Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 243

Usernaem · 10/15/08, 5:55 PM

==============================
ABILITIES W/ COOLDOWNS
==============================
Crusader Strike - 6 seconds
Divine Storm - 10 Seconds
Judgement - 8, 9 or 10 seconds (we'll be using 9 seconds for this simulation)
Consecration - 8 seconds
Global - 1.5 seconds

0s - Judgement (9s - OCD 9s)
1s500ms - CS (6s - OCD 7s500ms)
3s - DS (10s - OCD 13s)
4s500ms - CON (8s - OCD 12s500ms)
6s - FREE
7s500ms - CS (6s - OCD 13s500ms)
9s - Judgement (9s - OCD 18s)
10s500ms - FREE
12s - FREE
13s500ms - CS (6s - OCD 19s500ms)
15s - DS (10s - OCD 25s)
16s500ms - CON (8s - OCD 24s500ms)
18s - Judgement (9s - OCD 27s)
19s500ms - CS (6s - OCD 25s500ms)
21s - FREE
22s500ms - FREE
24s - FREE
25s500ms - CS (6s - OCD 31s500ms)
27s - Judgement (9s - OCD 36s)
28s500ms - DS (10s - OCD 38s500ms)
30s - CON (8s - OCD 38s)
31s500ms - CS (6s - OCD 37s500ms)
33s - FREE
34s500ms - FREE
* 36s - Judgement (9s - OCD 45s)
* 37s500ms - CS (6s - OCD 43s)
* 39s - DS (10s - OCD 49s)
* 40s500ms - CON (8s - OCD 12s500ms)

Counts:
CS - 6
DS - 3
Judgement - 4
CON - 3

The asterik (*) next to the rotation calls indicates that the rotation starts over again
from the beginning. "OCD" stands for Off Cooldown, "s" stands for seconds, "ms" stands for
milliseconds, "CS" stands for Crusader Strike, "DS" stands for Divine Storm, "CON" stands
for Consecration.

NOTES: From the initial judgement, you gain 34 seconds and 500 milliseconds of actual DPS
time. Do not take this calculation as a "set in stone" method of DPSing, I'm just going by
the numbers. However, in order to not mess up your rotation, you have to be aware of the
global cooldown at all times during the "FREE" periods of the rotation.

EXAMPLE:
At 6 seconds you can use 1 ability (instant cast). At 10 seconds and 500 milliseconds you
can use 2 abilities that are instant cast (alternatively you can cast a Flash of Light and 1
instant cast ability) and so on and so forth.

Originally Posted by Janraea

That makes no sense. Blood and command scale with haste at the same rate, unless there's an internal cd on command, in which case blood scales better with haste.

Ok, yes I know this. Sorry should of clarified about Command's proc CD beforehand.

Redcape · 10/15/08, 6:14 PM

Originally Posted by Usernaem

You posted this yesterday but nothing has changed from today. I ran the numbers for both Command and Blood. Command is superior if you have a lot of haste to stack it with (since Command seems to be scaling with haste now). Otherwise Blood is better. As far as judgements go, Blood still dominates Command by a pretty good amount so I don't see where you're getting this "Blood is in fact lower than Command" when referring to the judgement portion of the rotation.

EDIT: Judgement of Blood seems to out-perform Judgement of Command by 4% but Seal of Command and Seal of Blood are only a marginal 1% depending on the amount of haste you have to scale it with.

Some basic things you need to know:

1. Haste affects Command and Blood virtually identically. If anything Command gets less return because of the ICD, it NEVER gets more.

2. Runnings numbers mean jack and squat if your assumptions are wrong. Log in and hit people with Command and Blood. You will notice command doing nearly triple the damage of Blood with a normal Ret spec and decent gear. Then check proc rates in game. Ta daaa! Command is better. The current tooltips and Rawr models are not the same as what is in the game.

3. Again, I refer you to the game, not Rawr. In the game, Command does more damage when judged, does not cost you health and has a better libram. Stop theorycrafting and start testing, my post was based on actual live test data, not guesses.

