Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 241

Rasputin · 10/14/08, 8:12 PM

Well then, color me wrong. Did you by chance get a minimum ICD less than 1s in your testing?

Avitus · 10/14/08, 8:52 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

I'm not sure I'd regard rawr as authoritative at this point in the cycle. I believe most of the math it's using came from here.

I know that very well

The point is though at this stage we have two sources that model DPS. While keeping in mind certain oddities, the best course of action will be to work from both sides and slowly zero in on bugs.

Rawr is spitting out a 7% difference, "forum quote" is saying 1%. Knowing that something is off here is a given, knowing "what" is off is what we need to get at.

Originally Posted by Redcape

1% is simply the amount less you would get in total dps with real testing.

...

For all those using Rawr to decide on SoB: JoB is modeled as doing significantly more dps than JoC in Rawr. That is only true if the latest (buggy as hell, as previously stated) patch is the definitive version.

Two things:

-Are you sure that 1% is a constant regardless of conditions and significantly changing stats? I honestly doubt it. Unless modeled for variable stats, I think we should also take this 1% with a grain of salt. 1% or 3% would make a massive difference for example in how people perceive things and decide to play.

-"That is only true if the latest (buggy as hell, as previously stated) patch is the definitive version." we all agree that we really don't know which is which. Who's to say this is not what they're going to settle on? We'll know tomorrow (today) in 3.0 live.

Dbo · 10/14/08, 10:26 PM

Along with what Avitus said. Don't worry about taking damage from using SoB. Healers shouldn't be downranking anymore because of all ranks costing the same mana except the final rank costing LESS! So if they are competent then you will be alive.

Redcape · 10/14/08, 11:46 PM

As of right now Command is VASTLY superior to blood. For some reason Command is getting a big spell power bonus, to the point that Blood is doing 35% of Command damage. Also, the judgement on Blood is in fact lower than Command.

Of course the Command tooltip does not reflect this change.

Also SoR is bugged, it isn't getting full damage, like also a problem with spellpower not applying from Sheath.

In short, this build is bugged, and badly. Don't bother drawing long term conclusions from it. In the short term, use Command, it rules atm.

Pulout · 10/14/08, 11:58 PM

If command is in fact better than blood, does that mean that we should also use the badge libram? Has anyone been able to do the math on that since command will be used over blood now?

Dram · 10/15/08, 12:01 AM

If you are using Command the badge libram is the best one to use.

Dbo · 10/15/08, 12:35 AM

Well SoC might be sick but I was using Seal of Martyr on brut just now and did 3159 dps. Ret paladins be sick

Bruencairn · 10/15/08, 3:17 AM

-If Command is broken right now then use that, but assuming that it's fixed to being within 1% or even with Blood with the Command glyph I'll still be choosing blood in a heartbeat as it frees up a glyph spot. I think the nitpicking over "1% dmg" is silly when the raid dps gained from getting a glyph that improves BoM or BoK is much larger then 1% of your own dps. I realize that we are no longer considered a pure raid support class anymore but turning your back on upping raid dps for personal dps is just silly. I raid primarily as a healer and I would encourage any ret pally in my raid to use blood on any non-gimmik fight as the self dmg is negligible.

-Avitus could the difference in weapon DPS you're seeing be accounted by racials? If the weapons are close I think Torch would win out for dwarfs (yay expertise!).

-On a sidenote, holy pallys should grab kings for the time being. At 80 holy pallys will likely go 13ish into ret and can grab both imp might + imp wis and ret pallys can grab kings. But for the time being neither of us can do that and a holy pally grabbing kings is a no brainer.

Crysto · 10/15/08, 3:36 AM

So Rawr has been updated but strangely enough it seems to place 5str + 5crit over 10 hit, even when it doesn't affect your meta or socket bonuses in any way... Is this accurate, because unless the additional crit damage bonuses through talents are *that* good, I don't think I'm ready to believe.

Also, all Oceanic realms sadly just went offline for about 2hours, but has anyone compared SotM/Blood to SoCommand when using the Command Glyph? Is there some haste value where one outdoes the other or has SoC been reworked to utilise all the upcoming haste gear in the Xpac?

Bruencairn · 10/15/08, 3:45 AM

Originally Posted by Crysto

So Rawr has been updated but strangely enough it seems to place 5str + 5crit over 10 hit, even when it doesn't affect your meta or socket bonuses in any way... Is this accurate, because unless the additional crit damage bonuses through talents are *that* good, I don't think I'm ready to believe.

Also, all Oceanic realms sadly just went offline for about 2hours, but has anyone compared SotM/Blood to SoCommand when using the Command Glyph? Is there some haste value where one outdoes the other or has SoC been reworked to utilise all the upcoming haste gear in the Xpac?

The answer to your questions have been covered multiple times in the last 5 pages =/

Saltycracker · 10/15/08, 4:12 AM

@Zurm Re: Rawr

Is Rampage or Leader of the Pack modeled? I dont see an option for it.

Ravanor · 10/15/08, 7:26 AM

-edit- Sorry, forgot that spec-reviews aren't what EJ is for. It's just that with all the disccusions on mechanics, I'm missing summaries, conclusions, which then allow to build talent specs. My main is a priest so keeping up with that is no problem, but to do this for every class is a lot of work (hundreds of pages of EJ discussions :P).

Prinsesa · 10/15/08, 7:43 AM

Originally Posted by Ravanor

Oh how I wish there were more summaries of how the mechanics are changing for all the classes. It's hard to keep up with all the classes atm! That's why I'm hoping you guys could give a short review of this talent spec I've put together for my gf. She has rare ilvl 115ish gear, and quests mostly, does an occasional instance.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

I'm not quite sure I've grasped all of the important changes to retri, but this seems like a reasonable build at least. Because she doesn't raid or even do heroics very often, she's not expected to do top dps.

