood before seal of command correct? If thats not the case perhaps thats why I cant seem to break 500 dps in raids. Need to bring something to the table of what I am doing wrong and to convince our other officers to continue to bring myself as a ret.

Strifen · 10/30/07, 6:12 PM

Originally Posted by Aurius

Alright, I have read pretty much this entire thread the last few days trying to incorporate some ideas. I know I have to readjust my talents and thats not an issue. Ive been trying to find a solid answer however, as a Blood Elf, I should be using seal of blood before seal of command correct? If thats not the case perhaps thats why I cant seem to break 500 dps in raids. Need to bring something to the table of what I am doing wrong and to convince our other officers to continue to bring myself as a ret.

Firstly, use seal of blood when you're doing raid DPS.

Secondly, enchant your gear and invest in some proper gems. You cant break 500dps because you have 5 pieces of gear unenchanted along with green gems. Your hit rating is very low, helm enchant will help that out. Look for any blue cloak on the AH with +hit and meele stats and keep an eye out for gear that has +hit on it. Replace leg enchant with the Ap/Crit one.

flyingtoastr · 10/30/07, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Aurius

Alright, I have read pretty much this entire thread the last few days trying to incorporate some ideas. I know I have to readjust my talents and thats not an issue. Ive been trying to find a solid answer however, as a Blood Elf, I should be using seal of blood before seal of command correct? If thats not the case perhaps thats why I cant seem to break 500 dps in raids. Need to bring something to the table of what I am doing wrong and to convince our other officers to continue to bring myself as a ret.

The only fights you shouldn't be using Blood on are those where you are in danger of killing yourself with the recoil; Prince, RoS phase 2 during Deaden, etc. Otherwise it will give you more stable threat as well as a higher sustained DPS.

After looking at your spec and gear I have few more suggestions too. Spec for Precision and possibly resocket some of your gear with +8 hit gems. Reaching the hit cap (or getting close to it) will improve your DPS a lot. I would also suggest, as a blood elf, to move away from the Spell Damage items you're wearing. Since you'll be using Seal of Blood as your main DPS ability the spell damage is mostly wasted. I would also try to run as many heroics as possible (Blood Furnace in particular) in order to upgrade your Breastplate and get the [Libram of Avengement].

Aurius · 10/30/07, 6:16 PM

Thanks for the quick advice. Will be trying this. (And I know gear was very underdone. Was a fury warroir prior to the pally, and leveled the pally to help the raids when we had no pallys showing for raids and have been playing catchup on rep and gear ever since)

grover · 10/31/07, 12:53 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

Have you tested this our with all spells. as whilst i know % modifiers don't effect the increase damage it gives consecration, i do know that % modifiers do effect the increase damage it gives SoR

I went out and tested JoC, SoC, SoV, JoV, CS, SoR and JoR. SoR is the only ability where modifiers increase the damage that JotC adds.

Teer · 10/31/07, 1:28 AM

The s3 honor items have lost it spell damage aswell.

• _Retribute_ · 10/31/07, 1:47 AM

I was hearing this from multiple people that arena gear is actually the best itemized for ret. Does that mean you could probably raid in it? Im trying to bypass as much pve content for the least work. Hey I dont want to run kara 100 more times <

>

Aurius · 10/31/07, 1:52 AM

Dang that respec worked wonder. Hit 534 dps for thenight just by respeccing. (And first kill of leo, 2nd horde group on server to do it).

The s3 pvp gear looks great. Might have to start grinding av again pre-patch for the honor on those.

flyingtoastr · 10/31/07, 2:00 AM

Originally Posted by _Retribute_

I was hearing this from multiple people that arena gear is actually the best itemized for ret. Does that mean you could probably raid in it? Im trying to bypass as much pve content for the least work. Hey I dont want to run kara 100 more times <

>

Is it the best gear? No (other than the gloves, which are the best). Is it damn close to being the best gear? Yes. Even the season 2 set is better than anything you can get in Kara.

Sapp · 10/31/07, 2:23 AM

Season 2 set was by and large fairly competitive for t5 raiding. A selection of the s3 stuff, well, it currently looks like I'll be wearing it in t6 content even with the resilience weighing it down. The Vengeful Scaled chest and gloves are exceptional, and the honor reward boots will likely be worn too.

