Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 236

Suicidal Zebra · 10/11/08, 8:58 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

Yea we shouldn't advocate that though. Rather stay as is than get more stuff and pay for it (through a nerf) later.

Here's an idea: Make Exorcism interrupt any mob type through a high level prot talent. Revert the changes to Imp HoJ.

There you go, HoJ being overpowered for Ret is more or less fixed, prot got an even better interrupt on a shorter cooldown.

I think I'd go with something like this:

Make Exorcism do full damage to demon/undead, 1 damage to all other targets. Voila, ranged pull. Retain a small school-lockout on HoJ but as you suggest return it to a 45sec talented cooldown (buff the Imp. HoJ talent some other way to compensate, maybe adding range?). Make Kings baseline/roll it into base mechanics and move BoSanc down to the 11pt talent. Add a new talent 'Interject' as the 21pt talent, causing Exorcism and Avengers Shield to have a small interrupt and silencing component (so Ret has to choose between it and DS, and making it an interesting talent for Holy in PvP). Get rid of the HoJ Glyph in its' current form.

All you'd have to do then is think of 5pts of cool for Tier 1. I'd probably stick Seal and RF Dispell immunity in here for 3 pts, or a stacking +Hit% buff for 5 pts (your successful melee/ranged attacks have a 20/40/60/80/100% chance to increase your chance to hit by 1%. Stacks up to 5 times, buff lasts 10 seconds) for instance. That said it's tough to think of good, well balanced and interesting tier 1 talents.

But I agree, fundamentally it needs to be balanced and not hit with the nerf bat later on. The crucial point is decoupling Prots' anti-caster mechanic from HoJ and making Exorcism a more generically useful spell, for which there are a huge number of approaches which hopefully don't suck quite so much as what I outline above

. I still think that the small silence component is a pretty neat idea for baseline HoJ, but emphasis should be on the small.

flyingtoastr · 10/11/08, 9:12 PM

IRL an exorcism can be preformed on a good person. It just "gets rid of the evil in them". So really they could just go with something like:

Exorcism
Rank 9
Deals 342 to 382 holy damage to the target and interrupts spell casting for 2 seconds. Does triple damage to Demon and Undead targets.

Ranged pull, decent off-nuke for holy (who, let's face it, needs anything to help with leveling), and gives Paladins a much needed ability for all three specs (offensive PvP threat for Holy, way to bring casters to melee range for prot, interrupt for Ret). It also fits with the flavor of what an Exorcism is--getting rid of the bad stuff (silencing).

Of course the glyph would have to be changed, but there are all sorts of fun things they could do there.

GSH · 10/11/08, 10:38 PM

I'm don't believe Paladins should have a baseline ranged pull. It's our major thematic weakness, and it needs to stay.

I've written a small simulator to test all the FCFS priorities. Could a couple of level 80 Ret paladins post their stats (AP, SP, Crit, Base Weapon DPS, Base Weapon Speed) for me?

HoW doesn't proc a Seal, correct?

Also, what's a good value for the damage reduction from armor for Crusader Strike? How's 30%?

Schadrak · 10/11/08, 10:51 PM

What's looking like the best PvE Alliance Ret spec come the patch Tuesday?

flyingtoastr · 10/11/08, 11:29 PM

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

There is no "alliance versus horde" specs anymore. Ret.

Hylo · 10/11/08, 11:32 PM

Originally Posted by GSH

Could a couple of level 80 Ret paladins post their stats (AP, SP, Crit, Weapon DPS, Weapon Speed) for me?

Unbuffed stats without retribution aura:

3133 AP
939 SP
29.68% crit (660 rating)
7.04% hit (231 rating)
4.0% expertise (135 rating)

Weapon: 1519 - 1841 damage, speed 3.30 = 509.1 dps

Avitus · 10/12/08, 12:24 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

IRL an exorcism can be preformed on a good person. It just "gets rid of the evil in them". So really they could just go with something like:

Exorcism
Rank 9
Deals 342 to 382 holy damage to the target and interrupts spell casting for 2 seconds. Does triple damage to Demon and Undead targets.

Ranged pull, decent off-nuke for holy (who, let's face it, needs anything to help with leveling), and gives Paladins a much needed ability for all three specs (offensive PvP threat for Holy, way to bring casters to melee range for prot, interrupt for Ret). It also fits with the flavor of what an Exorcism is--getting rid of the bad stuff (silencing).

Of course the glyph would have to be changed, but there are all sorts of fun things they could do there.

I think if Ret gets such a short cd interrupt it would be opening the whine floodgates, which is why I propose to make it a high level prot talent to modify the base exorcism, out of reach of Ret.

I wouldn't mind base exorcism being usable on non-undead for very low damage (even 1 damage) as a pull though. Would remove the one major annoyance when having to tank as Ret spec.

