I truly believe that replenishment should work off base rather than total mana or that paladin gear needs intellect. It is not reasonable that we are the only mana using class that does not get scaling benefits from replenishment.
Move it to base mana and up the percentage and it would be more equitable.
There are classes and specs other than ret paladins for whom consumption scales and so replenishment needs to scale as well.
EDIT:
Originally Posted by Blackthought
Every other mana user has int on their gear (scaling). Therefore, Blizzard is setting replensihment as a relatively low % of total mana so that mana doesnt become unlimited. This only hurts ret pallies because our mana pools dont scale with gear. Look at the current JotW if used by a holy paladin to see more issues associated with mana returns based on total mana vs. base mana. If replenishment were a % of base mana, the percentage would be higher. This is a benfefit to Ret Pallies because we dont get intellect gear. I thought this point was obvious so I didnt spell it out.
Exactly, every other class' and even holy palies consumption scales and so their replenishment scales. Ret consumption doesn't scale. Now the JotW point is obvious, I don't think the total mana part was intended anyway, it was meant to be base mana from the start.
Ok i see the point you were trying to make there, sorry about the confusion.
Scaling would be a possible solution, but with putting intellect on our gear, it would mean less of the other stats on the gear, due to balancing and item levels(once again, unless I'm mistaken)
Personally, I would rather see them make our mana regeneration able to sustain our DPS cycle, like many in the thread have mentioned beforehand, as opposed to see them fill our gear with intellect.
The comparison to an enhancement shaman's sustained dps in a raid environment is undeniable and should apply to retribution paladins as well. I'm anxious to see the new changes to our regeneration problems, so I (along with many of you) can crunch some numbers on how our sustainable DPS ability is going to be in a raid environment, as well as in a PvP environment. I compete in both aspects and am not biased to either, but our weakness in PvP is undeniable on live right now due to our reliance on our lackluster mana efficiency. Our DPS in the raid environment(mana problems aside) is an entirely different subject, so I won't veer off topic here.
Exactly, every other class' and even holy palies consumption scales and so their replenishment scales. Ret consumption doesn't scale. Now the JotW point is obvious, I don't think the total mana part was intended anyway, it was meant to be base mana from the start.
Please explain how consumption scales when all spells are a % of base mana? Do you mean that they can do more with more mana?
Enh shamans are what people make an example of comparing to ret paladins, it's all very similar but they get infinite mana while ret paladins don't which is why I expect changes to either or both specs. Either they should be just as limited by mana or ret paladins just as free or meet in between.
Mindflay is spriest primary spammable nuke and is affected by haste. It's true that haste isn't the perfect stat for spriests as much as it is for say mage, but that doesn't matter, they do scale with it and Blizzard is actively trying to alleviate these scaling problems for them as well.
EDIT: In essence, the similarity between enh shamans and ret paladins is that their primary nuke is autoattack which never scales in consumption.
Every other mana user has int on their gear (scaling). Therefore, Blizzard is setting replensihment as a relatively low % of total mana so that mana doesnt become unlimited. This only hurts ret pallies because our mana pools dont scale with gear. Look at the current JotW if used by a holy paladin to see more issues associated with mana returns based on total mana vs. base mana. If replenishment were a % of base mana, the percentage would be higher. This is a benfefit to Ret Pallies because we dont get intellect gear. I thought this point was obvious so I didnt spell it out.
Replenishment is designed for mana classes whos mana consumption scales with the gear they get (ie, haste and casting). For us, our mana consumption is constant and doesn't really scale upward from greens to icecrown epics. Therefore an additional mana return to just us is sufficient for replenishment to suck for us. Otherwise your asking for replenishment to be some what better for us, and much worse for everyone else.
Blizzard fixed most mana concerns. JotW gives 20% of Total mana and Divine Plea can be used every minute for 50% less healing put out debuff.
Now make the Tier 10 talent more interesting (it is currently a 2-4% damage increase) and Ret is ready for the PTR.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
There is what I would do for the upcoming 3.0 patch, 18/43 for Ret PvP. Divine Storm is good, but Toughness and 20-30 second Hammer is better for PvP at least.
I love that for an 80 PvE Ret build you pretty much can get nearly every Ret talent and not feel like you wasted points, kudos to the devs.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Art of War + Flash of Light glyph all of a sudden sounds like fun.
