I really don't think they quite alleviated the situation with Kings yet. As opposed to before, where it only really made sense for a ret paladin or a prot to pick up kings (talking the supposed 3.0 talents) - we're in a situation where no one really WANTS to pick it up. The only ones that could so so with anything even close to convenience is a BoL Holy PVE build. <shrugs> Not crazy about this solution.

I know there's a difference between every druid having to spec for Innervate, and having one paladin spec for BoK - but it's not any different for that one paladin that's getting the shaft.

Hunters won't be in range for Battleshout and BoM persists longer after you die than Battleshout after a Warrior dies.

Last I recall the BoM glyph is at 400 inscription, so I don't think it will be available until Wrath hits.


The changed kings from an 11 point talent (since those points in prot did nothing for anyone really) to a 5 point talent. Who knows, the Tier 3 single-pointer might end up being excellent anyway. I have had no problem working it into a ret or holy build (0/10/60 + 1 for ret, 51/5/15 for Holy).

Sorry, I got spun around - I thought Avitus was talking about builds at 70 (3.0) - admittedly, that's a temporary issue.

Hunters probably won't get BS.

But as Avitus said you can also ditch PoJ to max out RV, especially if you aren't questing before WotLK anymore.

EDIT: Sorry, missed the posts on the new page.

Anyone else think that they meant to take the incredibly weak Righteous Vengeance talent and move it to Art of War (plus add some healing utility to make it a fun talent), but then they just hadn't come up with something new to put in the place of Rigtheous Vengeance so they just left the old talent in as a placeholder? I don't see any way that RV doesn't get completely changed to something different.

First of all, you have 2 talents near each other doing basically the same thing, which just "feels wrong" (although it can happen - see the new Conviction + Sanctified Seals). But second of all, Art of War is just soooooo much better than RV in every way, despite being a lower tier talent. AoW is 2 talent points vs. 5, it affects Crusader Strike while RV doesn't, has the extra FoL healing utility, and isn't 20% "critical damage" MUCH better than 25% "critical damage bonus"?

Can anyone confirm DS miss mechanics for me? Is it parryable, dodgeable, or just spell resist?

Now with replenishment and still base mana pool it would probably help us out to get a str>int talent of some form, it scales our mana pool allowing more leeway which in turn also scales the mana return we receive from the replenishment portion of JotW.

But yes, with 10 mans i see being able to use just a warrior for battle shout, but for 25 man raids, zomg but you might just have to bring 4 paladins to every raid, 2 holy for imp wisdom/Bok, ret for might, and prot for sanc. I guess you could go without sanc or without might again, but with sanc changed to 3% damage reduction and might giving +dmg as well it just seems to good to not use both on everyone.

My guess is that the spellpower portion of the might glyph won't stack with other spellpower buffs. If it does it really ruins the AP buff category (which is against what they are trying to do) in favor of the blessing. It would still be good for 5 mans, soloing, pvp, etc, but isn't likely to actually stack in a 25 man imo.

My feeling is they should just remove kings from the game or give it to another class since paladins do have access to judgements which will preserve their uniqueness and raidspots.

Maybe... subtlety rogues?

Incidentally, with HoW now being good, will the ret T6 4-piece bonus become useful again?

Sure, it's not wasted anymore. It's still a horrible bonus compared to what the other classes get though.

Compared to things like "do 5% more damage" the paladin set bonuses are really a joke. It will probably work out to something like .6% more damage. Not nothing, but still pretty damn sad. To be comparable to other classes it would need to be something like 50% more damage instead of 10%.

The way I was reading it is as follows:

If Normal damage (X) ---> Crit damage (2X)

20% extra critical damage would be calculated as (Crit Damage = 2X * 1.2 = 2.4X) resulting in a 40% extra damage tacked on, while 25% extra crit bonus would be a straight 2.25X crit or 25% extra damage tacked on. The wording confuses me however, so if anyone can confirm either way that would be swell.

The rest of your argument is spot on however, and it's no wonder a lot of us are scratching our heads over this talent when it's outdone in so many ways by something 4 tiers below it.

We do not know if the spell damage from glyphed Might stacks with the other spell damage bonuses.

Even if that is true, I could see 4 Paladins in a 25 man, although likely not the best choice. At least 3 Paladins in a 25 man does seem like the best choice though.

I have a feeling alot of Ret Pallies will be picking up Kings, and alot of Holy pallies will be getting Imp Might.

There aren't a ton of classes that need both Wis and Might. Ret pallies, Enhanc Shammy, and Hunters are the only one's that come to mind. Ret can sustain itself, Enhance hardly needs BoW, and hunters can sustain themselves.

So why buff an arguably trivial buff when the classes in question would prefer DPS buffs?

Given the new Wis/Might glyphs which increase the lesser glyph to the same length as the greater, but only on yourself, it seems as though they *want* someone buffing might on pallies, then a 10-min wis on themselves. It gives them the same duration, the same buff, and allows them to buff their class with a favored buff, yet give themselves their preferred buff.

The only thing i'm unsure on is where Ret would get the last 3 points for Kings... Might provides 2/5, but there's stilll 3 floating around they would have to 'free',

Changing gears a bit, what are folks using as a DPS rotation to maximize GCD Efficiency? I apologize if this is in a previous page - I skimmed back a few pages and didn't see anything to this effect.

Right now the "in" theorycraft rotation is called a 6/9/11 cycle. It basically means you have CS on a 6 second cooldown, Judgement on a 9 second, and Divine Storm on an 11. It's about equal to CS > DS = J in terms of GCD usage.

*shrug* That's just the one we've been using for now. Once all the DPS balance goes in and we have a good idea of how strong each ability is and can make a call as to the best rotation to use.

You're most likely correct that DS is going to be our highest DPS ability, Judgement is our high utility ability and CS will end up as the filler though.

I received a BETA key, so I can finally help out on some hard numbers testing... though my intention is to level and check out retribution and protection in that setting in particular.

First thoughts... retribution feels great for grinding. There's no downtime, abilities flow naturally once you adjust to the new cooldowns and feel very synergistic (the instant FoLs that crit for hot to keep you topped on the next pull, for example, are great). One gripe, DS, in all its glory, is annoyingly castable when nothing is in range or no one is targeted. I understand it's an AoE effect, but the number of times I had mobs or players within range of it on my end (client side) and missed some or everyone of them is truly frustrating. Hopefully less laggy servers will make it more friendly to use, but making it work more like a "strike", which it is, and forcing a reachable target before casting would make it more intuitive to use for me.

It's coded exactly like Whirlwind, which is usable at any time. You just need to watch out for fatfingering the button and it works fine. Right now I would blame it on the millions of kiddies trying to play at once.

DS is not a strike. Strikes are always single target.

But then how would we unstealth those pesky rogues you know are there?

(I mean.. what are you gonna use.. Consecrate?)

More likely it won't target the rogue who's stealthed right? Like chain lighting or multi shot?

As long as Flyingtoastr is correct in saying that it is exactly like whirlwind then it will pull rogues out of stealth if they are in range. Think of it more like arcane explosion than chain lightning.