CaptBooyah · 10/12/08, 3:19 AM

Originally Posted by flyingtoastr

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

There is no "alliance versus horde" specs anymore. Ret.

I agree with this spec... altho one question would be "Why not improved retribution aura?", since that now auras will be raid wide and scale with spellpower.

Retaura is 62 per hit at level 66

If the spellpower coefficient is 6.6% for RetAura, then with 2500 AP you get 750 spellpower which equates to 49.5 extra damage to RetAura. Total RetAura before talents is 111-112.

Think Im just going to pop on the Test server now to play with it... stay tuned I guess

edit: Ok, after some quick testing...

My Gear Stats
1967 AP (with imp BoM up)
732 Spell Power
Expected Coefficient of RetAura is 48.312

Without imp ret aura
Tooltip - 62 dmg per strike
Combat - 112 - 113
Difference - 51

With imp ret aura
Tooltip - 93 dmg per strike
Combat - 144 - 145
Difference - 52

So I guess the coefficient is closer to 7% and the talent only gives a flat 31 dmg per strike increase. Altho I should've only gotten 590 spellpower from that much AP. Intellect? Meh, too lazy and too hot to do further testing.

My opinion is that imp RetAura is probably a good idea for a little extra dps if you don't mind dropping PoJ and probably quite awesome if you have a Protadin doing most of the tanking.

Sharlos · 10/12/08, 3:54 AM

Originally Posted by Avitus

I think if Ret gets such a short cd interrupt it would be opening the whine floodgates, which is why I propose to make it a high level prot talent to modify the base exorcism, out of reach of Ret.

I wouldn't mind base exorcism being usable on non-undead for very low damage (even 1 damage) as a pull though. Would remove the one major annoyance when having to tank as Ret spec.

Ret is the spec that actually needs an interrupt.

CaptBooyah · 10/12/08, 4:07 AM

Originally Posted by Sharlos

Ret is the spec that actually needs an interrupt.

Hammer, Repent and bubble not good enough? (and to horde, Arcane Torrent)

As cool as I think it would be, it would probably be just too powerful to string along with the rest of our abilities.

burghy · 10/12/08, 5:00 AM

Originally Posted by RangerSix

*deleted this part, it's getting late >_>*

Either way, I'll still need to find an omniCC that ticks every 0,5 sec instead of 1 sec I guess :o

A small hack for that. Edit full.lua:

@function OmniCC:UpdateTimer(timer)
change
    if floor(remain + 0.5) > 0 then
to
    if floor(remain + 1) > 0 then

@function OmniCC:GetFormattedTime(s)
change
    return floor(s + 0.5), s - floor(s)
to
    u = s - floor(s)
    if u > 0.5 then u = u - 0.5 end
    return floor(s * 10 + 0.5) / 10, u

RangerSix · 10/12/08, 6:40 AM

Whoa, thanks alot Burghy. :o

About the subject of an interrupt, Ret doesn't really need an extra interrupt in my oppinion. But, Prot does and I don't think that putting a talent deep into prot would be required. Just make it for example the new 11 point talent : an attack with your shield (and therefor requires a shield to be equipped), or with a one handed weapon, that deals no damage but interrupts spellcasting for 3sec and possibly for example add annother effect like "taunting" the target?

I'm not sure about the secondary effect though and the discussing would fit better in the protadin thread anyway.

Ruun · 10/12/08, 10:13 AM

Got another question:
will the libram from blood furnace heroic still be the best pve libram or shall i get myself a new one

thx 4 answer

Avitus · 10/12/08, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Ruun

Got another question:
will the libram from blood furnace heroic still be the best pve libram or shall i get myself a new one

thx 4 answer

At 70 or 80? At 70 it probably is yes.

At 80 there's a multitude of better librams, including a high level green copy of the blood furnace libram with slightly more crit rating. Most probably the +AP on CS librams will come out on top.

Ruun · 10/12/08, 11:09 AM

Originally Posted by Avitus

At 70 or 80? At 70 it probably is yes.

At 80 there's a multitude of better librams, including a high level green copy of the blood furnace libram with slightly more crit rating. Most probably the +AP on CS librams will come out on top.

i knew about the +ap librams on cs for 80 and that was clear 2 me.
was just wondering if theres a new better one 4 70.
so thx 4 the fast answer

• Zurm · 10/12/08, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

Zurm, maybe Rawr can answer this question. 10 Expertise > SoB DPS?

I can't say for certain because funny enough I can't actually RUN rawr on my machine (I've been relying on a friend to test it for me, the one who makes the healadin and tankadin models). However I doubt that's the case, and you'll be able to try it out for yourself in the near future.

Also, Avitus, if you want to double check my math you should do it sooner than later!

Avitus · 10/12/08, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Zurm

Also, Avitus, if you want to double check my math you should do it sooner than later!

