Note I am not sitting on a cooled down CS just to wait for Judgement, I never suggested that was a good idea. I simply use FCFS and hit Judgement first if several abilities are available.
What about the case where CS or DS comes off cooldown and there is only 1sec cooldown on Judgement left, do you delay the 1sec and use Judgement first since the cooldown on it is less than the cooldown of a GCD?
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
First example: 4 Judgements, 3 CS
Second example: 4 CS, 3 Judgements
The first example is actually more total damage and dps than the second!
However neither are realistic examples because they don't include DS or Consecration.
It's because I only showed 20 secs. But like I said, over a longer period of time, its less dps loss. Let's look at it over a min...
1st example: 8 judgements, 8 CS
2nd example: 7 judgements, 11 CS
You are swaping 3 cs for 1 judgement. And you will also keep the 135ap buff from the libram 100% of the time. And the fact they dont include DS or consecration is irrelevant since I'm just comparing priorities between the CS and judgement (for highest dps over time), while you are talking about FCFS. But yes, DS and consecration would be part of the priority rotation as well ---> CS > Judgement > DS > consecration.
Originally Posted by Redcape
If it takes you .5 seconds to hit an ability after the GCD, you need to get a better connection or pay attention to the game. You should be at more like .1 seconds after the GCD closes. I did a full rotation of CS, DS, Judgement and Consecrate over 90 simulated combat seconds using a Judgement>DS>CS>Consecrate priority and ended up with average cooldowns of
Like I said, the 0.5 is to account for latency and human reaction. I personally raid at around 600ms, because I'm in NZ playing on Oceanic server (whis is still based in USA). I know this doesnt apply to most people, but....
I assume its a typo there and for DS it was actually 10.65. Note that you are also using most abilities with at least 0.5sec delay. Judgement is good, 8.1. Everything else has more than 0.5 secs delay.
Originally Posted by Redcape
Also you might like to note that everything gets better as your gear gets better. In this case everything includes Strength, AP, Crit, Haste, Hit, Expertise, Spellpower, Weapon Damage and Agility.
Not necesserely. Look for example HoW. We gain 50% crit from talents, and fully buffed, I already have 45% crit. This means HoW will have 95% crit rate. In this case, 1% crit would result in less than 1% dps dps increase for HoW.
What I'm saying is that you need to look at your stats, your gear, your rotation, your buffs and consumables, your procs and temporary buffs uptime. Then work out how much of each stat would be required to give you an overall 1% dps increase. Then you need to look at item budgeting and figure out how much of each stat would give you more bang for your buck. Sure, its complicated, complex, but this is why I like Rawr, as it allow us to analyse all that quite easily. By the way, would Rawr be coming out before 3.0 or after?
Originally Posted by Ragnor
What about the case where CS or DS comes off cooldown and there is only 1sec cooldown on Judgement left, do you delay the 1sec and use Judgement first since the cooldown on it is less than the cooldown of a GCD?
This is why im in favor of working out a proper rotation than using FCFS. Haste should also affect GCD of certain abilities, which would possibly then change rotation a bit.
I assume its a typo there and for DS it was actually 10.65. Note that you are also using most abilities with at least 0.5sec delay. Judgement is good, 8.1. Everything else has more than 0.5 secs delay.
/facepalm
That is because there are GCD and rotational collisions that are unavoidable under ANY system. This is not my delay in hitting my buttons, but rather the inherent loss of time due to cooldowns not being divisors of each other.
Originally Posted by Trakor
Not necesserely. Look for example HoW. We gain 50% crit from talents, and fully buffed, I already have 45% crit. This means HoW will have 95% crit rate. In this case, 1% crit would result in less than 1% dps dps increase for HoW.
What I'm saying is that you need to look at your stats, your gear, your rotation, your buffs and consumables, your procs and temporary buffs uptime. Then work out how much of each stat would be required to give you an overall 1% dps increase. Then you need to look at item budgeting and figure out how much of each stat would give you more bang for your buck. Sure, its complicated, complex, but this is why I like Rawr, as it allow us to analyse all that quite easily. By the way, would Rawr be coming out before 3.0 or after?
Do you understand what my spreadsheet does? I didn't pull those numbers out of my nether regions. It takes the gear, stats, raidbuffs, talents, etc. and calculates your dps. Then it adds 100 to a specific stat, does ALL the dps calculations again and then subtracts. It isn't some arbitrary thing I made up, it is a literal representation of a level 80 paladin with full Naxx10 gear in a fully buffed raid. My sheet does what you are suggesting a sheet should do, you just don't seem to be able to grasp that.
