Excuse the multi post, but due to readability I'm splitting this one. The following is the conclusion/summary of the previous (proof) post, for the TLDR crowd :

You'll mostly throw out STR/CRIT gems for pure HIT gems until capped. The rest will probably remain the same.

The main paradigm shift in WoW 2.x -> WoW 3.0 and beyond is that the hit/exp till capped are not any more the top stats, but are always under the value of STR and even AP. Socket bonuses complicate things some more, the following is a guide on socketing:


Socketing for WoW 3.0 (level 70):

Level 70 2h hit cap (without outside buffs) = 9% = 142 Hit Rating

1. Gem all red sockets with pure STR, regardless of hit cap.
2. Under hit cap: Gem all yellow sockets with pure HIT assuming a socket bonus with a DPS stat.
3. Once hit capped: Gem all yellow sockets with STR/CRIT (orange gems) assuming a socket bonus with a DPS stat, otherwise gem STR.

4. Gem the first 2 blue sockets with Purple STR/STAM for meta requirement, then if further blue sockets exist, gem pure STR.
5. If only 1 (or 0) blue socket exist, gem 1 (or 2) yellow socket with Green CRIT/STAM to achieve meta requirements.


Socketing for WotLK (level 80):

Level 80 2h hit cap (without outside buffs) = 9% = 295.1 Hit Rating

1. Gem all red sockets with pure STR, regardless of hit cap.
2. Under hit cap: Gem all yellow sockets with STR/HIT gems if the socket bonus is STR, AP, HIT or Expertise and all yellow sockets with pure STR gems if the socket bonus is CRIT, AGI, HASTE or non-dps stat.
3. Once hit capped: Gem all "single" yellow sockets with pure STR regardless of socket bonus, for dual sockets, read the note below.

4. Gem the first 1 blue sockets with Purple STR/STAM for meta requirement, then if further blue sockets exist, gem pure STR.
5. If 0 blue socket exist, gem 1 yellow socket with Green HIT/STAM (while under hit cap) or CRIT/STAM (once hit capped) to achieve meta requirements.


Note to no.3: With "2 socket bonus" it becomes an extreme case-by-case, where depending on socket bonus some benefit very slightly by using STR/CRIT in yellow sockets and some benefit very slightly by using pure STR regardless. As a general rule of thumb going pure STR is usually the best case after hit cap, though for obsessive optimizers calculation by hand or spreadsheet/Rawr should be used.


I've tried to have this "guide" as complete as possible in order to eliminate any possible questions Let me know if something is off. Obviously the usual disclaimer is that the accuracy of the above is based on the accuracy of the spreadsheet numbers. All assumptions are based on craftable gems only.

As an aside, there is a Str/Hit gem currently in the game:
Etched Fire Opal, heroic Shadow Lab.
+5Str, +4hit.

Which is even worse than the new str/hit gems coming out, but it does exist if you need to fill that Yellow Socket (And are under the hit-cap of course).

It's good to know that Hit is still something we'll be needing, so long as the socket bonus gained from it is Str or Hit.

As far as my spreadsheet goes:

I am exceedingly confident in its accuracy at this point. I have gone over every calculation over and over and everything seems perfect. However, there are 3 caveats:

1. I am imperfect, though it hurts to admit it. If you can find anything else that needs fixing, tell me. I think everything is perfect, but I am not a Flying Spaghetti Monster, so imperfection is still possible.

2. The current PTR push is crazy and buggy. I have not updated the sheet for this build because I wouldn't claim to know what stuff is real and what is a bug.

3. HoW still isn't included in my 'return on stat' calculations, nor is it listed in the total dps calculations. Its use should have zero impact on the choice of seal, but since it responds better to Str and worse to Hit/Crit than most of the other baseline abilities (Barring Consecration) I would expect it to actually push Str even further up relatively speaking.

Until I do real calculations for sub 35 rotations and dps with real latency calculated in I can't really integrate HoW entirely. I intend to publish a new version with HoW fully integrated and with all updates from the live version this week, as soon as I have full data for it.

I got two questions about items in 3.0:

1.Will Shard of Contempt + Berserkers Call be better than Shard + Dragonspine Trophy with 3.0 (also thinking of HoW and Consecration)?

2.Will the Bloodboil Ring be better than the Ring from Twins in 3.0?

Thank you.

I haven't run the calculations through, but would say most likely on both accounts. Atr/AP is getting a boost whilst Armor Pen and Haste are becoming less effective.

This is more or less my main concern. Until we know heads from tails with what is intended and what is not, there's always going to remain some element of uncertainty when trying to come up with general rule sets and guidelines.



