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Old 10/30/07, 3:00 PM   #501
myth123
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Cho'gall
Has it occured to anyone else that armor penetration is still awesome for retadins? I mean, with CS and white attacks combining for 70~75% of our dmg, armor penetration, in terms of itemization points, is actually a pretty efficient use of item budget, for both pvp (especially on clothies) and pve.

 
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Old 10/30/07, 3:04 PM   #502
 Avitus
From the Tales of Yore
 
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Human Paladin
 
Doomhammer (EU)
Originally Posted by Warpony View Post
Was just about to add: Since when should we base our gear around Shade of Akama, possibly the shortest and most gimped fight in T6 content?

Take that 2000 mana (and it won't rly be that high, since i think 90% of us will go for 2-piece bonus) and spread it out over a 20m Illidan fight... I'd much prefeer the small dps increase from warrior items instead of dropping STR and Hit-rating just to push ~5 more exorsisms...
Yea it's an extreme example and I agree the exception shouldn't make the rule, you're right, however that goes both ways. I was offering a counter example to the "it's only 1% of your mana" post (which assumes 50000 mana regenned and a 10 minute fight).


Originally Posted by Kris View Post
Avitus, you take a very extreme example in the case of Illidari Shatterer vs T6. This one applies to you and only you imo. For me, the difference in both is about 35 DPS since don't have precision and I'm not hit capped. The math is never that simple and no real example would give you 5 dps for 530 mana tradeoff. In your case it's 5 dps vs 530 mana and 8 points spent in protection.
I'd argue that any pve build that does not include 8 points spent to get precision is using gimped gear since you'd have to spend a large amount of your gear on +hit to get the cap (instead of taking gear that gives you actual str/crit/agi), while at the same time those 8 points you free up cannot be spent anywhere where it increases your damage.



Anyway, as said, most of this is just an opinion/advice from my personal experience, I know what gear I'll stick to and I do believe the extra mana gives an edge, but I welcome others to try other routes in practice and prove me wrong.

One does not learn more from a discussion if we all just agree with eachother blindly
 
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Old 10/30/07, 3:25 PM   #503
bellator
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
@Myth123

What you have to remember for armour penetration is that we dont know how many points of armor penetration you get for one itemisation point.

There is a Graph Option labelled "Armour penetration / item point" in which you specify this number. If you specify a low number armour penetration looks bad, if you specify a high number it looks good. Until we know the exact numbers we won't know the value of it for retadins
 
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Old 10/30/07, 3:27 PM   #504
bellator
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Paladin
 
Twilight's Hammer (EU)
Originally Posted by DarKNecross View Post
Could this be when you're sitting hit-capped, and comparing Red Belt of Battle to Belt of 100 Deaths? If that were the case, I could easily see it.
If you're not hit-capped, however, the two belts shouldn't be that far off from each other. But I could see how expertise is really amazing.
Yes it was hit capped, but then it is fairly easy at that level to get hit capped
 
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Old 10/30/07, 3:55 PM   #505
myth123
Glass Joe
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Cho'gall
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
@Myth123

What you have to remember for armour penetration is that we dont know how many points of armor penetration you get for one itemisation point.

There is a Graph Option labelled "Armour penetration / item point" in which you specify this number. If you specify a low number armour penetration looks bad, if you specify a high number it looks good. Until we know the exact numbers we won't know the value of it for retadins
I see.
 
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Old 10/30/07, 4:59 PM   #506
Kris
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Shadowsong (EU)
Can't you calc armor penetration based on an item where you know the total ilvl minus what the other stats cost?
 
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Old 10/30/07, 5:51 PM   #507
Aurius
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Durotan
Alright, I have read pretty much this entire thread the last few days trying to incorporate some ideas. I know I have to readjust my talents and thats not an issue. Ive been trying to find a solid answer however, as a Blood Elf, I should be using seal of blood before seal of command correct? If thats not the case perhaps thats why I cant seem to break 500 dps in raids. Need to bring something to the table of what I am doing wrong and to convince our other officers to continue to bring myself as a ret.
 
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Old 10/30/07, 6:12 PM   #508
Strifen
Piston Honda
 
Blood Elf Paladin
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by Aurius View Post
Alright, I have read pretty much this entire thread the last few days trying to incorporate some ideas. I know I have to readjust my talents and thats not an issue. Ive been trying to find a solid answer however, as a Blood Elf, I should be using seal of blood before seal of command correct? If thats not the case perhaps thats why I cant seem to break 500 dps in raids. Need to bring something to the table of what I am doing wrong and to convince our other officers to continue to bring myself as a ret.
Firstly, use seal of blood when you're doing raid DPS.

