Apologies about moving away from the WotLK talk, but I have a question about the Blackened Naruu Sliver. Does anyone know if this trinket procs off of our SoComm/SoB hits? Rawr 16b still places it at the Feral attack speed.
Has anyone given much thought into how to re-gear with these changes? Specifically, I'm thinking of the effects of hit and armor penetration. Armor pen, already weak for us, gets even weaker due to a shifting of our dps breakdown towards holy damage, as well as a change in its mechanics. I'm looking at rings for instance, and I'm not sure that Ruinous Delight will even beat out the Gurtogg ring, which has more AP and only 2 less crit even BEFORE Divine Strength and Kings. Additionally, I'm wondering whether it's worth it to gem for hit to reach cap, as opposed to just stacking strength, since we no longer maintain judgements with CS, so an occasional miss won't make us weak at our raid job. I'm seriously considering throwing on the Gurtogg ring and using a haste cloak and neck over hit items come 3.0. It's mostly guesswork for me at this point since I'm not proficient enough in spreadsheet voodoo to muck around in Rawr, but those are my impressions on those two stats.
As it is now with auras affecting all raid, 30 yards is unlikely to be enough in many fights. I really hope the explanation is that Blizzard just forgot to line up Paladin's auras with others, as I can't see no logical reason for having only Paladins with 30 yards and rest of classes with 45.
This indeed is a big concern, and I know it has been brought up a few times on the main pally boards, I can't speak for the beta forms.
I'm with you, i can't think of any logical reason why either aura mastery isn't folded into Imp Ret Aura / Swift Ret, or all auras made baseline 45 yards. For a melee class to be expected to be within 30 yards of an entire raid really is unrealistic, and not making all out of 5 talent points that they really should be worth.
This indeed is a big concern, and I know it has been brought up a few times on the main pally boards, I can't speak for the beta forms.
I'm with you, i can't think of any logical reason why either aura mastery isn't folded into Imp Ret Aura / Swift Ret, or all auras made baseline 45 yards. For a melee class to be expected to be within 30 yards of an entire raid really is unrealistic, and not making all out of 5 talent points that they really should be worth.
I see a thread on WotLK forums (where I can't post) being bumped regularily, including by FlyingToaster. Try to keep it up until we get an answer of some kind, please. Thread name is Aura Improvements? for GC.
Has anyone given much thought into how to re-gear with these changes? Specifically, I'm thinking of the effects of hit and armor penetration. Armor pen, already weak for us, gets even weaker due to a shifting of our dps breakdown towards holy damage, as well as a change in its mechanics. I'm looking at rings for instance, and I'm not sure that Ruinous Delight will even beat out the Gurtogg ring, which has more AP and only 2 less crit even BEFORE Divine Strength and Kings. Additionally, I'm wondering whether it's worth it to gem for hit to reach cap, as opposed to just stacking strength, since we no longer maintain judgements with CS, so an occasional miss won't make us weak at our raid job. I'm seriously considering throwing on the Gurtogg ring and using a haste cloak and neck over hit items come 3.0. It's mostly guesswork for me at this point since I'm not proficient enough in spreadsheet voodoo to muck around in Rawr, but those are my impressions on those two stats.
Not sure if Ruinous delight will beat out Gurtoggs ring, but the ring from Illidan should definitely beat Gurtoggs ring. Roughly the same AP with hit instead of crit (Hit is now the second best stat I believe after strength and we will need it after the loss of precision) with a little bit ArP. That ring could be best in slot now.