Originally Posted by Trakor
This is why im in favor of working out a proper rotation than using FCFS. Haste should also affect GCD of certain abilities, which would possibly then change rotation a bit.
Hey, feel free to work out an enormous rotation. After doing that, you will find that your crazy rotation is just flat out worse than FCFS, and you will be stuck with either your rotation or joining the rest of us on the 'maximizing my dps' bandwagon.
Like I said, the 0.5 is to account for latency and human reaction. I personally raid at around 600ms, because I'm in NZ playing on Oceanic server (whis is still based in USA).
I play from NZ also, why aren't you using wowtunnels (or any ssh tunnel service to a US host) to get around the nagle alogorithm/tcp delayed acknowledgment problem (nagle alogorithm is still ON at the server end!!!).
There's no reason why you shouldn't be getting 150-250ms instead of 500ms. A lower ping makes a much better difference than whether you do CS > Judgement or Judgement > CS
Also, I think it's just not going to be practical to have this long rotation that doesn't repeat until after 40 or 60sec.
The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.
/facepalm
That is because there are GCD and rotational collisions that are unavoidable under ANY system. This is not my delay in hitting my buttons, but rather the inherent loss of time due to cooldowns not being divisors of each other.
Originally Posted by Redcape
Hey, feel free to work out an enormous rotation. After doing that, you will find that your crazy rotation is just flat out worse than FCFS, and you will be stuck with either your rotation or joining the rest of us on the 'maximizing my dps' bandwagon.
The fact is my rotation allowed for a 0.5 secs delay and your arugement and your calculations are based on the fact it doesnt, when it obviously needs to. Like I mentioned before, prioritising CS over judgement means you are swaping 1 judgement for 3 CS and keeping +130ap 100% uptime. Your rotation keeps the buff up 75% of the time, at best. FCFS bandwagon surely can be good enough, but i dont see how its the best, as you claim.
Originally Posted by Ragnor
I play from NZ also, why aren't you using wowtunnels (or any ssh tunnel service to a US host) to get around the nagle alogorithm/tcp delayed acknowledgment problem (nagle alogorithm is still ON at the server end!!!).
I've heard of people geting baned becasue of it. A friend of mine does use it though, but he always lags real bad when tanking twins and doing Muru, and he is still unable to identify what causes it. He starts these fights with 200ms and and 30 secs later he's already on 3k+. I'm not suggesting it's wowtunnels, but we know it isnt hardware, it isnt mods, it isnt drivers, it isnt other applications using the net. But hes the only one using wowtunnels and the only one with this problem.
Originally Posted by Ragnor
Also, I think it's just not going to be practical to have this long rotation that doesn't repeat until after 40 or 60sec.
I'm not suggesting you to macro it, its just a priority system of what to do when 2 or more abilities come out of the CD at approximately the same time.
The fact is my rotation allowed for a 0.5 secs delay and your arugement and your calculations are based on the fact it doesnt, when it obviously needs to. Like I mentioned before, prioritising CS over judgement means you are swaping 1 judgement for 3 CS and keeping +130ap 100% uptime. Your rotation keeps the buff up 75% of the time, at best. FCFS bandwagon surely can be good enough, but i dont see how its the best, as you claim.
Why do you keep assuming I am using your crazy rotation that makes CS only go off each 8 seconds? I don't have a .5 second lag on hitting buttons, and I don't see how you raid anything with that kind of latency. When you prioritize Judgement you hit
0 - Judgement
1.5 - CS
7.5 - CS
9 - Judgement
Look back at my post. Notice this. This is NOT swapping 1 Judgement for 3 CS. This is delaying CS by 1.5 seconds if and only if it collides with Judgement. Have you modeled a FCFS rotation on a spreadsheet for several minutes of simulated raid time? How about a model where you prioritize CS? I have done both, and I can tell you for certain that FCFS is the strongest, highest dps rotation. Until you have actually done the homework, please stop insisting that you know something about the topic.
I don't have a .5 second lag on hitting buttons, and I don't see how you raid anything with that kind of latency.
This is exactly the point. You don't see how we raid at high latency but somehow, we do! I think you need to read what he has written slightly more carefully and not dismiss him out of hand.
In reality most of us do raid at 200-400ms latency although there are many people in our raids who sit at 500-600ms every single night.
I was raiding on beta with Trakor and I'm fairly sure there is some misunderstanding going on here since we were discussing/arguing about this after the raid. Basically in high latency situations we're advocating that you prioritise CS > Judgment > DS in the case of a clash. Otherwise it is FCFS. I modelled it and found that over a long enough period of time it does settle into a rotation but it is far too complex to memorise and trying to macro it would be stupid.