Secondly, enchant your gear and invest in some proper gems. You cant break 500dps because you have 5 pieces of gear unenchanted along with green gems. Your hit rating is very low, helm enchant will help that out. Look for any blue cloak on the AH with +hit and meele stats and keep an eye out for gear that has +hit on it. Replace leg enchant with the Ap/Crit one.
 
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Old 10/30/07, 6:14 PM   #509
flyingtoastr
Appliance of the Skies
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
Originally Posted by Aurius View Post
Alright, I have read pretty much this entire thread the last few days trying to incorporate some ideas. I know I have to readjust my talents and thats not an issue. Ive been trying to find a solid answer however, as a Blood Elf, I should be using seal of blood before seal of command correct? If thats not the case perhaps thats why I cant seem to break 500 dps in raids. Need to bring something to the table of what I am doing wrong and to convince our other officers to continue to bring myself as a ret.
The only fights you shouldn't be using Blood on are those where you are in danger of killing yourself with the recoil; Prince, RoS phase 2 during Deaden, etc. Otherwise it will give you more stable threat as well as a higher sustained DPS.

After looking at your spec and gear I have few more suggestions too. Spec for Precision and possibly resocket some of your gear with +8 hit gems. Reaching the hit cap (or getting close to it) will improve your DPS a lot. I would also suggest, as a blood elf, to move away from the Spell Damage items you're wearing. Since you'll be using Seal of Blood as your main DPS ability the spell damage is mostly wasted. I would also try to run as many heroics as possible (Blood Furnace in particular) in order to upgrade your Breastplate and get the [Libram of Avengement].

Divine Favor still costs mana.
 
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Old 10/30/07, 6:16 PM   #510
Aurius
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Durotan
Thanks for the quick advice. Will be trying this. (And I know gear was very underdone. Was a fury warroir prior to the pally, and leveled the pally to help the raids when we had no pallys showing for raids and have been playing catchup on rep and gear ever since)
 
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Old 10/31/07, 12:53 AM   #511
grover
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Blackrock
Originally Posted by bellator View Post
Have you tested this our with all spells. as whilst i know % modifiers don't effect the increase damage it gives consecration, i do know that % modifiers do effect the increase damage it gives SoR
I went out and tested JoC, SoC, SoV, JoV, CS, SoR and JoR. SoR is the only ability where modifiers increase the damage that JotC adds.
 
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Old 10/31/07, 1:28 AM   #512
Teer
Von Kaiser
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Sunstrider (EU)
The s3 honor items have lost it spell damage aswell.

 
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Old 10/31/07, 1:47 AM   #513
 _Retribute_
I am America (and so can you!)
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Mal'Ganis
I was hearing this from multiple people that arena gear is actually the best itemized for ret. Does that mean you could probably raid in it? Im trying to bypass as much pve content for the least work. Hey I dont want to run kara 100 more times <>
 
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Old 10/31/07, 1:52 AM   #514
Aurius
Glass Joe
 
Orc Death Knight
 
Durotan
Dang that respec worked wonder. Hit 534 dps for thenight just by respeccing. (And first kill of leo, 2nd horde group on server to do it).

The s3 pvp gear looks great. Might have to start grinding av again pre-patch for the honor on those.
 
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Old 10/31/07, 2:00 AM   #515
flyingtoastr
Appliance of the Skies
 
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Human Paladin
 
Draka
Originally Posted by _Retribute_ View Post
I was hearing this from multiple people that arena gear is actually the best itemized for ret. Does that mean you could probably raid in it? Im trying to bypass as much pve content for the least work. Hey I dont want to run kara 100 more times <>
Is it the best gear? No (other than the gloves, which are the best). Is it damn close to being the best gear? Yes. Even the season 2 set is better than anything you can get in Kara.

Divine Favor still costs mana.
 
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Old 10/31/07, 2:23 AM   #516
Sapp
Great Tiger
 
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Human Paladin
 
<NI>
Detheroc
Season 2 set was by and large fairly competitive for t5 raiding. A selection of the s3 stuff, well, it currently looks like I'll be wearing it in t6 content even with the resilience weighing it down. The Vengeful Scaled chest and gloves are exceptional, and the honor reward boots will likely be worn too.

The honor belt is the best option for an int-granting belt too, beating out tidal call. RBoB is still the best for the slot, however.
 