* Seal of Vengeance now deals [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ] additional Holy Damage over 15 sec. (Down from [ 23.4% of AP + 11.4% of Spell Power ])
* Seal of Corruption now deals [ 19.2% of AP + 9.6% of Spell Power ] additional Holy Damage over 15 sec. (Down from [ 23.4% of AP + 11.4% of Spell Power ])
* Seal of the Martyr now deals [ 28% of Min. Weap. Damage. ] to [ 28% of Max. Weap. Damage ]. (Down from [ 35% of Min. Weap. Damage. ] to [ 35% of Max. Weap. Damage ] )
* Seal of Blood now deals [ 28% of Min. Weap. Damage. ] to [ 28% of Max. Weap. Damage ]. (Down from [ 35% of Min. Weap. Damage. ] to [ 35% of Max. Weap. Damage ] )
* Fanaticism now increases the critical chance of judgements capable of critical hits by 5/10/15/20/25%. (Up from 4/8/12/16/20%)
* 2-Handed Weapon Specialization now Increases the damage you deal with two-handed melee weapons by 2/4/6%. (Up from 1/2/3%)
* Seal of Command now gives the Paladin a chance to deal [ 56% of Max. Weap. Damage ] to [ 56% of Min. Weap. Damage. ] additional Holy damage. (Old - [ 70% of Max. Weap. Damage ] to [ 70% of Min. Weap. Damage. ])
In short, seals nerfed but 2 talents reverted to values prior to last patch. The latter will, I'm sure, be found very welcome. Won't say anything for Command nerf because PVP is nowhere on my interest list atm. However very interested in your thoughts about the Blood/Martyr nerf.
Looking at the nerf to Seal of Blood/Martyr, its going to be noticable at lvl 70 i think. Here's a little quick simple math:
lets take an average rounded figure - 1200 damage swing attack. 35% of 1200 = 420 seal damage approx
With it going down to 28%, its more like 336 seal damage approx. Thats 84 damage missing per swing.
If we take into account standard raid buffs that most people have/take advantage of, that swing is worth more like 1800 damage;
35% of 1800 = 630
28% of 1800 = 504
Average loss of 126 damage per swing.
At first it doesn't look like much, but in a 5 min fight, thats quite alot of damage missing - to the tune of around 10'800 damage approximately (+/- 100). That damage could be the difference between an enrage timer kicking off or not, and it is nothing to wave an idle hand at in "who cares about a little thing like that pitance damage." (IF I worked it out right, that damage difference is worth around 35 DPS - though my math is probably off.)
It'll be a little worse in 3.0 as well, since CS and DS will equally lose around the same amount of damage +/- 25 damage. Its not an extreme nerf in that respect, but it IS something that we are going to notice in time-critical fights.
Its a simpler process if we look at it top-down rather than bottom-up, if seal dps is 20-25% of damage output (which seems like the right ballpark. It certainly can't be higher than that.), then ret pallies will lose ~4-5% of dps. 2h weapon specialization only affects white damage, right? Assuming 40% white damage, that's 1.2% added back, plus a bit more from the better seal crits from fanatacism. Lets call it 1.5%.
So, that's -3.5% damage. If you're currently at 1000 dps, you'll be losing ~35 dps. At 2k dps, you'll be losing ~70 dps. Substantial, but hopefully not game breaking.
Umm...quick question. Why the hell isn't Marty/Blood the BEST PvE seal? For gods sake, it costs LIFE to use, yet it seems that it won't be able to keep up with righteousness. If my seal can kill me, it damn well better give out better DPS. Or are they nerfing it on the basis of "Well, he can get mana back from it..."?
Also, I haven't been able to keep up with the rapid-fire nerfing/buffing of pallies. Is mana going to be a problem for us to begin with in a standards FCFS CS/J/DS rotation? If so, then nerfing the seal makes even less sense since the mana return from the self-damage being healed is useless. It now becomes a seal whose only function is to drain your life while being sub-par. Or did I miss a righteousness nerf?
@Wrathblood: Two-Hand Weapon Spec affects auto-attack, Crusader Strike, Divine Storm, Seal/Judgement of Blood and Seal/Judgement of Command, since they all use weapon damage. That being said, I'm not sure if a 20% reduction in Seal damage (which procs off auto-attacks, CS and DS) is larger than a 3% increase in all our attacks (to varying degrees).
@Jonuts: No, a CS/J/DS rotation has absolutely no mana problems, and is in fact slightly mana positive self/raid-buffed.
Umm...quick question. Why the hell isn't Marty/Blood the BEST PvE seal? For gods sake, it costs LIFE to use, yet it seems that it won't be able to keep up with righteousness. If my seal can kill me, it damn well better give out better DPS. Or are they nerfing it on the basis of "Well, he can get mana back from it..."?
