Valerys

EDIT: Had a brain fart.

 

Ragnor

No it wouldn't, giving us more total mana would make us last slightly longer say 2.5min instead of 1.5min however does a Warrior's rage stop regenerating after 3min in combat in pvp? Does a Rogues energy stop ticking?

In wotlk right now compared to other mana users we appear to burn alot more mana than say warlocks or mages.

The point of a power source (rage, energy, mana, etc) in the game is to limit what you can do all at once, to space out abilities, to make you choose intelligently between available abilities.

It's not going to be fun when your power source burns out way too quickly and doesn't regenerate at all.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

bellator

Is there a source for this change, as i havent heard of a str-->mana conversion for art of war being in place?

I do feel it would be better than you suggest however as you must remember that with the new replenishment and jow mechanic, mana is now also regen.

Take for example (without this art of war thing) a paladin with 6kmana proccing jow every 6 seconds:-

Replenishment Regen = 150mp5
JoW = 100mp5
Total Regen = 250mp5

Now lets say the paladin had 1000str total which means they have 12000 mana

Replenishment Regen = 300mp5
JoW = 200mp5
Total Regen = 500mp5

This is doubling the mana regen.

In terms of gear since 1 str = 1.265 str after divine str and bok = 7.59 mana with this art of war effect, it would mean 1 str would equate to 0.316mp5.

Again, just to reiterrate, remember the regen provided by replenishment and s/jow is based on total mana, thus mana isn't just about longevity anymore its also regen

 

Ragnor

I can't see blizzard giving us 20k mana pools, which is probably what it would take to get anywhere near the 800-900 mana/5 we burn for a simple CS >> DS >> Judgement >> Reseal @ 2min rotation.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

Valerys

Sorry, my bad, I misunderstood a post from this morning.

 

bellator

Darn, you got my hopes up. I thought i could be tempted to go back on the beta servers with this change in place.

 

bellator

Well, in terms of mp5

JoW = 2.5% Mana Pool / 5
SoW = 2% Mana Pool / 5 (assuming proc every 5 sec)
Divine Plea = 0.833% Mana Pool / 5

This totals 5.333% mana pool / 5. A CS>J>DS rotation uses 750mp5 which could be sustained with 14kmana pool and this wouldnt be facotring in SA healing etc.

 

Trakor

Are you guys posting these sort of feedback in the beta pally forums? Blizz needs to understand this, and i dont trust random people to give proper feedback. I much rather have you guys, who trully knows and understand ret, to post the right feedback.

 

Buliwyf

You need a beta key first before you can give feedback on the Beta. I think only 1-2 people here have one. The rest of us just have to wait. I don't think it's worth the effort posting feedback to possible changes of the Beta in the regular forums, I doubt anyone will read it, and if they did, nor would they give it any credence since we haven't actually "tested it".

 

Cerakona

I would love to give my opinion on the mana consumption/regeneration problems we are likely to have in the patch and in WotLK in general, but i think i shall stick to my current dilemma, and worry about the upcoming changes when we see what the next beta build is going to look like - I can't seem them totally screwing us over again after actually making "acceptable" dps improvements.

ATM, i'm raiding in BT/MH in This Gear, and while I am managing to pull off around 1500 dps, I feel like I could boost this a little more with some advice. So, here I am, coming to what I consider to be the expert retribution paladins. For reference: we have Gurtogg down, and we will have RoS down once we can get phase 2 down perfectly (we have a good dps team). I do use Rawr, but I do prefer advice from actual players rather than well-made programs.

 

flyingtoastr

Even at 30% STR > INT you're not looking at much. In my gear right now I have just over 1000 Strength raid buffed. Assuming it stays about the same (it will drop a bit when 3.0 hits and I have to resocket for *twitch* hit rating) you'd be looking at 300 INT from that conversion, or an extra 4950 mana with kings. That increases your Replenishment by 25 mana/second. Going with the calc that we run about 200 Mp5 in the hole to do a basic rotation using every other regen buff in the game it still leaves us in the precarious position of requiring Mana Spring, BoW, JoW, etc at all times and still running out of mana!.