Hush you! This whole patch mess is colliding with a really busy week for me, I'll get to it soon though

It's probably easiest if you send me code snippets if you want it fast. You've got PM btw.

Most of the "background theorycraft" for 3.0 is being bounced off everybody at the moment. FCFS system, priority sequence are pretty much resolved. Still trying to find a conclusive answer to SoB vs SoR + SotP and that should be the last of the unknowns and it's just math from that point on.

Redcape · 10/12/08, 12:39 PM

->Build<-

->Spreadsheet<-

This build using 3/5 SotP has convinced me that unless the mechanics of the last patch change I will be going with SoR. You get everything good and you get enough SotP to make SoR the best dps seal.

That said, the latest patch has all kinds of crazy changes and bugs, so who knows, it might be different when they get it sorted out.

CaptBooyah · 10/12/08, 1:15 PM

I spose it depends on how many paladins you raid with but I'd drop kings for the last two points in SotP (assuming its as hot as foretold) and sink the other points into imp BoM and SoC.

Easy enough to kick a holy pally to pick up kings or a protadin if they have points to spare (doubt it =])

GSH · 10/12/08, 1:41 PM

I wrote a simulator to test all the different priority schemes for Retribution. Here are my results, assuming Seal of Blood. Thanks to all the people who posted stats. There's not a lot of difference between the top few rotations.

FCFS - First-come, First-serve. Abilities are used as soon as they can be.
PRIORITY - If a better ability would come off-cooldown in 0.5s, delay and hit that ability first.

Without HoW:

Rank	Rotation	Percentage	Style
1.	["CS","JoB","DS"]	100.0	"FCFS"
2.	["JoB","CS","DS"]	99.98	"FCFS"
3.	["JoB","DS","CS"]	99.46	"FCFS"
4.	["DS","JoB","CS"]	99.43	"FCFS"
5.	["CS","DS","JoB"]	98.87	"FCFS"

With HoW:

Rank	Rotation	Percentage	Style
1.	["JoB","HoW","CS","DS"]	100.0	"FCFS"
2.	["JoB","CS","HoW","DS"]	99.99	"FCFS"
3.	["HoW","JoB","DS","CS"]	99.78	"FCFS"
4.	["HoW","JoB","CS","DS"]	99.78	"FCFS"
5.	["CS","HoW","JoB","DS"]	99.77	"PRIORITY"

Avitus · 10/12/08, 5:12 PM

Nice work GSH. I guess we can pretty conclusively say it won't matter too much unless you do something horrid like prioritize Consecration over Judgement. When all is said and done, FCFS is the system, the priority list is just a guideline for clashes.

Also is it possible to link the simulator?

Gaeryth · 10/12/08, 6:05 PM

Is there any news about the SoC (70 badge) libram? Will it change to "judgements while having Seal of Command active", or will it be broken, or will it be changed to all seals? And if the first alternative is true, does it change the equation of using SoC or SoB (since I've heard the differences are very small)?

Avitus · 10/12/08, 6:11 PM

Originally Posted by Gaeryth

Is there any news about the SoC (70 badge) libram? Will it change to "judgements while having Seal of Command active", or will it be broken, or will it be changed to all seals? And if the first alternative is true, does it change the equation of using SoC or SoB (since I've heard the differences are very small)?

No news at the moment, meaning [Libram of Avengement] is what you'll want to use for PvE that last month of TBC.

Quani · 10/12/08, 6:26 PM

A few quick questions to all the theorycrafters.

1. What will be the enchant of choice come 3.0? Mongoose or Savagery.

2. What hit rating will you strive to achieve, without compromising other stats and how?

3. What haste rating will you shoot for and what are some key pieces to help do that?

4. Will you be rotating JoL and JoW or just staying with one and let another pally get the other?

I personally had the [Hard Khorium Battlefists] made instead of the leather counterparts. I'm glad I did now. Would just like to get some insights on the plan or action some will take come patch.

I'm just excited that I wont be gimp anymore. My personal best on Brut was ~1840, but so many other bosses it is hard to sustain a decent DPS cycle without running OOM. We just started on KJ last week and I don't know how any Ret could sustain a respectable DPS throughput with the mana drain. I was chain chugging mana pots and dark runes and still sat there with my auto attack..

Ertai · 10/12/08, 6:37 PM

Personally for me KJ is a very fun fight.

True enough, at the start of the fight you might have some problems with mana but once the first dragon orb is up...it's smooth sailing.

The revitalize breath combined with the massive damage you take ensures you always have mana to spend. I basically chain pop haste pots in the KJ fight since i have no use for mana potions there, but always start popping em at 85 % in case im getting chain drained at the first percentages.

Best i did was 2080 DPS on KJ, ranked 5th that time.