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Old 10/31/07, 5:17 AM   #517
Fiola
Great Tiger
 
Human Paladin
 
Skywall
Originally Posted by Teer View Post
The s3 honor items have lost it spell damage aswell.
<images>
Hrm. Using MMO-Champion for the old stats:
http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...ndication2.jpg

Bracers:
-22 +dmg
+10 Str

Belt:
-30 +dmg
+13 Str

Boots
-30 +dmg
+13 Str


If they're changing ability mechanics, I want a preview already. = /
 
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Old 10/31/07, 5:35 AM   #518
Valerys
Don Flamenco
 
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Blood Elf Paladin
 
Argent Dawn (EU)
Originally Posted by Avitus View Post
I'd argue that any pve build that does not include 8 points spent to get precision is using gimped gear since you'd have to spend a large amount of your gear on +hit to get the cap (instead of taking gear that gives you actual str/crit/agi), while at the same time those 8 points you free up cannot be spent anywhere where it increases your damage.
Except that items such as Illidari Shatterer have the best stats in their slot even if you ignore the +hit they give.
As for 8 free points, you could e.g. use them to increase your PvP viability, or take both full Imp BoM and Benediction.
 
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Old 10/31/07, 11:43 AM   5 links from elsewhere to this Post. Click to view. #519
Cromfel
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Paladin
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Now I finally found people to give proper test at PTR.

Rogue: Full tier 6 all possible BT epics from Illidan etc
Paladin: Full tier 5 + BT epics and TK/SSC
Warrior: Full Merciless + TK/SSC epics
Druid: Full Merciless + TK/SSC epics
Shaman: Random Kara epics + Merciless

WWS Report from the test.

#1 Massa 1981 (Rogue)
#2 Desdaaja 1548 (Paladin)
#3 Elitetwo 1288 (Warrior)
#4 Inach 1094 (Druid)
#5 Cortesz 811 (Shaman)

Test completed.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/
 
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Old 10/31/07, 12:04 PM   #520
Mearis
Soda Popinski
 
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Dwarf Priest
 
The Venture Co (EU)
1548 is insanely high for a paladin with t5, that's higher than full t5 rogues. Damn, this is going to be a good patch for ret paladins, I wonder if they intended for the buffs to be this big.

Woah NM, blasted lands mobs. I am curious to see what the numbers will be like in raids.
 
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Old 10/31/07, 12:12 PM   #521
Cromfel
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Paladin
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Mearis View Post
1548 is insanely high for a paladin with t5, that's higher than full t5 rogues. Damn, this is going to be a good patch for ret paladins, I wonder if they intended for the buffs to be this big.

Woah NM, blasted lands mobs. I am curious to see what the numbers will be like in raids.
Thats why I took insanely, perfectly geared rogue to give comparison point. The fight is equal for both of us and I had Righteous fury up to make sure he can backstab as much as possible. All I wanted to see is how I compare under those circumstances to extremely well geared rogue. Remember that bossfight gives negative effects in avoidance to both players, but I would gain spell damage related benefits and almost unlimited mana. Changing the same test to boss would have little to no effect to our relative DPS. And if some, it would boost my dps more than hes.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/
 
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Old 10/31/07, 12:18 PM   #522
Mearis
Soda Popinski
 
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Dwarf Priest
 
The Venture Co (EU)
Originally Posted by Cromfel View Post
Thats why I took insanely, perfectly geared rogue to give comparison point. The fight is equal for both of us and I had Righteous fury up to make sure he can backstab as much as possible. All I wanted to see is how I compare under those circumstances to extremely well geared rogue. Remember that bossfight gives negative effects in avoidance to both players, but I would gain spell damage related benefits and almost unlimited mana. Changing the same test to boss would have little to no effect to our relative DPS. And if some, it would boost my dps more than hes.
I am not convinced that relative damage stays the same at different levels of mitigation though, but if it did, that's a huge buff - that puts you at roughly 75% of a very well geared rogue's damage. Right now our ret paladin does roughly 900-950 DPS with windfury and our rogues are around 1450-1500. Going from 66% to 75% is a pretty big change if this pans out.
 
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Old 10/31/07, 12:20 PM   #523
Cromfel
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Paladin
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Here is example of hes gear level compared to mine (zero T6 at PTR).

http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/ww...test_rogue.jpg

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/
 
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Old 10/31/07, 1:34 PM   #524
Argavaine
Von Kaiser
 
Human Paladin
 
Aegwynn (EU)
Where did you do this test? Blasted Lands? Did you tanked the mob? If yes then you have increased dps because of parry counterattack.
 
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Old 10/31/07, 1:47 PM   #525
Cromfel
Don Flamenco
 
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Human Paladin
 
Ravencrest (EU)
Originally Posted by Argavaine View Post
Where did you do this test? Blasted Lands? Did you tanked the mob? If yes then you have increased dps because of parry counterattack.
And are those 7 parried attacks significant portion of the damage? Is it more than the fact that I didnt have JotC judged for spell damage and crit? Were some stars not aligned properly to my favor?

Last edited by Cromfel : 10/31/07 at 2:33 PM.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/
 
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