Saltycracker

Felspine now loses to Torch of the Damned as well now =/ Killing ROS since Mardi Gras and never seen one drop.

I'm rolling with Judgement and Consecration. JoB is still a far better choice even compared against a glyphed SoC for PVE.

 

Supertech

Hi,
Seal of Blood or Seal of Command incl. Glyph of Seal of Command?
I'm not quite sure... this <>2.6 weapon speed discussion seems to be weird.

 

levk

This post from the warrior thread quantifies cat's swiftness against surefooted. Pre 3.0 surefooted wasn't even the best enchant for stationary fights, 12 agi was and you needed 5-10 seconds of running per 6 minute fight for 8% run speed to beat out 6 agi deficit.

Keep in mind that PoJ is twice the speed of the boot enchant and you can't intercept back like a warrior. Just making some broad and generous assumptions - if divine storm and judgment make up 40% of your damage and you have 40% crit - two points in RV are still worth less than 1% of your DPS. 1% of a 10 minute fight spent out of melee range is 6 seconds.

 

Nicolai

I thought SoC and SoB were within a couple of percentage points of each other? Has something about that changed in the last week or so?

I'm also not thrilled with the idea of teaching Alliance healers that they need to keep an eye on me when DPSing, especially if it's just for 1 or 2% more damage over a Glyphed Seal of Command.

SoC also serves PVP duty, so it'd be nice to use the glyph slot that way.

 

Dalm

Sorry in advance for the post length. I wrote a small simulator to compare DPS rotations over a longer period of time, I thought I would share some of the results here.

600 Second simulations. No latency simulated.
Using the DMG amounts previously posted in this thread (with the correction to the 8s/10s consecration incorporated).
If better numbers are available, please provide them.
"None used" is a count of .5 second increments in which the GCD was not active but no ability was used.

No HoW, 8s JoB, 8s Cons, Highest DPS 1st Priority:

Total DMG: 1388437.474
JoB used: 67
CS used: 94
Cons used: 67
DS used: 53
None used: 358

No HoW, 8s JoB, 8s Cons, Highest DMG 1st Priority:

Total DMG: 1393903.092
JoB used: 66
CS used: 93
Cons used: 66
DS used: 57
None used: 355


No HoW, 8s JoB, 10s Cons, Highest DPS 1st Priority:

Total DMG: 1415052.36
JoB used: 72
CS used: 90
Cons used: 54
DS used: 54
None used: 390


No HoW, 8s JoB, 10s Cons, Highest DMG 1st Priority:

Total DMG: 1430179.11
JoB used: 72
CS used: 85
Cons used: 57
DS used: 58
None used: 384


With HoW, 8s JoB, 8s Cons, Highest DPS 1st Priority:

Total DMG: 1830337.980
HoW used: 91
JoB used: 60
CS used: 90
Cons used: 60
DS used: 60
None used: 118

With HoW, 8s JoB, 8s Cons, Highest DMG 1st Priority:

Total DMG: 1831968.580
HoW used: 90
JoB used: 61
CS used: 90
Cons used: 60
DS used: 60
None used: 118


With HoW, 8s JoB, 10s Cons, Highest DPS 1st Priority:

Total DMG: 1883595.30
HoW used: 90
JoB used: 60
CS used: 90
Cons used: 60
DS used: 60
None used: 118

With HoW, 8s JoB, 10s Cons Highest DMG 1st Priority:

Total DMG: 1883274.82
HoW used: 91
JoB used: 61
CS used: 88
Cons used: 59
DS used: 60
None used: 125


From these simulations, it does not appear that a DPS Priority FCFS beats out a DMG Priority FCFS. Here is a 60 second sample of the No HoW, 8s, 10s, Highest DMG rotation:

 

Corronach

With the new art of war if you get to low you should be able to help yourself a bit before switching seals.

 

Saltycracker

The glyph adds ~3 Procs per Minute so it procs 10-11 times per minute compared to 17-18 times per minute seal proccing for SoB.

SoC may hit harder, but SoB is more reliable for PVE DPS, and it scales with haste which is getting thrown around like it is going out of style.

My rawr run today shows about a 250DPS difference between the two seals even with the glyph.

 

Redcape

Re: Dalm's post above. One thing these simulations underline is that the highest damage/highest dps debate all fits within 1%. What I mean by that is that the results of each set of assumptions fall within 1% of each other when the two priority systems are compared.

The reason this is important is that given the amount of data noise latency, player reaction and fight mechanics create 1% is a pretty tiny margin and suggests that it isn't a big deal which you go with. Also when you consider that various levels of latency will actually change these results it is hard to imagine a really firm answer either way.

Edit:

As far as SoC and SoB go, keep in mind that their mechanics have both recently been swapped around in the last patch, and some/all of it may be buggy. Until we have those bugs sorted out from Live data, drawing conclusions as to which is best is premature.