The other problem is that doesn't scale with our damage output at all. The other physical DPS classes have regen that scales directly with the damage they deal. Hunters have AotV, Shamans have SR, Warriors and DK's have Rage and Runic Power respectively. All this does is give us a slow ticing regen that can be dispeled in PvP and isn't even enough for self sufficiency when we don't have a stacked set of buffs.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Fenok

the simpliest is to remove sure foot from your boots to put agi enchant, you have 12 too much hit

 

Wrl

As far as the mana regen issue is concerned, I think one risk with making our mana regen too much is the effect that would have on our ability to heal. Too much mana regen might make us too powerful in 2s and 3s being both a huge dps force and a respectable healer.

I think our mana regen needs to be in line just enough to keep us cleansing and dpsing in PvP for a few minutes before having to use SoW or Divine Plea, but those two should be able to bring us back up quickly enough that we can start DPSing at full capacity again.

I think increasing our mana pool to that of every other mana user is a good idea, balancing out the scaling of mana regen effects and lowering the influence of mana burning effects. The issue that would still remain would be what to scale it off of? We can't rely on +int on gear, but we also can't have it scale off of strength. Strength is already far too important of a stat to us.

Gori | Aja | Secured | Sao | Wrl | Lloem

 

Cerakona

Yes, that is a very viable solution. However, in a few weeks when the patch comes I'm going to be sticking that enchant back on again, to minimise gem resocketing (as well as getting the shoulders from Rage Winterchill and using a 2nd Ring of Lethality to achieve the new hit cap). I was hoping for something a little more open, such as gear upgrades that make sense for current raids. Yes, getting 12 agi is a viable choice, but seeing as i will replace those boots with Dreadboots of the Legion, I will wait re-enchanting until then.

I was hoping for a little more on all of my gear in general rather than the odd little minor thing.

 

bellator

There are a few of us on the boards, and i've been making a couple of posts. Once they've tighted the prot tree (which they've said they will), once i've experienced healing at heroic+ level, and once they've done some more tuneing with paladin mana (which they've indicated they will), I'll comment on these areas.

Unfortunately the blue's arent instilling a lot of confidence in the forums as there have only been 3 blue posts in the paladin section in the last month and a half (one of which was a general post to a number of the sub-forums). It really questions how worth while submitting feedback is.

 

Selenia

You said it better than I could've. A strength -> int or strength -> mana conversion talent is -not- the answer. It's a poor band-aid at best for PvE and doesn't solve the PvP issue at all.

 

Alleyra

I think the misnomer here is comparing Retribution Paladins to casters. We're a melee class -- much closer in line with an MS Warrior or the like. We're not brought to arenas or raids as healers, so I don't think that's really a valid concern. Could we potentially spot heal in PvP? Sure. But we're still nowhere near close to the ability or the efficiency of someone who is primarily a healer. A good comparison would be a Feral Druid with Frenzied Regen. Sure, s/he can heal in a pinch (or Innervate), but they're poor healers overall. Additionally, it would be a huge folly if Blizzard were to start balancing the game around 2v2 and 3v3 games.

The idea is to put Warriors, Rogues, Death Knights, and Retribution Paladins on an even playing field. As has been stated in previous posts: we're the only class of those four that constantly loses longevity and potency as fights go on. A Warrior's rage is infinite, scales, and is only restricted by the Warrior's ability rotation. Energy is exactly the same. Runic Power and Runes regenerate over time. These classes have zero down-time or "recharge time" to restore their effectiveness or ability to deal damage. A larger mana pool only prolongs the inevitable: we will eventually exhaust our mana pool. Without an ability to give us some sort of mana regen that acts like a pseudo-Rage/Energy bar: we won't ever be competitive.