1. I've been pondering the same thing and according to some quick Spreadsheet Fu it's showing Berserker's Call about ~6 DPS ahead of DST. This is not even accounting for AW and BC cooldown now being the same and netting even better results. I think it's safe to say this puts Shard + BC as the current top Ret trinket combo (possibly excluding a combo with the elusive Blackened Naaru Sliver).

2. No, I don't think so. It ends up ~25 AP (after multipliers) vs 2 crit rating and 161 ArmPen ("23 ArmPen Rating"). While Armor Pen is less lucrative now, 161 ArmPen is a significant amount. It's the same as the perception people used to have of Spelldamage on T6, even though it wasn't that great, it still added DPS due to sheer itemvalue compared to lower level items with no spelldamge.

Given current (pre-3.0) mechanics, 25 AP will only give about 7.9 DPS, 161 ArmPen in my gear will net me about 19 DPS.
Given 3.0 mechanics, 25 AP will increase in worth to give 14.35 DPS. Without calculating what "23 ArmPen Rating" will give in 3.0, it's safe to say even though ArmPen didn't get improvements in worth such as AP, I'm pretty sure it's not going to give less DPS than it did in pre-3.0 mechanics, meaning the Twins Ring remains on top (though with probably a much smaller margin now).

I was wondering about the same thing. Now with HoW actually being useful in pve, will it be worth it to drop sunwell items in favor of the 4 piece T6 bonus?
I'm thinking about using the T6 chest in addition to the sunwell T6 items (also because of the 21 hit rating), instead of [Warharness of Reckless Fury].

I doubt it. HoW will be at best 25% of your damage 1/3 of the time, so that set bonus is worth under 1% dps. It will break ties, but 24 dps isn't a lot.

You'll want to go for T6 boots next patch definitely, regardless of hit cap. This should solve your problem temporarily until you get a chest piece to replace T6.

At this point you'll want to do:


This would indicate T6 set bonus would actually be worth it assuming that it takes you 30% of the Total time to blast through the last 35% of Boss HP.

A different estimation with only 25% of the time spent on the last 35% of Boss HP for example (due to execute, HoW spam, fire mage thing and all other classes who have something that increases DPS at <35% plus saving Heroism), would make things start moving more in favor of SW itemization and away from saving T6 bonus. Also assuming nothing happens to you (having to move or death!) during the last 35%.


Overall conclusion: 4xT6 + rest SW or 3xT6 + rest SW is more or less the same +/- 10 DPS, it really doesn't matter Just equip the higher level items and be happy.\o/

Okay I've found a lot of useful stuff here for 3.0 so thank you guys!

But I'm still unclear on seals... every spreadsheet I can find shows that with my gear seal of right. is better than seal of blood or command... I'm using either lionheart, but switching to stormhearald on tuesday. Is seal of righteousness my correct seal choice?

I've read that for seal of blood to be better I need a better weapon, otherwise right now seal of righteousness wins out. Is that correct?

Even with better weapons I show seal of righteousness higher by quite a bit

Hmmm, I understand the idea behind gemming entierly for strength and the like, but can I just ask, has haste been devalued for ret at all? I'm currently raiding ZA and Mt.H as Ret in a casual guild, and Ive been debating whether or not to exchange the 1.36% crit for >3% haste would be considered an upgrade. With 3.0 talents that'd put me at about the 13% haste mark.
So, would you recommend sticking to my current Netherforce and regemming in all raw strength gems rather than swapping in the Ire with a strength gem?

For SoR to be better you need pretty high stats (working theory is somewhere at 4k+ AP as well as as well as 5/5 SotP, with a dynamic POI depending on some of your other stats), I really don't think this will apply at level 70.

Just use SoB.

It's fairly important to not be thrown off by the perception of "bad stats" resulting in ignoring them completely.

3% haste vs 1.36% crit (which is ~2.2 : 1), go for haste. As a stat Crit is much better but only at roughly (ballpark range) 1.48 haste : 1 crit, depending on gear.

For gems, follow my guide at the top

Another trinket possibly worth looking into might be Darkmoon Card: Crusade? That's 120 AP and 80 SP when fully stacked, and since we are scaling with both now, it might end up being quite good.

For the rings, I think i'm gonna go with Band of Eternal Champion and Hark Khorium Band. We havent been lucky with the ring from the twins. In regards to trinkets, shard + beserker. And for neck, I'm wondering if Shattered Sun Pendant of Might (Aldor proc) might be better than Clutch of Demise. I'm gonna wait on Rawr and make a decision then.

We also gotta reavaluate how good Blackened Naaru Sliver is going to be, since we now have more procs, strikes and faster auto attack (ret aura).

Fiddled with the new Rawr retribution module a bit. Some funny discoveries there (keeping in mind that this is based on my gear and with the module possibly not quite finished yet).

