tarja

I guess I don't see it as a problem, per se, but from Ghostcrawler's post on the WotLK, I infer that Blizzard does view it as something they wish to avoid. When I read that quote, my immediate thought was "yeah, why DO enhancement shamans even have mana?". But if they're not going to make any changes to Enhancement to make mana management a part of their PVE playstyle, then I see no reason why it really needs to be part of ours.

 

Baldwyn

I would just like to add, is this mana regen issue a problem from base design with regard to healing at all? I've read back quite a few pages and I can't see any comment with regard to SA? Is SA being axed in WotLK? If both factions have Seal of Martyr/Blood and associated Judgements, we would also be getting mana regen from basic healing as well, is this an oversight by myself on core abilities now? Or is this still in the equation? Wondering if that's part of the overall scheme of why they are hesitant to give us better mana regen.
To be honest I say get rid of SA all together, and fix us up properly, as has been stated here, like Enhance shammies. You are correct at the moment in TBC they just don't run out of mana, what with Water shield, mana totem and Shamanistic rage, they have it very good, we desperately need something like this mechanic. I'm confident Blizzard won't leave us out in the cold, they've done reasonably well with the changes so far, I'm a much happier Ret pally from what I see, just wish I could test it .

 

Onmiyoji

I believe it was been mentioned before, although I don't remember what page. Someone did the math supposedly, using a proposed DPS rotation with our new abilities and said we'd need to do about 2200 or so dmg per swing to get enough healing(and mana with SA) to break even. I could be wrong, as well as the person I'm referring to, but I hope it helps.

On a sidenote, how much healing would we really recieve, now that we have DS? We should be healing ourselves to an extent, and although I haven't been in the beta, I would assume this damage from DS would increase as our gear gets better, so its possible that DS may heal us at least enough to take some burden off of the healers trying to keep us topped off. That could possibly be a bad thing, if you count on the mana returns from SA.

 

Deepeaess

I've been reading this thread pretty much everyday, really can't wait to play some Ret Pally come WotLK but just thought I'd post a quick update from MMO Champion.

Retribution
Skills
Hammer of Wrath is now instant cast.

Now hopefully we'll have the mana to use it...

 

Durlindana

I would like to take a step back and address this statement because while i agree per se with it, I personally do not think this is a bad thing!

For arguement sake lets say JotW and JoW scaled with stats/dmg again.

I personally am a firm believer in the fact that raids should scale in ALL aspects. DPS goes up, Healing goes way up, Tank mitigation goes through the roof, Mana return stays the same.... <--- problem

Think about it like this:

In live wow right now, a Shadow Destro lock is probably one of the highest dps casters in the game limited only by their GCD and their life tap scenario. If the raid scaled properly the Destro Lock could actually benefit from the Ret pally getting an upgrade by more mana being returned and less Mana Taps/Mana Potions. Bosses could get more difficult, require more dps from the RAID as a WHOLE not from stacking a single group to the gills.

Continuing with the Replenish theory, what if the % returned was based off of stats. Thus effecting healers as well. Again allowing them to heal more often.

One of the biggest problems I have with WoW is going to be the ease of the instances. They are getting shorter and are less gear dependant than they used to be. While this works well for blizzards profit margins, it annoys me as a raider that realizes the difference between a dps race and a teamwork fight. There should be differences, allowing more unique challenges to guilds instead of the same old " Stay the #@!$ out of the fire!" or "Burn him boys!". Raiding should be more than just showing up 4 nights a week and getting gear.

I'm ranting here but I think that you get the point I'm trying to make. If the mana returned from a paladin was dynamic more doors would be open than closed which is always the point of reworking a class is it not?



*I breifly covered this philosophy earlier in a post several pages back so I apologize to those who read it then but I think its something that needs to be taken into consideration. Raid synergy is a beautiful thing. Dont kill it COMPLETELY (the buffs are bad enough blizzard)!

On a side note:
I am almost positive that it still resets our swing timer thus making it useless in every application other than hoping it kills those pesky runners.

 

flyingtoastr

It hasn't reset the swing timer since beta started, and according to some blue posts regarding things like Slam and Maelstrom Weapon are being adjusted so that there is no swing timer reset, simply a pushback.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Rasputin

Not only has it not reset the swing timer, the previous incarnations allowed you to swing during the cast, like steady shot. Because of that functionality, this is a minor downgrade in dps in exchange for mobility. Previous versions were a .5s cast invoking a .5s CD, and could be used at literally any time in a rotation. I am assuming(perhaps unjustly?) that the new instant cast gives a 1.5s GCD like most other spells, losing us 1s of time in which we could act. On the other hand, it is incredible for PvP, allowing us to cast on the run. I approve of the change, but I thought it interesting that we do lose some minor dps from it.

For the record my testing for the swing during cast time involved finding quick attacking mobs and casting HoW at them, and watching the swing go off during the cast, extended by pushback. It satisfied me but was not really rigorous.