In any case there are times when saving a cooldown might be best. On Malygos for instance you really want to prioritise CS over anything else especially before the whirlwind since it is highly likely you won't be in melee range but will still be able to cast Judgment and Divine Storm while affected. Similarly for Maxaena you probably want to save Divine Storm for the spider bugs and assist with their aoe. This is particularly true in a 10-man environment.
This is exactly the point. You don't see how we raid at high latency but somehow, we do! I think you need to read what he has written slightly more carefully and not dismiss him out of hand.
In reality most of us do raid at 200-400ms latency although there are many people in our raids who sit at 500-600ms every single night.
Then write or modify the spreadsheet for that kind of latency for yourself. But don't argue over the best rotation on that basis - most of the people on the ej boards don't operate in those absurd conditions. Trakor seems to be insisting that *everyone* has 500 ms or latency.
Originally Posted by trakor
The fact is my rotation allowed for a 0.5 secs delay and your arugement and your calculations are based on the fact it doesnt, when it obviously needs to.
If you'd like to make some theorycraft argument about the best rotation in very high latency, make a new thread and talk about that there. At the very least, don't assume that the people that make the spreadsheets (have you looked at that thing!?) are morons that don't know what they're talking about.
Then write or modify the spreadsheet for that kind of latency for yourself. But don't argue over the best rotation on that basis - most of the people on the ej boards don't operate in those absurd conditions. Trakor seems to be insisting that *everyone* has 500 ms or latency.
If you'd like to make some theorycraft argument about the best rotation in very high latency, make a new thread and talk about that there. At the very least, don't assume that the people that make the spreadsheets (have you looked at that thing!?) are morons that don't know what they're talking about.
I did write my own spreadsheet based on my own non-absurd conditions. I don't see how it is helpful to be so defensive/angry/dismissive of people who are merely trying to add to the known knowledge base. If nothing else it is a helpful thought-experiment to imagine how a "rotation" performs under latency or bad-reaction time.
Finally, can someone explain this fundamental concept I appear to have missed:
Originally Posted by Redcape
If you have choices because multiple abilities just came off cooldown you hit the highest damage ability first
Perhaps my thinking is off but this does not appear to be a self-evident fact. For burst damage I can see how this is the case, but for sustained damage what matters would be the amount of times you use each ability. Surely wouldn't the technique for resolving collisions be: Prioritise whichever ability that "prevents" collision for the longest amount of time.
Edit:
Note that I use the word rotation knowing that it isn't strictly accurate. It appears to be a fun thing to do in this thread to attack someone because they use the word rotation when they are, in fact, speaking about a FCFS system but merely using the "r-word" as a convenience.
I'm doing the stupidly mindnumming list of abilities and their uses as they turn up. Basically in a three minute rotation there might be a good time to delay judge for one more GCD in order to prevent further collisions later on, but you are not going to notice any real difference in dps (if it turns out avoiding a collision further on is a dps gain, this is still to be disputed). So just do FCFS and when both are up whoever does more damage.
Look, right now, on live, we consider a good rotation to have cs every 6.5 secs and judgements every 8.5 secs, with cs > judgement when they clash. The reason for that, as discussed here before, is due to lag and human error/reaction time. We have seen several WWS reports and we dont often, see a rotation, if at all, where cs was used every 6 secs. We can theorycraft and assume 0 ping and no human error whatsoever, but it is not what happens, at least most of the time, when we see the actual results.
Making a rotation or theorycrafting on numbers assuming 0 ping and perfection all the time from humans is wrong and will provide wrong results.
Originally Posted by Andrast
Perhaps my thinking is off but this does not appear to be a self-evident fact. For burst damage I can see how this is the case, but for sustained damage what matters would be the amount of times you use each ability. Surely wouldn't the technique for resolving collisions be: Prioritise whichever ability that "prevents" collision for the longest amount of time.
I totally agree with you, and its what I have been trying to say, but probably not geting the idea across correctly. Over time, to have the highest dps, it will come down to who uses the abilities the most, at the right order when they clash.
Out of curiousity, has anyone heard if Blizz are re-itemising the tier4/5/6 ret gear again? I have seen posts on mmo-champion that involved changing the Pally Protection sets to move more in line with the intended changes (dropping of Intellect in favor of more tanking stats), but I am not sure if that is happening at all now. So, has anyone heard anything about that at all?