 

Foofu

Heals made instant through talents reset the swing timer. This has been true since WoW originally released and no-one has shown otherwise yet.

A 1% damage advantage to SoB could easily be ruined by even 1 or 2 poorly timed swing reset(s). In addition to the added danger of death you were obviously in to have emergency healed yourself.

However we can't assume anything about live because we have no idea yet which versions of seals actually went live today.

 

Janraea

I had the very definite impression that SoC scaled with haste now as well.. I'll go look for the posts.

Edit: Found it! http://elitistjerks.com/899750-post3618.html

 

Anauel

Everyone who's asking about SoC vs. SoB has to remember that SoB has been the dps seal of choice partly because of its superior dps, but also because the damage you caused yourself used to be vital; it gave you a good source of mana regen. This is not needed anymore with our permanent mana. If there's a difference of 1% (which, again can't be proved because numbers aren't final) then there's no need to put yourself in danger and strain your healers by using SoB. Don't get yourself caught in this mentality that you absolutely have to use SoB.

Also, an AoW'd FoL isn't the answer. It sucks in its current form for PvE. Don't use it unless it's a big emergency.

 

Rasputin

Actually SoB Spiritual Attunement regen was never very significant. It was a minor bonus on the order of ~20 mp5 if I remember correctly. The seal was used solely because it was the best DPS seal, and that's why I'll continue using it.

 

• frmorrison

Regarding Glyphs, last time I checked on beta the 3rd major slot was unlocked at 80.


So everyone will use the 10% judgement one and the 2nd would be Cons or perhaps SoC (if you want to use that over Blood).

Another issue to consider is with SoC there is a Libram that uses that Seal and with Blood only the Heroic BF Libram helps that one out.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Dantos

I believe at this point, there is no one almighty Seal to use. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but from reading this I would assume:

Seal of Blood - Seems to be the best DPS seal in general
Seal of Command - Good for fights where SoB is just too dangerous to use
Seal of Righteousness - Possibly good for AOE where you can take damage yourself, because SoB is dangerous and SoC has internal CD

Although, I still have a few questions...

1) Mainly, I'm still somewhat doubtful about Seal of Blood... From what I've heard, Judgement of Command does more damage, we don't need the mana regen from healing anymore, AND in my own tests on the PTR, it hasn't been doing more damage. On a single target, with the Seal of Command Glyph, I seem to be doing more DPS, if not virtually equal. It might be just me, but could someone perhaps "prove" that it's better? Think of it as me playing the devil's advocate.

2) I've heard a lot of back and forth. Has the Ret community come to a consensus regarding Seal of Righteousness / Vengeance and whether or not they are useful at all? It seems to be unavailable at Lvl 70 due to the lack of points (to go into 15% increased damage), but what about at Lvl 80?

3) I also saw a post about Sheath of Light being broken. Elaborate? Are spells not taking into account the spell damage it gives?

Thank you.

 

Janraea

SoB does very little damage to you. Well under the amount you'd heal from a JoL or iLotP. Certainly it won't 'strain your healers'. You'll probably get topped off by the splash healing from Holy light, or from CoH or Flourish anyway.

 

Redcape

Given the extreme unlikelihood that you can get SotP in a 70 raiding build I can't imagine SoR being as strong as SoB or SoC at 70. At 80 SoR currently is winning, but we will have all the mechanics of the Live version puzzled out long before 80 becomes a real possibility and we will have the answers posted here when that is so.

 

Anauel

20mp5? That's way too low. I know it varies from fight to fight but I'm getting at the very least 30mp5 out of Horde parses from BT up. There's some records of it being as high as 120mp5 in fights like Brutallus. That was definitely significant in 2.4, but we don't get much benefit from it now.

I don't think a 1% difference is enough to make it worthwile over SoC.

True, but my point is that it's really not needed. There's no reason to use it if it isn't the best DPS seal, and I just don't think a 1% difference makes it up for the damage you're causing to yourself. I guess I'm opinionated because I'm alliance and have never healed.

 

Janraea

You aren't giving up spiritual attunement. The high numbers you're throwing around are the amount from being healed from aoe damage, etc.

1% net dps is worth quite a bit, for zero cost in most cases. I want you to go find a typical fight parse, and figure out how much you were overhealed over the course of the fight from iLotP and JoL. That is the healing that you will now be getting.

Your healers will not be 'straining' to keep you up, or.. casting any heals on you that the rest of your group doesn't get. I recommend grabbing SoC if you have the spare points, for those very few fights where there's enough aoe that you aren't taking any overheal, but 1% dps is definitely worth it.


It *IS* the best dps seal. That's what we're trying to tell you.

 

• Avitus

Please try to read the past 2-3 pages, it's been heavily discussed.

