Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 22

Djardin · 10/25/07, 2:10 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

99% of the time SoC is the best option. As such you will be placed in a melee group as standard. Now the raid arrives at Morogrim. Whilst your dps might be increased with SoR and consecrating murlocs, without a shadow priest in your group you will not be able to consecrate. Now your shadow priest will be in a group with your AOE experts (mages/warlocks) and probably a shaman for more mana and WoA. Now no raid leader alive would switch out a mage/warlock to allow a paladin to consecrate. Thus you will not be able to consecrate without running oom and crippling your dps, so your role on morogrim will be single targeting him down.

Nothing prevent you from using concecrate rank 1 ... easily spammable during a boss fight without shadow priest and does around 80 DPS per target in spell damage gear, more if you switch to a 1H/shield on a pack.

Originally Posted by bellator

Maybe the term "wasting" was inapproproate. Looking at the spreadsheet. +dmg is 70% more effective at increasing dps than strength and 100% more effective than crit. Thus with this kind of difference, even with the diminishing returns of stacking one stat, pure +dmg may still be better than bringing crit in.

Can't wait to play with your new spreadsheet

Fiola · 10/25/07, 2:19 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

Whilst i agree that +dmg gear would be better to consecrate AOE packs, and that in theory on morogrim if the murlocs were tanked on top of morogrim your total damage might be increased by using +dmg gear and SoR, it's essential to look at the situation in a realistic raid scenario.

99% of the time SoC is the best option. As such you will be placed in a melee group as standard. Now the raid arrives at Morogrim. Whilst your dps might be increased with SoR and consecrating murlocs, without a shadow priest in your group you will not be able to consecrate. Now your shadow priest will be in a group with your AOE experts (mages/warlocks) and probably a shaman for more mana and WoA. Now no raid leader alive would switch out a mage/warlock to allow a paladin to consecrate. Thus you will not be able to consecrate without running oom and crippling your dps, so your role on morogrim will be single targeting him down.

Well, a realistic raid scenario depends on your guild's actual class balance. I'm rarely in a melee group, and I heal at least 50% of my raids (on bosses). I'm personally more likely to see a S-Priest in my group than a Shaman. (My guild has 1 raiding Enh. Shaman and 3~4 raiding S-Priests)

My damage contribution is mainly on trash - and while trash is not sexy, one still need to kill their way through it to get to the boss. Assuming you're already being used in a DPS role, what should you be doing to maximize damage for an AoE pack?

Going back to the boss scenario - what does it mean to "run oom and cripple your DPS"? For mana usage - is it better to spend 660 mana dealing 8000 damage to a murloc pack, or 236 mana for a 1.5k CS? (Using made-up numbers)

But anyways, I'm just throwing out some random thoughts here. Single target DPS is going to be the most common scenario a DPSing paladin will deal with; assuming ideal group setup, melee-focus'd gear will probably yield the best returns.

Avitus · 10/25/07, 2:26 PM

Originally Posted by Fiola

And here's a highly situational reason to use SoR - when you're wearing +dmg gear anyways to consecrate AoE packs.

Hmmm I'm pretty sure that really doesn't need pointing out, does it? With high spelldamage gear, SoR is better than SoC yes.

Point is, is a ret paladin traditionally used as AoE damage? And can they compete with good mages/locks in AoE damage? I'm pretty sure the answer here is no to both, this is from extensive experience, yes even on undead hyjal trash.

I feel and this is just a personal opinion, that we're currently going beyond the scope of this thread, which is purely about competitive ret DPS.

Can SoR under optimal conditions (gear/buffs/group etc) out DPS SoC under optimal conditions in any of the currently existing boss fights? I believe the answer is no here.

Avitus · 10/25/07, 2:34 PM

Originally Posted by Djardin

- JoC is around 5-6% of the damage of a ret paladin itemized in strength
- JoR is around 15% of the damage of a ret paladin itemized in spell damage

Your exact quote is "- +3% spell crit far in the ret tree and +3% spell hit in the prot tree but accessible for a ret pala ... useless for JoC, imba for JoR."

Just saying this change is most definitely not "useless" for JoC since JoC is spell hit, regardless of how much JoC contributes to a ret paladins overall damage.

Fiola · 10/25/07, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

...
Point is, is a ret paladin traditionally used as AoE damage? And can they compete with good mages/locks in AoE damage? I'm pretty sure the answer here is no to both, this is from extensive experience, yes even on undead hyjal trash.

The more important question is if you should bother using AoE damage abilities if AoE will yield more overall DPS than single target damage abilities.

For boss fights, I think you could make the case that the extra AoE damage doesn't help kill the boss faster; thus you should focus on single target DPS, which does kill the boss faster.

For trash, especially AoE packs, you are trying to dish out as much AoE damage as you can. I'm assuming you're already in the raid, and that you're being used as DPS (rather than swapping you out for an extra mage/warlock for trash-clearing). In that case, what abilities should you use? SoC w/ a 2h + consecrate ? SoR w/ a 1h/Shield + consecrate?

I feel and this is just a personal opinion, that we're currently going beyond the scope of this thread, which is purely about competitive ret DPS.