Out of curiousity, has anyone heard if Blizz are re-itemising the tier4/5/6 ret gear again? I have seen posts on mmo-champion that involved changing the Pally Protection sets to move more in line with the intended changes (dropping of Intellect in favor of more tanking stats), but I am not sure if that is happening at all now. So, has anyone heard anything about that at all?
JoW does not scale - same proc regardless who judges. JoL scales - more AP/SP, better procs. At a glance it appears Ret will produce better JoL than Holy (coefficient for SP and AP are identical, we're going to have tons more AP than they have SP).
JoL heals are attributed to the Judger. Therefore if I judge Light, all healing done by JoL show as if I performed the heal. Based on other classes (Priest PoM and Shaman ES) this does appear to generate threat for the healer.
Curious - if the Ret drops JoL and there's heavy AOE damage which affects melee... how bad does the healing threat generated get?
I'd suspect negligable, as I haven't heard threat concerns regarding 80 runs so far, but I had heard some Spriest QQing that they potentially could be doing 750 HPS per person and the threat nighmares involved with that, so thought I'd ask.
Cerakona, the drastic changes to Prot's mechanics would have made tanking plate with spell power well-nigh-useless come 3.0, whereas the significantly less drastic changes to Ret's mechanics simply make the INT an arguably wasted stat.
Thanks Trakor... now why the hell haven't they updated the Ret gear with the changes, but done so for the Prot? It seems a little meh to me
Prot had a fundamental shift in mechanics (Strength is good, spell power is not as good but useful), while Ret had a very small change (int is bad, stack even more strength).
So dev time to remove int and add str was not worth it.
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Redcape, like I said before and Avitus tried to explain here, you dont use what hit the hardest 1st, because of CDs menagement. For examply, lets look at judgement > cs rotation, considering that 1.5secs GCD + 0.5 secs (latency + reaction time) means that there would be, on avg, 2 secs between each ability.
- CS strike cd is 6 secs
- Judgement cd (with talents) is 8 secs
Time Ability
0 Judgement
2 CS
8 Judgement and CS are up
8 Judgement
10 CS
16 Judgement and CS are up
16 Judgement
18 CS
As you can see, if you prioritise judgement over CS, cds will always clash, and you would always be delaying CS by 2 secs, which, over an entire fight, means you lose way more CS hits.
Now, if we prioritise CS > Judgement
Time Ability
0 CS
2 Judgement
6 CS
10 Judgement
12 CS
18 Crusader Strike and judgement are up
18 CS
20 Judgement
As you can see, with Judgement > CS, you basically turn CS into a 8 sec cd, losing 25% of its DPS. If you use CS > Judgement, you will delay judgement by 2 secs every 18 secs, rather than delaying CS by 2 secs every 6 secs.
You pretty much want to use your abilities on shorter cd first to avoid more clashes like these, which, in the long term, it will cost you a smaller dps loss.
You've got to stop your comparison at 18sec if you want to compare apples to apples. At 18sec in your first example you would get 3 judgements and 3 cs's. In your second example you would get 2 judgements and 4 cs's.
So even considering a .5 sec delay, 3 Judgements + 3 CS > 2 Judgements + 4 CS in terms of damage. And that damage difference gets bigger as time goes on. Now the libram you mention might change things, but getting that high end arena libram at lvl 80 is really far off time wise. I'm a lot more concerned currently with my guilds continued progression in Sunwell after 3.0 hits and before WotLK gets here. So I'm with the FCFS camp prioritzing your biggest damage abilities in case of a cd clash. Also in my case, I'll be using a Judgement glyph and will still be using the Libram of Avengement and together, that makes the case for prioritizing Judgement even bigger.
Keep in mind they also changed all Sunwell prot paladin itemization (non set epics) this way, where as Sunwell ret itemization didn't need changes as it's pretty much "standard warrior gear" with no int/regen/spelldamage, so it'll be perfect if you can get it.
The good news for people currently "farming T6 content but struggling with Sunwell" is that they recently announced (blue post somewhere) that all Sunwell mobs will receive a fairly major nerf in HP and melee damage output. Combined with the new 3.0 talents, I'd expect a large number of guilds that previously didn't to start clearing SW or getting at least deeper = You'll ditch the now subpar T6 for more suitable Sunwell gear.
T4/T5 people are probably screwed for that month depending on how much they nerf Sunwell to make it accessible even to them. Your best bet is probably to go for non-set DPS armor to replace the tier pieces (start gathering now).
