For the most part that spec looks very solid, one question did come to mind though.
Would it be worth taking 1 point (or 2) points out of righteous vengeance for pursuit of justice, and then using the new surefooted enchant? I can't answer that atm, but I'm leaning towards it as an option because my character doesn't have a lot of hit choices.
I'll be trading Imp BoM for PoJ due to the peculiarities of my raid in which I know that I'll have 2 other paladins who will have Kings and Imp BoM respectively, but if you're not in that comfy of a position then yes, that's the standard level 70 spec. I'm glad we can get a perfectly functional spec at level 70; many other specs are not in that position.
Will be standard pending any changes that we can't forsee to the trees?
Personally, I wouldn't let SoC go (at least for it to be used in fights where loosing life is not such a good idea - say RoS or Prince Malchezaar for instance), and I'm so in love with the pursuit of Justice that I can't live without it, even after its slight PvE nerf.
So I'm going to leave 3 points away from righteous vengeance, since to my understanding, it is a bit less interesting in terms of dps gain per talent point than pretty much all the other talents (maybe you can debate on imp. blessing of might, depending on the spec of your raid paladin friends...).
Oops, quite cross-posting with my quick-poster fellows hereabove.
As of right now, it's listing the torch of the damned as my best weapon. It's spanking my shivering felspine and is ranked even above Apolyon. Also, it's listing the badge libram over the libram of avengement. I don't see how either could possibly be accurate, but with all the changes to haste, who really knows? Does anyone have any idea if those are truly better or is it just something I screwed up when inputting gear/spec?
If you'll have a stable moonkin in your raid you can drop swift retribution. PoJ is a really nice talent and will be a larger DPS increase over 2 points in RV on any fight that has even a very small movement factor to it. PoJ looks like a no brainer to me, only question is where will you get the points for it which will depend on the rest of your raid. So it could be swift ret if you have a moonkin, imp BoM if someone else is picking it up, maybe even heart of crusader with a rogue or if all else fails looks like RV.
As of right now, it's listing the torch of the damned as my best weapon. It's spanking my shivering felspine and is ranked even above Apolyon. Also, it's listing the badge libram over the libram of avengement. I don't see how either could possibly be accurate, but with all the changes to haste, who really knows? Does anyone have any idea if those are truly better or is it just something I screwed up when inputting gear/spec?
The libram issue, as mentioned earlier, is a bug. Simply ignore it if you are using SoB. As for the torch being best, if someone can find an issue with my model then I'll gladly fix it. HOWEVER, keep in mind the value of stats is now going to be changed when considering the new mechanics and abilities. AP/Str and pure weapon damage has a much higher weight, and haste has gone down in value.
Edit: A torch should NOT be beating an apolyon. I will test this myself when I get home today... for now please make sure you are doing everything correctly, and make sure the apolyon is socketed.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
As of right now, it's listing the torch of the damned as my best weapon. It's spanking my shivering felspine and is ranked even above Apolyon. Also, it's listing the badge libram over the libram of avengement. I don't see how either could possibly be accurate, but with all the changes to haste, who really knows? Does anyone have any idea if those are truly better or is it just something I screwed up when inputting gear/spec?
With our strikes now proccing seals weapon speed just became massively more important. Seals are doing unnormalized damage, so a slow weapon is immensely better than fast. I don't know that Zurm's work is necessarily bug free, but I do know that weapon speed increased in importance by so much that I personally expected Torch to be the best weapon. Hell, if there was a 4.0 speed weapon from a t6 zone you might well be using it to raid in Ulduar, speed is that important.
Edit: One other thing to note is that I have really been expecting Savagery to be the equal of Mongoose for 70. According to Rawr it isn't, Mongoose is way better. My numbers at 80 would tend to favor Savagery, but it seems that the improved conversion rate of agility at 70 makes Mongoose the better enchant, so I would definately suggest it for 70 raiding, though at 80 I am fairly sure pure AP/Str enchants will dominate clearly.
That makes much more sense with regards to the sudden upgrade on the torch. Thanks for the input. I'll be using it tonight in Sunwell to test out the new dps.