Is the damage reductions on the seals and judgements the same numbers we were already seeing - or is this in addition to the lowering of damage we already saw on judgements and seals?
Art of War + Flash of Light glyph all of a sudden sounds like fun.
Is the damage reductions on the seals and judgements the same numbers we were already seeing - or is this in addition to the lowering of damage we already saw on judgements and seals?
I believe the Judgments on beta before were bugged. The new coefficients are already in for each seal on MMOC.
I'm a bit at loss though how to spend the remaining points on the way to 80. They made BoK easy to get for all specs, yet there is still no spec that wants to primarily bless it (ret will bless BoM, especially with the glyph).
Can retadins in beta report how our mana feels now with the new talents (Benediction, JotW)? What kind of dps rotation can you maintain? Are you able to toss in heals at any point?
I would, but there isn't much I can drop from the build, ret tree is so sweet now. I suppose people who hate SoC can drop it and get another point in RV. Dropping Imp BoM is not really an option as I suspect it will be the standard blessing done by ret.
Can retadins in beta report how our mana feels now with the new talents (Benediction, JotW)? What kind of dps rotation can you maintain? Are you able to toss in heals at any point?
I haven't done extensive testing yet, but grinding mobs as fast as I could I was unable to go oom. It feels pretty fantastic to me.
This was using BoM, SoB, CS,DS, and Consecrate on cooldown, and tossing an instant cast flash of light on myself after every pull.
Thanks, so SoB works fine as a grinding seal of choice as well now? That does devalue SoC somewhat further. I wonder if SoB can find its way into PvP more solidly too - I've used it in 3v3 with a war/sham team, since its works with the old WF so well. With the new WF providing haste, SoB seems like still a fine choice, less burst but constant damage and pressure.
Thanks, so SoB works fine as a grinding seal of choice as well now?
My impressions are that yes, it's fine. You'll take some rather high self damage from judgements but due to reduced JoB damage it's not that bad as it was ("oops, I just critted myself for 2k"). As you can now grind judging with light (no mana problems at all), that and DS is going to keep your healt at very comfortable levels.
I would, but there isn't much I can drop from the build, ret tree is so sweet now. I suppose people who hate SoC can drop it and get another point in RV. Dropping Imp BoM is not really an option as I suspect it will be the standard blessing done by ret.
Well, Imp BoM would be pretty pointless with a fury warrior in the group so that talent's pretty situational (have to be pretty lucky/unlucky to not raid without a fury warrior most of the time, guess the non-stackable buffs will see that increase in regularity assuming you have the feral druid/retadin to make the warrior obsolete, buff wise).
As nice as PoJ is, it's not so bad to not have it either (altho I prefer it where possible).
Stacking AoW with Righteous Vengeance just seems far too good to pass up for easily made up for buffs and a little extra reaction-move time. My crit judgments and DStorm hitting for 45% extra as opposed to only 30%, yes please.
Well, Imp BoM would be pretty pointless with a fury warrior in the group so that talent's pretty situational (have to be pretty lucky/unlucky to not raid without a fury warrior most of the time, guess the non-stackable buffs will see that increase in regularity assuming you have the feral druid/retadin to make the warrior obsolete, buff wise).
Eh, Imp BoM is far easier to keep up than BS, affects more people, and with the glyph will be wanted by casters as well. It's one more piece of utility I want my raid to bring me for.
Obviously it depends on what the other paladins in raid will get. I don't see how we can get BoK without sacrificing too much. If Imp BoM is necessary then begrudgingly dropping PoJ looks like the only option that won't hurt DPS.
Eh, Imp BoM is far easier to keep up than BS, affects more people, and with the glyph will be wanted by casters as well. It's one more piece of utility I want my raid to bring me for.
Battleshout might not have the 30min buff timer but its pretty damn cheap and when cast, everyone who uses it should be in range =]
Will we even have access to that glyph at 70?
I see your point and all, but eh the dps and -healing- from DStorm is absolutely awesome.
09/10/08, 3:37 PM
I suppose people who hate SoC can drop it and get another point in RV. Dropping Imp BoM is not really an option as I suspect it will be the standard blessing done by ret.