Torch of the Damned now pulls ahead of everything including Felspine, only Apolyon is better.
Razor-Scale Battlecloak from SSC is best before KJ, Vengeance Wrap a close second, Cloak of Fiends has fallen down quite a lot.
T5 chest beats T6 chest by a tiny bit, mostly due to better socket colors and socket bonus.
T6 gloves now pull ahead of S3 gloves, but are still inferior to S4 gloves. Gloves of Immortal Dusk are still king.
Red Belt of Battle with two 10 str gems is now best before T6 belt, if you discount the leather ones in between. Kaz'rogal belt is much reduced in value.
Legguards of Endless Rage are now clearly best before Sunwell, Lightbringer come close, and Greaves of the Bloodwarder from Solarian occupy a respectable third. Badge legs are down a lot.
Band of the Eternal Champion is now better than badge/ZA chest rings, Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring is better than Hard Khorium Band, and the Twins ring is in the top spot.
As mentioned here, Berserker's Call is now third best trinket after Naaru Sliver and Shard, DM:C is fourth, Shadowsong Panther figurine fifth, then Tsunami Talisman, then DST which is barely better than Bloodlust Brooch.

Also, if Rawr is to be believed, Chaotic Skyfire Diamond (now 3% crit damage and 12 crit rating) is better for us than RED.

Rawr v2.0.0 Released!

DOWNLOAD - Rawr - Release: Rawr 2.0.0

Welcome to Rawr 2.0.0. This brand new version of Rawr is designed for use with WoW 3.0,
for characters up to level 70. You'll find many new features at the core level of Rawr,
and many in some of the models. Some important things to note:
•We're not done. Many of the models haven't been updated yet for WoW 3.0
•We're going to be updating Rawr quite often for a while. To help you stay
updated with the latest changes, Rawr will now check for new available updates,
notify you if there's a newer version, and offer to open Rawr's website for you.

Here's a quick rundown of the status of each model:
•Rawr.Base: Still need to implement buffs for Glyphs, and fix bugs with many of the new features.
•Rawr.Bear: Threat calculations not done. Otherwise, mostly complete.
•Rawr.Cat: Not updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.DPSWarr: Not updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.Healadin: Mostly complete.
•Rawr.HolyPriest: Mostly complete.
•Rawr.Hunter: Partially updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.Mage: Mostly complete.
•Rawr.Moonkin: Partially updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.ProtWarr: Partially updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.RestoSham: Not updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.Retribution: Mostly complete.
•Rawr.Rogue: Not updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.Tankadin: Mostly complete.
•Rawr.Tree: Not updated for 3.0.
•Rawr.Warlock: Not updated for 3.0.

Retribution specific stuff:
•Model upgraded based on new talents and stats. Should be accurate, if you notice errors just let me know.
•"Temporary Buffs" in the Buff menu are NOT IMPLEMENTED. Please use the option panel for Bloodlust/Windfury.
•Hammer of Wrath is disabled... not implemented. Going to need some better numbers from you guys
•Talent comparison! See how much you get from each talent point.
•Seals proccing off CS, DS, and Judgements modeled (you should be noticing your seals doing a significant percentage of your dps now).
•Please note the model is for *LEVEL 70 CHARACTERS ONLY*. Model will be updated for level 80 closer to WOTLK release.
•Pertinent glyphs are implemented. Please keep in mind that due to the way Glyph of Crusader Strike works, it isn't practical in a raiding situation, however I included it for fun.
•Stat compare is still working. You will likely notice a shift in the value of stats (specifically a reduction in the power of haste for blood elves due to more powerful active abilities).
•Last I checked the parse for talents from the armory still doesn't work (because the armory wasn't updated). You will most likely have to input talents by hand.

If you have any questions/concerns/bugs, please feel free to post here or PM them to me.

Thanks! Still lots of reading to do before I get home tonight.

So I assume SoB is the main seal now? What Aura?

Retribution. You could figure that out by taking 3 seconds to look at your talents.

Yes, SoB seem's to be the main seal of choice now, and Retribution Aura is the DPS aura of choice now that it combines Retribution and Sanctity Aura

Download Rawr linked 2 posts back and it will answer every question.

Im surprised alot of my gear choices stayed the same...thank god i never vendored torch and zerkers call etc..

Thanks for the work on rawr zurm its got a few bugs (human expertise needs to be lowered to 3 and armor pen rating system missing) but other than that it looks good thanks!

I'll look into the racial expertise. I didn't do any work on librams (nor do I plan to ATM) since the level 70 librams will mean nothing in about 4 weeks. Also any item related problems are out of my control, the stats are given to me by the base code. I'll forward that to Astraylian though.

Yea, the racials seem to be off, and again the gear is out of my control. Oh, and you're very welcome.

Are we all feeling that:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Will be standard pending any changes that we can't forsee to the trees?