For any serious Ret DPS build:

* Divine Storm is mandatory as a huge source of DPS.
* Sheath of Light is mandatory as our only source of spell power, which most of our attacks still scale off of.
* Judgements of the Wise in mandatory as our source of mana. This one talent turns you from a mana-watching caster to an ability-spamming Warrior who is constantly pissed.
* Crusade is a mandatory talent as an excellent damage increase per point

* Benediction is REALLY recommended, since it reduces the mana cost of everything a Ret Paladin casts, save heals.
* Pursuit of Justice is REALLY recommended, since it reduces the time walking to mobs, which is itself a DPS increase
* Sanctified Wrath is REALLY recommended, since it's a 33% increase in Avenging Wrath's damage increase, as well as synchronizing with your DPS trinkets, although skipping on this is understandable with the current 61 point spread.

* Improved Retribution Aura is not very useful, since you'll drop most mobs before the reflected damage ramps up to anything meaningful.
* Deflection and Anticipation are not very useful, since Sheath of Light-boosted heals are more than enough to take care of your injuries, while Art of War keeps you mobile during those heals.

Ravanor · 10/15/08, 7:55 AM

-edit-

altair4 · 10/15/08, 8:18 AM

What professions would you recommend to get for most damage? Got engineering/enchanting now, but engineering at least gotta go cause I'm so tired of goggles.

Considering BS for 2 extra sockets and maybe LW for the 116AP bracer thing. Which you think are gonna be best for dps or too early to say since might show up some new stuff for Wotlk? Dont know how good the use/proc things some other professions got or if an extra glyph will make a big difference?

Kris · 10/15/08, 9:01 AM

BS + enchanting. LW-ing provides slightly better DPS with the bracer patch, but once BOP craftables enter the game BS should pull ahead.

• Zurm · 10/15/08, 9:29 AM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

@Zurm Re: Rawr

Is Rampage or Leader of the Pack modeled? I dont see an option for it.

LOTP should be in the buff panel, and I don't think Rampage is. Those are things I'll have to yell at astralyian for.

Also, I don't see any major issues with Rawr atm, everything seem somewhat accurate?

Redcape · 10/15/08, 9:48 AM

Originally Posted by Bruencairn

-If Command is broken right now then use that, but assuming that it's fixed to being within 1% or even with Blood with the Command glyph I'll still be choosing blood in a heartbeat as it frees up a glyph spot. I think the nitpicking over "1% dmg" is silly when the raid dps gained from getting a glyph that improves BoM or BoK is much larger then 1% of your own dps.

The BoM and BoK glyphs are long gone. Glyphs that buff raid buffs are a terrible idea, good riddance. The only Glyphs a ret paladin needs for his raid dps are: Judgement, Consecration, Command(Dependant on using Command, obv).

At 70 there is an argument that SoB + Consecrate Glyph is better than SoC + SoC Glyph, but that can't hold true until the current build gets fixed.

Valerys · 10/15/08, 10:01 AM

I'm trying to find a place for SoC in my level 70 talent spec today. Where to drop that 1 point? Righteous Vengeance? Dropping raid buff talents isn't an option for me.

• Zurm · 10/15/08, 10:16 AM

I dropped fanatisism, but in retrospect that may have been a poor choice. Fortuantely, Rawr 2.0 has a talent comparison, so you can see which talents give you the least DPS per talent point. I think it was actually the 45 pt talent (name escapes me, added crit damage on two abilities) that was the least DPS gained per point last I looked.

Nicolai · 10/15/08, 10:37 AM

I dropped a point from Divine Strength. It leaves me at 12%, but I wasn't sure where else to pull it from. RV may be a better choice.

Rasputin · 10/15/08, 10:44 AM

RV is almost certainly the best choice. Everyone has been complaining since it was implemented about what a minimal DPS it is for 5 full points. It only affects 2 abilities which are each on 8 and 10s CDs and it only affects their critical damage bonus. It's a miniscule effect to drop one point.

Kris · 10/15/08, 10:51 AM

Something's been bothering me:
Glyph of Consecration (Req. lvl. 20) - Increases the duration and cooldown of Consecration by 2 sec.
If it does the same damage, only over a longer period, how does that increase the dps? Unless the tooltop is wrong, in a way it doesn't state damage per tick stays as it was. Any input on the matter?

• Zurm · 10/15/08, 11:14 AM

That's useful because as a ret pally you pretty much never use consecration every 8 seconds. You might say... every 12 or so. Hence, for every cast, you get like 25% more damage out of it. Its usefulness is dependent entirely on how much you use consecration however, and that's up to each individual ret pally.

Blutelf · 10/15/08, 11:16 AM

I just upgraded to Rawr 2.0.1 and I seem to encounter Libram problems. Here's how to reproduce:

- start a new character, paladin, or alternatively load up a character file saved with 2.0.1 or 16.1, does not matter.

- choose Ret module : there are no librams available either in the optimizer or in the gearing window

- choose Holy module : only the Libram of Absolute Truth is available

- choose Tank module : only the Libram of Repentance is available

- when loading an existing character the libram will be in the equipment window, but not in the optimizer

Are librams disabled in this version?

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Kris

Glyph of Consecration (Req. lvl. 20) - Increases the duration and cooldown of Consecration by 2 sec.

I am not sure, but I think the damage is raised accordingly. There was a similar case with the talent Imp SW:P long ago.