Also, I haven't been able to keep up with the rapid-fire nerfing/buffing of pallies. Is mana going to be a problem for us to begin with in a standards FCFS CS/J/DS rotation? If so, then nerfing the seal makes even less sense since the mana return from the self-damage being healed is useless. It now becomes a seal whose only function is to drain your life while being sub-par. Or did I miss a righteousness nerf?
Gah, head spinning...
I have spent some time on the PTR testing, and you cannot spend your mana if you are doing a normal dps rotation. Even without kings or Int buff I could spam Judgement, DS, CS, HoW on the cooldown and mana hovered just below full the entire time. You can't go around blasting off Holy Lights, but you sure can go to town on dps.
Blood is only _very_ marginally ahead of SoC for dps at this point. Since SoC is no longer nearly as insane for pvp burst it strikes me as entirely reasonable that our talented seal is the best one overall for raiding. It is clearly best for pvp and now it is a nice choice for pve. You do need the Glyph to be competitive with Blood mind you, but we do easily have room to put that in. You will see some big Blood crits and unless the recoil on that is lowered I suspect everyone will be using SoC to pve with.
At 70 there is no way you will have the points for Seals of the Pure, and without that I don't think there is much of a contest, Command should win out over Righteousness.
This strikes me as odd as what is the point of SoB then? Non-ret pallies using two-handed weapons to farm? Furthermore, our Naxx tier sets are loaded with haste, which still seems to support SoB better.
At the end of the day, SoCommand is just basically nerfed crappy version of Windfury Weapon - I can't see why they just make it work like WFW in terms of proc rate (30%) and internal cooldown (4 Secs), leaving us with a holy-damage proc attack and shamans with their two extra attacks - especially with that fact that WF totem is a haste effect rather than extra attack effect now. That would solve that issue of its effectiveness and make it actually worthwhile.
In terms of blood, the damage decrease does make it less lovable to retribution now than before, but i'd still use that over SoCommand unless they made it more useful as a raiding seal. Otherwise, SoB/SoM + Haste = more effective seal/white damage when you have at least 150 haste rating+ (300+ for lvl 80).
Anyone got any opinions about my first comment here about changing SoCommand? I can't think of it being that bad an idea, myself.
Keep in mind that SoC scales with haste now. It is no longer on the old (and terrible) proc system, haste will give you more command procs so overall its damage is just fine. It still has a very short internal cooldown though, which means that you don't get as many procs as you would otherwise think when your strikes coincide with your white attacks.
SoC scales with haste? How so? Does it take the PPM value percentage derived from our weapon speed and apply it to all attacks now? If that is the case and it takes the base weapon speed and allows it to proc more than 7 times per minute due to the yellow attacks, then yes it would be better, however if not that would make it less valuable. I do recall reading somewhere that seals can proc off all attacks but the thing that confuses me is the proc rate and how it is going to be calculated.
SoCommand Proc chances are now calculated on base weapon speed and instant attacks can proc them (as can Judgements from the looks of things). The proc chance remains the same regardless of haste, and hence the Seal scales.
The only apparent problem with SoC right now is that it appears to have a small internal cooldown. Because of this were SoC and SoB to have identical DPS the internal cooldown on SoC procs would still make it slightly less than optimal compared to SoB. Thus in terms of absolute DPS SoB is probably better, but it very much depends on how well their respective Judgement damage scales.
This strikes me as odd as what is the point of SoB then? Non-ret pallies using two-handed weapons to farm? Furthermore, our Naxx tier sets are loaded with haste, which still seems to support SoB better.
SoB still does more damage then SoC over time if you have enough haste. Non-Ret pallies will use other Seals.
Note the devs are using Patchwerk to help equalize dps numbers, so if the latest Seal nerf was too much, it can be changed.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
SoCommand Proc chances are now calculated on base weapon speed and instant attacks can proc them (as can Judgements from the looks of things). The proc chance remains the same regardless of haste, and hence the Seal scales.
Yes. Judgement can proc SoC, SoB and SoV. It cannot proc SoR at the moment. Why that is I have no idea.
The proc chance does indeed stay the same regardless of weapon speed, so SoC scales just fine.
One note is that JoC scales at 30% of weapon damage and JoB scales at 25%. This means that JoC does roughly 5% more damage overall given how much you get from AP, SP, but SoC does roughly 8% less than SoB.