As of right now, it's listing the torch of the damned as my best weapon. It's spanking my shivering felspine and is ranked even above Apolyon. Also, it's listing the badge libram over the libram of avengement. I don't see how either could possibly be accurate, but with all the changes to haste, who really knows? Does anyone have any idea if those are truly better or is it just something I screwed up when inputting gear/spec?
The Torch being king is to be expected, due to Seal and Judgement of Blood both using un-normalized weapon damage, which the Torch takes full advantage of as a 3.80 weapon.
The Badge Libram being better than the Avengement is a 'fluke' though - all Rawr knows is the average AP contribution you get from the projected uptime, it doesn't actually know that it only works with Seal of Command.
If it makes you guys feel any better, Avitus will be looking over the model in the near future, and possibly even taking over (I'll still be around to help him with the technical stuff, but since I'll be playing a DK in WOTLK I think it's only fair that your models come from someone who knows Ret well).
Originally Posted by Prinsesa
The Badge Libram being better than the Avengement is a 'fluke' though - all Rawr knows is the average AP contribution you get from the projected uptime, it doesn't actually know that it only works with Seal of Command.
This is exactly correct. Without getting into too much boring detail, there is a detachment between the item stats being parsed and the individual class modules. As such, I have no easy way of dealing with this. Fortunately, you guys are smart and can deal with it until I stop being lazy :P
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Edit: One other thing to note is that I have really been expecting Savagery to be the equal of Mongoose for 70. According to Rawr it isn't, Mongoose is way better. My numbers at 80 would tend to favor Savagery, but it seems that the improved conversion rate of agility at 70 makes Mongoose the better enchant, so I would definately suggest it for 70 raiding, though at 80 I am fairly sure pure AP/Str enchants will dominate clearly.
I'm a bit unsure about this. According to your spreadsheet, hit is much better than crit if you're not at the hit cap and I don't know if Rawr is taking it into account. It's currently giving me crit+str gems as the best, when I think pure str or pure hit would be better. I'll double check my info.
Originally Posted by Zurm
If it makes you guys feel any better, Avitus will be looking over the model in the near future, and possibly even taking over (I'll still be around to help him with the technical stuff, but since I'll be playing a DK in WOTLK I think it's only fair that your models come from someone who knows Ret well).
I'm a bit unsure about this. According to your spreadsheet, hit is much better than crit if you're not at the hit cap and I don't know if Rawr is taking it into account. It's currently giving me crit+str gems as the best, when I think pure str or pure hit would be better. I'll double check my info.
This USED to be the case. Due to new mechanics and tweaks, for almost every class it is no longer required to max hit and expertise before focusing on other stats. I can assure you Rawr is not lying in this regard, as I don't give it stat equivalences... it calculates it itself based on a comparison of DPS.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
This USED to be the case. Due to new mechanics and tweaks, for almost every class it is no longer required to max hit and expertise before focusing on other stats. I can assure you Rawr is not lying in this regard, as I don't give it stat equivalences... it calculates it itself based on a comparison of DPS.
Hmmm... well, for instance, it's showing a red belt of battle with 8str and 8crit gems at 113.47dps and the same belt with 8str and 8hit gems at 110.85. I'm also below the cap. I though Hit was always better than Crit if you're under the cap?
EDIT:
Originally Posted by Avitus
According to spreadsheet, it's still Hit > Crit, despite crit damage bonus talents, STR/HIT gems > STR/CRIT gems.
edit- where's the option for heroic presence in rawr 2.0 i can't find it.
Looks like another one of my racial slip ups. I swear I'm not a racist! :p
Hmmm... well, for instance, it's showing a red belt of battle with 8str and 8crit gems at 113.47dps and the same belt with 8str and 8hit gems at 110.85. I'm also below the cap. I though Hit was always better than Crit if you're under the cap?
I'm usually the first to admit I'm wrong, but at this point I'd say that Rawr is more accurate in this regard. Again though, I'll have Avitus check over my math in the near future, I'll be sure to point him to this.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Another trinket possibly worth looking into might be Darkmoon Card: Crusade? That's 120 AP and 80 SP when fully stacked, and since we are scaling with both now, it might end up being quite good.
Berserker's Call is giving better results.