EDIT: Divine Plea is a means for Holy Paladins to recover their mana in lengthy fights. With the inability to chain-drink potions or stack groups for mana regen, this ability was added for their benefit.

 

Foxconfessor

Wouldn't hold your breath for that, it isn't even on the PTR yet.

As for your gear in general, until you can get Lightbringer shoulders & chest, plus the helm from council, I don't really see much scope for upgrades. Maybe Angelista's revenge, if you can spare the hit in other areas, but it could be a short-term upgrade (unless you replace the Band of Devastation, but that's about 3-4 dps difference at most). Some of the major things you lack in terms of BT/Hyjal loot in key areas such as weapon and legs you already have covered with badge loot which is equivalent or better.

S4 helm is an upgrade due to the increased crit and hit (allowing you to potentially drop hit in other areas) but is not part of a pve progression path.

When you say you're managing to 'pull off 1500dps', is that on Teron/Anatheron or a different encounter, because there's a big difference between encounters.

 

• frmorrison

Having to gem for hit is a long way away. I am expecting at least a month for 3.0 testing on PTR and of course the PTR isn't even released yet. I don't know how the developer staff will handle having a 3.0 branch and beta branch, so it could take even longer.


Regarding feedback for beta, even though blues do not respond to most beta posts, if you write something well it most will likely be read.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Wrl

A couple things wrong here...

1. The main reason Rets don't heal often in arenas currently is A: no healing power, B: too much mana. With the older JotW mechanics and sheath of light, both of those limitations are out the window and healing frequently would become a very important part of a Ret's capability in group pvp.
2. You can't compare a SPEC to a CLASS. RET is not like WARRIORS, ROGUES, and DEATH KNIGHTS. I would agree that in PvE ret should have an infinite staying power doing a simple dps rotation, but it would easily become a balance issue in arenas and it can't be to the point that we can keep dpsing/healing/cleansing forever without looking back.
3. A larger mana pool does not really delay the inevitable given the new mechanics on regeneration abilities. Increasing our maximum mana increases the rate at which we regen mana on % based regeneration abilities (JotW/Divine Plea/etc). In addition it dampens the ridiculous effect of mana drain abilities in PvP and prevents priests from taking us out of the fight in under 6 seconds.

I think Blizzard just needs to give us a caster-sized mana pool and balance our skill costs around the amount of mana regen we would be getting from JotW/JoW so that we don't run out of mana doing a CS/DS/Judgement rotation.

Honestly, it is not too difficult to balance our mana regen in PvE. The issues arise when it becomes to much or too little in PvP.

Currently on beta it appears to be disgustingly too low in both respects.

Gori | Aja | Secured | Sao | Wrl | Lloem

 

Selenia

Firstly, compare us to feral druids and enhancement shammies, then. The points remain valid.

Secondly, it would not necessarily be much of a balance issue in arenas. It should be quite possible to tweak the numbers on mana return so you can do your basic rotation in PvE and PvP both, but if you start to do fancy stuff (seal twisting, consecration, healing) your mana pool suffers for it. They've managed to do just that for both Feral and Enhancement.

 

Alleyra

Warriors and Rogues also suffer consequences for Energy and Rage burning. If they start going crazy with abilities, their Rage/Energy bars tap out. They don't have the freedom to burn every cool down/ability as it's available. There is still a throttling mechanic in place -- without one they'd have runaway leads on damage.

I have to completely disagree here. This is likening bringing along a Shadow Priest in order to fill a healing role. Sure, they have the spell damage to heal for a short while, but they lack both the talents, abilities, and longevity to be effective healers. Sheath of Light is a welcome addition to our talent set; but at 33% of our AP, healing will still be dwarfed significantly by a dedicated healer. Not to mention our mana pool would dry up very quickly without any/very little intellect on Ret's gear. If anything, giving us a large mana pool exacerbates the problem of potential Retribution healers -- as there would be far less impact on the Paladin casting those expensive healing spells. Again, I think it'd be foolish to balance solely through the prism of Arenas/BGs.