The honor belt is the best option for an int-granting belt too, beating out tidal call. RBoB is still the best for the slot, however.

Fiola · 10/31/07, 5:17 AM

Originally Posted by Teer

The s3 honor items have lost it spell damage aswell.
<images>

Hrm. Using MMO-Champion for the old stats:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...ndication2.jpg

Bracers:
-22 +dmg
+10 Str

Belt:
-30 +dmg
+13 Str

Boots
-30 +dmg
+13 Str

If they're changing ability mechanics, I want a preview already. = /

Valerys · 10/31/07, 5:35 AM

Originally Posted by Avitus

I'd argue that any pve build that does not include 8 points spent to get precision is using gimped gear since you'd have to spend a large amount of your gear on +hit to get the cap (instead of taking gear that gives you actual str/crit/agi), while at the same time those 8 points you free up cannot be spent anywhere where it increases your damage.

Except that items such as Illidari Shatterer have the best stats in their slot even if you ignore the +hit they give.
As for 8 free points, you could e.g. use them to increase your PvP viability, or take both full Imp BoM and Benediction.

Cromfel · 10/31/07, 11:43 AM

Now I finally found people to give proper test at PTR.

Rogue: Full tier 6 all possible BT epics from Illidan etc
Paladin: Full tier 5 + BT epics and TK/SSC
Warrior: Full Merciless + TK/SSC epics
Druid: Full Merciless + TK/SSC epics
Shaman: Random Kara epics + Merciless

WWS Report from the test.

#1 Massa 1981 (Rogue)
#2 Desdaaja 1548 (Paladin)
#3 Elitetwo 1288 (Warrior)
#4 Inach 1094 (Druid)
#5 Cortesz 811 (Shaman)

Test completed.

Mearis · 10/31/07, 12:04 PM

1548 is insanely high for a paladin with t5, that's higher than full t5 rogues. Damn, this is going to be a good patch for ret paladins, I wonder if they intended for the buffs to be this big.

Woah NM, blasted lands mobs. I am curious to see what the numbers will be like in raids.

Cromfel · 10/31/07, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mearis

1548 is insanely high for a paladin with t5, that's higher than full t5 rogues. Damn, this is going to be a good patch for ret paladins, I wonder if they intended for the buffs to be this big.

Woah NM, blasted lands mobs. I am curious to see what the numbers will be like in raids.

Thats why I took insanely, perfectly geared rogue to give comparison point. The fight is equal for both of us and I had Righteous fury up to make sure he can backstab as much as possible. All I wanted to see is how I compare under those circumstances to extremely well geared rogue. Remember that bossfight gives negative effects in avoidance to both players, but I would gain spell damage related benefits and almost unlimited mana. Changing the same test to boss would have little to no effect to our relative DPS. And if some, it would boost my dps more than hes.

Mearis · 10/31/07, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

Thats why I took insanely, perfectly geared rogue to give comparison point. The fight is equal for both of us and I had Righteous fury up to make sure he can backstab as much as possible. All I wanted to see is how I compare under those circumstances to extremely well geared rogue. Remember that bossfight gives negative effects in avoidance to both players, but I would gain spell damage related benefits and almost unlimited mana. Changing the same test to boss would have little to no effect to our relative DPS. And if some, it would boost my dps more than hes.

I am not convinced that relative damage stays the same at different levels of mitigation though, but if it did, that's a huge buff - that puts you at roughly 75% of a very well geared rogue's damage. Right now our ret paladin does roughly 900-950 DPS with windfury and our rogues are around 1450-1500. Going from 66% to 75% is a pretty big change if this pans out.

Cromfel · 10/31/07, 12:20 PM

Here is example of hes gear level compared to mine (zero T6 at PTR).

http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/ww...test_rogue.jpg

Argavaine · 10/31/07, 1:34 PM

Where did you do this test? Blasted Lands? Did you tanked the mob? If yes then you have increased dps because of parry counterattack.

Cromfel · 10/31/07, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by Argavaine

Where did you do this test? Blasted Lands? Did you tanked the mob? If yes then you have increased dps because of parry counterattack.

And are those 7 parried attacks significant portion of the damage? Is it more than the fact that I didnt have JotC judged for spell damage and crit? Were some stars not aligned properly to my favor?