 

Deepeaess

I hadn't thought of the extra 1s of GCD over the current version. I'll happily take the slight stationary DPS hit for the ability to cast that while moving in a boss fight and am very excited to be able to chase someone down and HoW them at the same time.

I'm not sure about the coefficients but with the change in cast time do you think Blizzard will change those at all?

EDIT: More Naxx loot appearing.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...adin_melee.jpg

That's quite a bit of haste on our 10 man Naxx set.

 

Khaelarys

No way. Even at .5 a heal might land before you launch, especially with push back.

Instant is everything in pvp.

 

Borna

After carefully reading the posts so far to the best of my ability I thought i would break down the mentioned issues and arguments about our mana regeneration for the sake of simplicity.

1) Almost all agree that, as things stand now, we have a mana regeneration problem - in other words not enough of it with the current game mechanics and effects. In consequence we are limited in our dps rotation and performance more than other (melee) dps classes.

2) Many people propose (as Avitus pointed out) to return the old or refurbished JotW functionality for the paladin alone and thus make his/hers mana function more like rogue's energy bar, while keeping his/hers base mana pool low. I personally fully agree with this suggestion.

3) Some concerns are voiced (Altirias) that a functionality as proposed in 2), coupled with Sheath of Light mechanics would introduce a possible imbalance, in PVP mostly, with a retribution paladin being able to sustain his/hers dps infinitely with healing included. The emphasis regarding this possible class imbalance is on the healing part, if i understood it correctly, be it self-healing or healing of others.

With all this in view, I see no harm in simply introducing into the beta some functionality similar to the one proposed in 2) (if blizzard decides it of course) and testing out the possible imbalance issues in practice. Until then all we can do is wave napkin math at each other while the key problem (too little mana regen effect) remains.

Now, if the issues mentioned in 3) really assert themselves in practice to the point of retadin's in-combat healing aspect become overpowered, there are several possible (and relatively simple) solutions that can be implemented.

For example the T6 talent, Vengeance, could be modified to reduce the retadin's healing effects by a percentage or similar while he/she is under its effect (which is pretty much constantly), and connect the talent to another one to avoid exploits of simply skipping it in the build. I'd personally suggest the reduced healing effect in that scenario be limited to healing of others alone since self-healing is useful occasionally and can easily be interrupted or similar in PVP when paladin is the focus of attacking.

Example:
Vengeance - "Your vengeful wrath grants you a 1% bonus to Physical and Holy damage you deal for 30 seconds after dealing a critical strike from a weapon swing, spell or ability but makes you less sensitive to suffering (of others) thus decreasing your healing effects (on others) by xx%. This effect stacks up to 2 times."

Two versions, as seen, are possible - one reducing all paladin's healing effects and another that would reduce only healing on others, depending on how the possible imbalance issues turn in practice.
In addition, this talent can be connected to either JotW talent (which is basically mandatory) or, in case non-retadin builds aim at JotW, to Repentance/Fanaticism which are also mandatory in a deep retadin build.

Naturally all this can be modified extensively as would seem most appropriate but this is the general idea.

 

Selenia

Can anyone confirm whether all Judgements have been cut by 50% or whether this just applies to SoR?

 

Soryu

Why does everyone keep saying Retri palas won't have raid utility?

It looks like you have forgotten one of the most important and powerful changes that will make every 10man group want a ret-pally and make most 25mans think we are pretty handy.


Repentance:
Puts the enemy target in a state of meditation, incapacitating them for up to 1 min. Any damage caused will awaken the target. Usable against Demons, Dragonkin, Giants, Humanoids and Undead.

Now how many CCs is there thats working on Giants, Demons and Dragonkins? None on Giants that I know of, one that can't be broken when you want to on demons and one that requires a nontanking druid for the dragonkin.

If your low on mages or priests Ret-pallys will be very handy in helping out with the more common CCs of Undeads and Humanoids aswell. In fact, ALL other classes have crowd controls working on only one or two types of enemys, we will be the only one with a CC working on FIVE kinds of mobs.

Utility is not all about increasing dps, tps and hps you know...

 

DarKNecross

Raidslots aren't about trash, they're about bosses.
Regardless, what happens when your CC gets broken 10 seconds into the duration?

http://crimson-guild.com

 

CaptBooyah

Stun it and fear it (it is naxx right? )

Repentence is also instant which does help alot in tight situations. RF + Exorcise + Repentence undead/demon, run away while raid deals with rest of mobs. When said mob catches you, stun and run. Don't forget the benny hill music.