Blood ends up slightly better (~1%), but you take more damage. Your mileage will vary depending on the fight you happen to be involved in at the time.
So it seems that despite the veiled promises of yesterday, the design intent is not really so much different from live, wherein hybrids(including us) are stuck several hundred DPS below "pure" classes, unless the people playing those classes are...not so good at their job.
Ret should be as close to the top as anyone else. Our buckets at this point are basically DPS, Tanks, Healers. When the tank and healer are doing dps, it's even closer.
You may be a couple hundred dps lower than a pure dps class (hunter, mage, warlock, rogue) but for most players, the numbers will be close enough that a raid with a good Retadin and an okay rogue will see Ret on top.
This is a change in philosophy from the BC era, where we would engineer hybrid classes to be 25% to 30% and sometimes much lower than dps classes.
The quote is odd to me, as it seems to contradict itself. First she says every DPS is in the same bucket, then she explicitly draws two different buckets into the DPS. I'm not sure if the developers simply don't follow high-end raiding, but how can they think that a few hundred DPS is the same as "near equal" or "as close to the top as anyone else"? With the dilution of utility, it seems feasible if not probable that whatever ends up being the worst hybrid DPS will simply get benched, since nobody provides any unique utility. It will again be a game of stack up all your raid buffs/debuffs, and throw a lot of rogues and hunters at it. Disappointing to hear.
Well, good thing I have a hunter and rogue. Now to get them leveled
Honestly, if you're nerfing someone because of utility, it better damn well be unique utility. Congrats, everyone can do everyones job. Gonna be 6 healers, 3 hybrids for buffs (Hell, maybe 2..) and a buttload of hunters/rogues. I honestly think the guys that decide this crap never played the game...
EDIT: Just re-read that post you quoted. You're talking about (4800 dps and a bunch of utility) vs (5000 dps and less utility). That makes the decision on who to bring come down to the player gear/skill/etc.
Since a lot of attacks will overlap (CS + white, DS + white), and since it seems DS can't proc SoC more than once (based on 2nd hand info), that would reduce SoC's effective proc rate and make SoB come out ahead.
Since a lot of attacks will overlap (CS + white, DS + white), and since it seems DS can't proc SoC more than once (based on 2nd hand info), that would reduce SoC's effective proc rate and make SoB come out ahead.
My testing showed that you should expect something like a 46% proc rate on SoC with the Glyph even after the internal cooldown is accounted for. Since SoC does 2x the damage of SoB, the seal portion is doing something like 92% of the damage, while the Judgement is doing around 105% of JoB.
Overall SoB is a higher damage seal, but the difference is really going to be less than 1% of your total output. On patchwerk, use SoB. On Sapphiron, use SoC.
I have spent some time on the PTR testing, and you cannot spend your mana if you are doing a normal dps rotation. Even without kings or Int buff I could spam Judgement, DS, CS, HoW on the cooldown and mana hovered just below full the entire time. You can't go around blasting off Holy Lights, but you sure can go to town on dps.
Blood is only _very_ marginally ahead of SoC for dps at this point. Since SoC is no longer nearly as insane for pvp burst it strikes me as entirely reasonable that our talented seal is the best one overall for raiding.
Given your data I honestly don't see the point of using SoB EVER unless really trying to squeeze that final 1% (or less) of your DPS at any given point, since mana returns from Spiritual Attunement seem to be a non-issue. But then again - where does that ultimately leave SoB?
Given your data I honestly don't see the point of using SoB EVER unless really trying to squeeze that final 1% (or less) of your DPS at any given point, since mana returns from Spiritual Attunement seem to be a non-issue. But then again - where does that ultimately leave SoB?
In a raid, it is worth to do something that gives another 1% damage (I doubt it is that low, but isn't too much better) to use SoB, especially since DiS heals most of the damage anyway. More mana is never a bad thing, especially if you start throwing Hands and Cons into the rotation.
I don't see the issue, SoB means you need a heal once in a while but do more damage and for PvP, SoC is a no-brainer.
Also, there may be another Prince where SoB can kill you, so SoC is good to have for people that do not PvP.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
09/24/08, 10:37 PM