As Selenia pointed out, Enhancement Shaman are very synonymous with our class; however they have the distinct ability to passively and actively regenerate their mana without really impacting their damage output. There's no reason that we cannot be afforded the same ability or functionality. Especially with the standardization of DPS classes, we must be competitive with other melee classes in order to ensure viability. If we cannot provide comparable melee DPS, raids will simply take Hunters and Shadow Priests along as their mana batteries.

At the end of the day, 1% regeneration is 1%. It matters not if the mana pool is 5000 or 10,000. With abilities costing 12%, 20%, etc. we're still faced with an inevitability: we will exhaust that mana supply at some point, without some sort of ability similar to the older JotW. A larger mana pool just buys a little more bit more time -- a fix for a symptom, not the real problem.

 

Khaelarys

Not to pick nits, but...

I don't really think that consecration is that fancy.

Alleyra:

Also, I'd argue that the mana mechanic is less of a throttle and more of a fuel supply.

Neither rage nor energy shares that quality.

 

DarKNecross

I think most Paladins would prefer a system similar to Warriors and DK's, except where Judgement restores enough mana to support a damage rotation (2CS, 1DS, 1JM, ~1500MP). This would in turn limit the healing capacities, since 1 Holy Light costs 1193MP, 79.53% of the mana returned from Judgement.
It goes back to why the classes without mana are so fun to play - you're focused on the short fight (what am I going to do the next 5-30sec) instead of the entire fight.

http://crimson-guild.com

 

Wrl

Obviously rogues/warriors are throttled by their energy/rage generation. Paladins are not quite that simple and are almost entirely throttled by their DPS cooldowns. This is why I am saying that PvE mana regen should be balanced to be just barely enough to do the 3 main cooldowns, Judgement/CS/DS. From that point we can start wasting mana on Consecration/Exorcism/etc. But in a 30m fight, we can at the very least not lose mana doing Judge/CS/DS.

One of the reasons shadow priests have been a popular 2s/3s choice in the past has been their very potent healing abilities. Every good shadow priest knows when to pop out of shadow form and start churning out heals before switching back in to shadow to start dpsing again. This is also comparable to a Moonkin or Elemental shaman. Healing is generally a very important aspect of their playstyle, and Sheath of Light creates a similar balancing issue and represents a possibly significant shift in playstyle for a Retadin.

I believe that yes, their mana regen in PvE is balanced very well and it works. In PvP, though, mana regen for an Enhance can become very troublesome very quickly such as being CC'd during a Shamanistic Rage. If Enhancement shamans had infinite mana in PvP their options would be a lot more open. I think retadins could be balanced similarly, but the hard part is trying to make it work in PvE without breaking it in PvP an vice versa.

You aren't paying attention to the math. Abilities are not costing % of our TOTAL mana, its our BASE mana. So lets say we have (with the current system) 6000mana at 80 with no INT at all, and no +mana talent. An ability that costs 20% of our base mana will cost 1200 mana. If we get a talent that increases our TOTAL mana to 12,000 the ability will still cost 1,200 but we will be regening at a higher rate. There is a point at which we have enough mana to regen indefintely, although it is currently practically unreachable.


To sum it up:

a. Yes we need to have an amount of mana return that will allow us to do our core DPS abilities on cooldown without ever running out in a PvE situation (such as every other dpser is capable).
b. Our mana return can not be so exorbitant that it allows us to perform more than just our DPS abilities in a PvP environment indefinitely. If we have enough mana return to dps, cleanse, stop and heal, then go back to dpsing without every worrying about mana, it is an issue.

I believe that Blizzard probably saw JotW to be too much mana return for a paladin and allowed him to not ever have to worry about running out, which is silly because if we don't have to worry about it, why do we even have it?

Gori | Aja | Secured | Sao | Wrl | Lloem