 

Trakor

Naxx10 DPS Plate sets

Paladin
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...adin_melee.jpg
Str - 351 (+12)
Expertise - 0
Hit - 68
Crit - 222 (+6)
Haste - 232 (+6)
ArP - 0
Sta - 452 (+6)
Sockets - 1 Meta, 3 Red, 3 Yellow, 1 Blue

Death Knight
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...knight_dps.jpg
Str - 346 (+12)
Expertise - 0
Hit - 101 (+6)
Crit - 309 (+4)
Haste - 131
ArP - 0
Sta - 439 (+9)
Sockets - 1 Meta, 2 Red, 3 Yellow, 2 Blue

Warrior
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...arrior_dps.jpg
Str - 345 (+6)
Expertise - 105 (+4)
Hit - 85 (+6)
Crit - 284 (+4)
Haste - 0
ArP - 476
Sta - 439 (+12)
Sockets - 1 Meta, 3 Red, 2 Yellow, 2 Blue


I'm happy to see we got the most Str from those sets. Str for us should now be the most important stat, even more so than hit. I haven't seen any math of Str x Epertise yet, but id say Str will be better as well.

I'm not happy to see we got the most Sta out of those 3 sets. While Sta can be useful when there's incoming AoE dmg, it doesnt help at all with our dps.

We also got the most haste, which is nice since SoB scales well with it, but with 0 ArP, our white dmg will be lacking a bit. Mind you, a lot of our dmg now will bypass armor anyhow, but most of these abilities are on cd, making crit more valuable (after str/ap) for them. And we got the least ammount of crit.

So which is it? There's a bit of a contradiction. We know Str is our most important stat, but do we want haste for white + seal or do we want crit for the abilities on cd? If we go for haste, then ArP will be more useful and we will need to focus on more stats

I believe, in order to get better itemisation from this set, we gotta start by decreasing the ammount of Sta. Then we need to break down Str stat points into Str + AP and the crit stat points into crit + agi. This way we will end up keeping the same ap, the same crit, but will still have points left for expertise and hit.

It's hard to do some real theorycrafting and dmg calculations when we dont know the final coeficients and mechanics for all abilities (and Boss armor), but feel free to speculate.

 

Foxconfessor

Well, yes, you do get more bang for your buck when you 'split the stats', but that's true for all classes and not just paladins.

This is a set from the easiest raid dungeon in the game. It shouldn't have everything on it. Even current sunwell loot very rarely has ArP and haste, it usually has one or the other.

 

flyingtoastr

Actually with more seal procs off instants and the sheer immensity of Divine Storm Armor Penetration is a very lackluster stat for ret. I'm glad they didn't waste any itemization points on it, all that haste is a much better use.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Selenia

Judgements have gotten AP coefficient practically removed. Isn't that a bigger concern than itemisation from one dungeon?

 

• Avitus

I had the same initial reaction, note however that our set only has 1 blue socket, where as their sets have 2x blue sockets, each with worthwhile (STR, HIT) socket bonuses, so they will use purple gems there. It evens out more or less.



Rather than rehashing the same post, I wrote more about it here: WotLK talent trees/abilities discussion (damn double threads)


To be completely honest, I'm a bit tired of having to decipher what they want to do with our damage then telling us they haven't done the numbers pass yet. Feels like an exercise in futility until then.

 

Buliwyf

I'm not too worried about the stamina. At the moment in SWP I get told my my raid I *must have more stamina* citing 12k minimum. I get them to grudgingly accept 11.k stating that that is my stamina gear, i can't go any higher and I have had to remove two of the new T6 SWP pieces to get it... Kalec, Felmyst and Twins I have to do that. Only Brutallus and Muru do I get to wear what I want which is pretty frustrating.

More and more encounters it appears, involve doing large chunks of spell damage to the whole raid. Stamina is needed.

 

• Avitus

To put it in "mild terms", that's really counter intuitive. This is more the case of your raid group really having to reconsider its position than extra stam being good for the class.


(Btw: Your armory indicates a non-guilded level 60 paladin? You might want to fix that.)

 

Foxconfessor

That's beyond silly on the part of your guild's leadership Buliwyf. Can't believe they expect you to meet stamina quotas like that as dps in Sunwell. The best gear is the best gear, you can't just throw it away because some healer has stunted reactions.

But yes, Stamina is not inherently useless, and it's cheap. At the same time I'd be surprised to see raid damage of the same intensity in the new Naxx as we've experienced lately in TBC raiding.

 

Selenia

GC stated yesterday that they've started the numbers pass. Today judgements got nerfed to what seems to be an 0.2 AP coefficient with no SP coefficient at all and it also seems the base weapondamage was lowered slightly.

 

Fiola

That's basically coefficient tweaking. We still have the SP talents in Prot/Ret, so SP only scaling can still work.

Personally, I find it redundant to have AP/SP dual scaling on an ability on top of those SP talents. That seems to have been a major contributor to Ret's "too much damage" problem.


(I'd prefer that they go with dual scaling and dropped the talents, but ah well....)

 

Rheyah

They have altered the scaling slightly and I've posted my results in the main Wrath thread. I'm hoping people will confirm or deny what I found.