So, to start off, this is my first post, so go easy on me. Here goes:
I made a spreadsheet to simulate the results of prioritizing Hammer of Wrath or Judgment, based on which one used first when their cooldowns collide. I put together two rotations, one using a priority of HoW > Judgement > DS > CS, another using Judgment > HoW > DS > CS. It’s a FCFS rotation, using the priorities only when abilities come off cooldown at the same time, OR when they come off cooldown before the last GCD used. Both rotation and ability counts are over 120 seconds. Consecration was only used when there was a full GCD without one of those abilities coming off cooldowns, and without the glyph that extends it to 10 seconds. I set up different rotations, two of each Judgement cooldown (7,8,9 seconds).
So, for the results. For more detailed information or to view the rotations, please download the spreadsheet from the link provided at the bottom of the post.
HoW-priority FCFS, 7 second Judgement: 5 Consecrates, 16 CS, 11 DS, 17 Judgement, 19 HoW
Judgement FCFS, 7 second Judgement: 5 Consecrates, 17 CS, 11 DS, 17 Judgement, 17 HoW
HoW-priority FCFS, 8 second Judgement: 10 Consecrates, 19 CS, 10 DS, 13 Judgement, 20 HoW
Judgement FCFS, 8 second Judgement: 9 Consecrates, 18 CS, 11 DS, 14 Judgement, 18 HoW
HoW-priority FCFS, 9 second Judgement: 8 Consecrates, 17 CS, 12 DS, 13 Judgement, 19 HoW
Judgement FCFS, 9 second Judgement: 10 Consecrates, 18 CS, 12 DS, 13 Judgement, 19 HoW
Then, I thought about what a rotation of HoW and Judgement might be like, with them fitting together similarly to Judgement and CS on Live right now. Here were the results:
HoW-Judgement Priority, 9 second Judgement: 10 Consecrates, 17 CS, 10 DS, 14 Judgement, 20 HoW
Ok, so having solid numbers for damage leads to the following damage totals:
HoW FCFS, 7 second Judgement: 384458.87
Judgement FCFS, 7 second Judgement: 378380.69
HoW FCFS, 8 second Judgement: 395510.44
Judgement FCFS, 8 second Judgement: 393514.47
HoW FCFS, 9 second Judgement: 380699.26
Judgement FCFS, 9 second Judgement: 405168.88
HoW-Judgement Cycle, 9 sec Judgement:402620.72
So, at least sub-35%, having Judgement prioritized on a 9-second cooldown and using FCFS seems to yield the highest damage, followed pretty closely by a HoW-Judgement cycle. I need to make a change based on ticks of Consecrate, rather than full Consecrates, due to some of the cycles having half or less of a Consecrate at the 120-second mark, but that wouldn't effect the highest-damage one, since it ended on a full consecrate. Also, the damage between FCFS and the HoW cycles is probably negligible, simply due to DS, Judgement, CS, and HoW all being used at the end of the cycle. However, what is obvious is that a shorter Judgement cooldown isn't helping your DPS at this point, and prioritizing HoW over Judgement will cost you some DPS.
HoW FCFS, 8 second Judgement: 395510.44 Judgement FCFS, 8 second Judgement: 393514.47
Thanks, this proves my "logic" point (the "HoW vs Judgement" priority argument).
That you yield better results with staggering Judgement all the way to 9 seconds is an interesting result achieved by manually mapping. I'm not sure if it's practically doable however (doing a priority on clash is fine, staggering to achieve an artificial "perfect" result while playing in realtime/lag is hard).
Wouldn't necessarily have to be done manually, would it? I know staggering Judgement cooldowns would be hard, but you can have a 9-second Judgement, either by putting 1 point into Imp. Judgement, or by putting no points in it and having the Naxx bonus. The question then becomes, does having an 8-second Judgement for the first 65% of the fight outweigh the benefits of having a 9-second Judgement for the last 35%? Which would require more mapping, which I just might try out after tonight's raid.
You've got to stop your comparison at 18sec if you want to compare apples to apples. At 18sec in your first example you would get 3 judgements and 3 cs's. In your second example you would get 2 judgements and 4 cs's.
No man, boss fights dont last 18 secs. I only showed a 20 secs cycle to prove that once CS and judgement were clashing, if you kept taking judgement over CS, they would keep clashing again and again every single time they were up, unless you delayed one of them even more for another ability that does even less dps, resulting in even more dps loss. After a minute, you would be swaping 3 CS for 1 judgmeent. With Cs > judgement, you would miss out on 1 judgement per minute, but the longer the fights goes on for, judgement > cs will cost you more and more CS over time.
10/07/08, 8:06 PM