Originally Posted by Trakor
And for neck, I'm wondering if Shattered Sun Pendant of Might (Aldor proc) might be better than Clutch of Demise. I'm gonna wait on Rawr and make a decision then.
We also gotta reavaluate how good Blackened Naaru Sliver is going to be, since we now have more procs, strikes and faster auto attack (ret aura).
Blackened Naaru Sliver is probably going to overtake everything else, though you shouldn't lose much by using Shard + BC, considering BC is going to be very very good if you macro it to be used every AW cd (both perfectly match now with 2 min cd and 20 second duration).
Originally Posted by Valerys
Unstoppable Aggressor's Ring is better than Hard Khorium Band, and the Twins ring is in the top spot.
...
Also, if Rawr is to be believed, Chaotic Skyfire Diamond (now 3% crit damage and 12 crit rating) is better for us than RED.
Spreadsheet is putting HKB about 0.5 DPS ahead of UAR in my gear. I'd say they're the same now more or less. A win for anyone who never crafted the SW ring.
...
Don't need Rawr to tell me that 12 crit rating > 12 agi. By a very tiny fraction however (0.5435% crit vs 0.5319% crit). Probably not worth the effort of replacing (and free dodge with agi!).
Originally Posted by Corronach
Would it be worth taking 1 point (or 2) points out of righteous vengeance for pursuit of justice, and then using the new surefooted enchant? I can't answer that atm, but I'm leaning towards it as an option because my character doesn't have a lot of hit choices.
DPS optimum? No (you'll want to take both full RightVeng as well as the new surefooted regardless of PoJ).
For comfort/"fun"? Maybe.
Originally Posted by Redcape
With our strikes now proccing seals weapon speed just became massively more important. Seals are doing unnormalized damage, so a slow weapon is immensely better than fast. I don't know that Zurm's work is necessarily bug free, but I do know that weapon speed increased in importance by so much that I personally expected Torch to be the best weapon.
I've been using a level 70 conversion of your spreadsheet and according to that, Apolyon would still be ahead by about ~60 DPS. Something is off somewhere.
Summary: Big headache incoming for the next month while we figure out all our spreadsheets and tools and iron out the differences. arg ;/
Looks like, if you don't have the KJ cloak, teron cloak, or the SSC cloak, then Vengeance Wrap is the cloak to use. Everyone else seeing this?
edit- where's the option for heroic presence in rawr 2.0 i can't find it.
Rawr is currently using 24 "Melee" Crit Rating for the crafted Cloak of Darkness. If you edit the item to use the generic Crit Rating it will shoot very high on the list of cloaks.
So none of the other pali's in my raid are taking Kings in the respec at 3.0. I'm considering dropping Divine Strength and taking full Kings instead. Ration is that I'll lose 5% of strength but the raid will get 10% of everything.
I've taken 2pts in PoJ and dropped 1 from RV. I'm toying going only 1 in PoJ and keeping RV topped off.
Rawr is currently using 24 "Melee" Crit Rating for the crafted Cloak of Darkness. If you edit the item to use the generic Crit Rating it will shoot very high on the list of cloaks.
you are the man, good call. are they updating the cloak in game or is the vengeance wrap going to be better?
Honestly, your Holy Paladins can and should take it. They can't reach the good Ret talents at level 70 while getting Beacon of Light, which they'll want to get since they also can't make a good hybrid build at 70. 51/5/5 is the most likely spec I can come up with. If you have a second Holy paladin, have him go 51/0/7+3 for Imp BoM. We absolutely need all of our points to make a good spec, and they simply don't yet.
Hmm, upon further consideration some Holy paladins might be looking at a 43/0/18 spec. It is workable, but Beacon seems actually powerful in a few Sunwell fights(amazing for twins and m'uru, usable in a few others). It will mostly depend on how much spamhealing and how much reactive and semi-reactive holy paladins are capable of getting by with with the downranking changes.
You of course need to get your raid kings, but I honestly believe Holy is the spec to do it with. No matter how you cut it though, you're losing 15% strength, not just 5%. You have to assume kings in a raiding environment, whether from you or someone else.
10/14/08, 1:24 PM