With SoB (which is what matters) Apolyon is NOT losing to Torch of the Damned. In my gear + raid buffed it's about 60 DPS ahead according to spreadsheet and 30 DPS ahead according to Rawr 2.0.0. While the gap has shrunk, it's still a hefty increase.

I'm not sure how some people got conflicting results, but I'd advise they make sure they're calculating for SoB and raid buffs.


I'm assuming you meant this post since there is no #post928772 on page 61.

For the sake of the argument, if we go along with the broad/generous assumption you propose and it does really break even with the benefits of Surefooted if PoJ allows you to reach your target's melee range 6 seconds earlier (and get 6 seconds more DPS time), you would need to be running around non stop out of melee range for a total of 40 seconds in that fight (6/0.15 = 40) for PoJ to grant you that 6 second advantage.

I can't think of any fight where you would be running around after a mob this much. Don't get me wrong, I think PoJ is excellent and I'll try to have it in my spec, but I'm not going to LOSE dps talents for it, that's just counter intuitive.

Thanks for the confirmation, nice work

It does, but that's still not enough to overtake SoB. We've known this for years ("that when the day comes when SoC would scale with haste, it would still be under SoB") :P

 

Anauel

I understand that it is the better seal. I haven't said it isn't. I just don't see a 1% difference as quite a lot.

For instance, say you're doing 2500 dps (which isn't unreasonable). Assuming a 1% difference over a 10 minute fight is... 15k damage. This can be easily offset by a bit of RNG, and the fact that I don't know of an encounter that lasts 10 minutes of straight dps. In a 5 minute fight (such as Patchwerk) you get a 7.5k difference.

This is like arguing that FCFS DMG is better than FCFS DPS. It is, but chances are the damage is barely noticeable.

EDIT:
Redcape's right. We'll just have to see what live numbers bring.

 

Janraea

Well, yeah. It's not a big difference - there aren't many things that are. We theorycraft because we want to stack up all the little differences we can pry out of the mechanics into a big enough difference to out-awesome our guild-mates :-) From that point of view, 1% is a substantial change. I respect your preference for SoC, and I won't make fun of you for using it; I was just sticking to my guns that, from a theory-craft standpoint, SoB is better.

 

• Avitus

-Using SoB for "AoE" is never a problem and is never regarded as "dangerous", you should use it without worrying. SoB recoil never was an issue (it's insignificant as a "threat that can kill you"), it's all about JoB recoil. Seeing as you can't AoE JoR, you have nothing to worry about. Additionally our AoE move (Divine Storm) packs a heal that compensates.


2) It seems to be that despite 5/5 SotP, at least in level 70 itemization SoB is king. At the very most, SoR can break even.

3) Yes, some spells are not functioning correctly with damage from Sheath. Until things settle down (probably going to have to wait till WotLK live) some things are going to be uncertain, like for example how SoR + SotP is intended to be at 80.


According to Rawr 2.0.0, I'm getting around 250 DPS difference in favor of SoB at the ~3.5k DPS range (Saltycracker reports similar numbers). Spreadsheet doesn't model SoC, so we've always taken the "1% difference" as a throwaway comment without going into details.

If Rawr is correct and it really is ~250 DPS/3.5k DPS it would be around a 7% DPS difference which would be very significant.

 

Janraea

I'm not sure I'd regard rawr as authoritative at this point in the cycle. I believe most of the math it's using came from here.

A discrepancy that large seems likely to be a bug - perhaps it's not letting SoC proc on strikes?

 

Rasputin

I'm fairly sure that the 1% number being thrown around was pure math and didn't model the ICD on SoC. If that's the case, the DPS difference will grow to something far more significant as your swing timer overlaps with your Judgement, CS and DS quite often with a 1 second window(which is itself purely speculative as I don't believe anyone has tested the exact ICD on SoC).

JoB is the best DPS seal and will be useful and safe for most of the game. There are certain encounters where you won't want to use it, such as Loatheb and Thaddius-25(10 man doesn't buff your damage enough to make it truly dangerous) but for the most part JoB will be it. You have to remember that your HP pool will more than double from Sunwell to Naxx-10. 20k as a Naxx-10-geared Ret Paladin was completely reasonable with raid buffs, and towards the end of the time I was running Naxx I was up towards 22k. That's a lot of leeway with JoB and SoB recoil.

 

Redcape

Wrong.

I modeled it after I went to Blasted Lands and tested SoC proc rates during a full burn for 5 minutes with WF totem on and going as hard as possible on specials. 1% is simply the amount less you would get in total dps with real testing.

For all those using Rawr to decide on SoB: JoB is modeled as doing significantly more dps than JoC in Rawr. That is only true if the latest (buggy as hell, as previously stated) patch is the definitive version. In the last reasonably bug free patch JoC actually did more damage, rather than less. As such, any current uses of Rawr should be very careful to not use the JoB / JoC damage. That would account for most of the dps difference Avitus and others are seeing.