And there's a very wide range of content where Ret is looking to be "competitive" - it's not just about single target raid boss damage. There's 5-mans, PvP, etc.

I can understand skipping the PvP scenarios - but Ret paladins who want to be raid DPS should develop that skill in the 5-mans, too. Furthermore, being able to do a 5-man instance and come in as #1 damage done/DPS is a great way to promote "Ret DPS awareness".

I think the overall goal of this thread is to squeeze every last drop of damage out of our class.

Can SoR under optimal conditions (gear/buffs/group etc) out DPS SoC under optimal conditions in any of the currently existing boss fights? I believe the answer is no here.

And what about realistic conditions?

Theoretically, casters can chain cast their abilities - but realistically they have to deal with lag. Ideally, we do the best damage with a Shaman for WF, Warrior for BS, Feral druid for LotP, and a S-Priest for mana regen. Realistically, the S-Priest will not go in a melee group, and even the paladin may not "deserve" a spot in that melee group.

Realistically, there are situations where SoR is better. All I'm asking is that we identify and recognize those situations.

We're technically not "viable raid DPS" right now, so why embrace old dogmas? = P

flyingtoastr · 10/25/07, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by Prepared

Yay, I can tank 5-mans still! :P

Yes its real. Now everyone can stop complaining that ret pallys fail at tanking (o.0).

Cromfel · 10/25/07, 2:58 PM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Yes its real. Now everyone can stop complaining that ret pallys fail at tanking (o.0).

Now I can give my self permission to grab Redoubt while taking hit talents

Prepared · 10/25/07, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

Now I can give my self permission to grab Redoubt while taking hit talents

Hear-hear! (Or is it "here-here"?)

xellos · 10/25/07, 3:18 PM

Armor penetration and spell damage that was going to be added on S3 ret gear is going to be replaced by more strength.

WoW Forums -> SEASON 3 RETRIBUTION: Complaint Compilation

Seems like good news overall, although I would like to see how much STR they add first.

Avitus · 10/25/07, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

Mongoose - Whats the ppm with white hits or effective uptime in a normal rotation? Will add as an estimation if i can get this info.

I did some digging, almost everywhere I saw a 1 ppm listed.

However, quiet a few people I asked said they experience a much higher proc, which is the same as my personal experience.

After some further digging, the answer was pretty obvious: Instant attacks like CS proc Mongoose too of course. /doh

Since Mongoose is a PPM, slow weapons have a higher chance to proc Mongoose for instant attacks.

For example, a 3.8 speed weapon would have a 1/60 * 3.8 = 6.33% chance to proc Mongoose every CS.

So atm (pre-2.3 buff) CS adds 6*6.33% chance to proc Mongoose per minute = 1.38 ppm

Post 2.3 CS should add 10 * 6.33% chance to proc Mongoose per minute = 1.633 ppm

I'm not certain how JoC/SoC/WF proc Mongoose, I'm halfway suspecting at least JoC and SoC proc Mongoose, not so sure about WF.

My personal experience is something like 50% uptime, which would correlate with 2ppm, however I can't say anything for sure till I do some testing.

For now, 1.38ppm with a 3.8 speed weapon is a minimum, a lot more if JoC/SoC and/or WF apply.

Cromfel · 10/25/07, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by xellos

Armor penetration and spell damage that was going to be added on S3 ret gear is going to be replaced by more strength.

WoW Forums -> SEASON 3 RETRIBUTION: Complaint Compilation

Seems like good news overall, although I would like to see how much STR they add first.

I find that change rather odd, this has to be some kind of lead in for future changes :o

Ankler · 10/25/07, 4:16 PM

Originally Posted by Cromfel

I find that change rather odd, this has to be some kind of lead in for future changes :o

Hopefully this is just Blizzard's first step in better itemization in regards to our retribution sets.

Agonar · 10/25/07, 4:26 PM

Im not sure how i have to understand this changes actually.

1) Does that mean they are removing the EXTRA spell dmg compared to Season2 gears to give more strength?

OR

2) Does that mean they are removing ALL the spell dmg from the season 3 set? Because if im not mistaken we can practically consider +spell dmg to be +armor penetration when using SoC.

Not sure about the good interpretation :\

Meuble · 10/25/07, 4:26 PM

Hopefully this is just Blizzard's first step in better itemization in regards to our retribution sets.

And tree... imo, if they're getting all the s3 SD out at once, it must mean they're planning to make us less dependant to it. Hopefully... well we'll see.
Since they're getting armor penetration all out, maybe there's no point in testing Executionner for rets (apart from the ohsosexy skin, of course)... any toughts?

Agonar: D'oh. Good point.

Cathmor: Yeah. Or that we're gonna have yet-another-talent in ret, giving SD from AP. Like your way better tough, we already have a lot of points to put in that tree.

Cathmor · 10/25/07, 4:28 PM

Originally Posted by Meuble

And tree... imo, if they're getting all the s3 SD out at once, it must mean they're planning to make us less dependant to it. Hopefully... well we'll see.

Perhaps it's a sign that they'll be changing Judgement of Command to be affected by AP instead of spell damage...