Usernaem · 10/15/08, 6:21 PM

Originally Posted by Redcape

Some basic things you need to know:

1. Haste affects Command and Blood virtually identically. If anything Command gets less return because of the ICD, it NEVER gets more.

2. Runnings numbers mean jack and squat if your assumptions are wrong. Log in and hit people with Command and Blood. You will notice command doing nearly triple the damage of Blood with a normal Ret spec and decent gear. Then check proc rates in game. Ta daaa! Command is better. The current tooltips and Rawr models are not the same as what is in the game.

3. Again, I refer you to the game, not Rawr. In the game, Command does more damage when judged, does not cost you health and has a better libram. Stop theorycrafting and start testing, my post was based on actual live test data, not guesses.

Some basic things you need to know:

1. I know this, which is why I said I should of clarified about the ICD to begin with. But let's not read any posts following my original, sounds like a fantastic plan.

2. By running numbers, part of that was testing in game. I fail to see how it's tripling the damage of Blood.

3. Command doing more damage than Blood when judged? Not what I'm seeing.

Grigorim · 10/15/08, 6:28 PM

Redcape,

According to tooltips Judgement of the Martyr is bugged and only doing 25% weapon damage + scaling, whereas Blood is properly doing 45%. So you might want to stop talking down to Belf Paladins who obviously are seeing different numbers.

Anauel · 10/15/08, 6:37 PM

Originally Posted by Grigorim

Redcape,

According to tooltips Judgement of the Martyr is bugged and only doing 25% weapon damage + scaling, whereas Blood is properly doing 45%. So you might want to stop talking down to Belf Paladins who obviously are seeing different numbers.

Seal of the Martyr is fine. The judgement is what's bugged. Seal of the Martyr and Seal of Blood

EDIT: Which is exactly what you said. Misread your post! Sorry!

I'm amazed that this could get by the devs. It's not something that should be taken lightly.

Milou · 10/15/08, 6:51 PM

From what I've been testing Judgement of Blood does more damage than Judgement of Command, though not by much. But the damage of Seal of Command is more than twice Seal of Blood, it's as if SoB was doing 25-30% weapon damage. Overall both seem to do about the same dps, maybe a bit more on SoC since I use the better libram...Seal of Casino is more fun for sure though ;-)

Grigorim · 10/15/08, 7:02 PM

That should be correct, Milou, and is about what I have seen with regards to seal damage. SoB does 28% weapon damage every hit, whereas SoC does 56% weapon damage on proc. The overall numbers seem fairly close, although I will admit to preferring SoB in PvE predominantly for style.

Milou · 10/15/08, 7:13 PM

Hmmm...see I'm seeing maybe 1.25x more damage from SoC than SoB, but smaller judgements. I feel like I'm doing more with Command because of the huge burst, and I'm easily amused so I'll probably be using that until it's "fixed" but I do agree that a talented seal should be the best ret seal pvp/pve.

Blackwater · 10/15/08, 7:42 PM

Can someone please make a sticky for us non elitistjerks out there ? I was reading through the posts and since 3.0 came out, I would like some clarification, if possible. I was reading this post:

"Strict higher DPS priority would be: HoW > JoB > CS > Cons > DS (as compared to a
strict higher damage priority would be: JoB > HoW > DS > Cons > CS)"

Specifically:

HoW = no idea
JoB = Judgement of Blood ? (for alliance would this be Judging Seal of the Martyr ?)
CS = Crusader Strike
Cons = Consecration
DS = Divine Storm

What really would be nice is a lexicon of the new abbrivations.

flyingtoastr · 10/15/08, 8:01 PM

HoW = Hammer of Wrath

We agreed a long time ago that to avoid confusion both Blood and Martyr will still go by SoB/JoB while Vengeance and Corruption still go by SoV/JoV.

Blackwater · 10/15/08, 8:18 PM

Thank you !

Carac · 10/15/08, 9:00 PM

Hello all, my first time posting here.

Something I would like clarification on:

Avitus, are you saying that Shard of Contempt + Berzerker's Call will always be better than using Darkmoon Card: Crusade regardless of other expertise?

Also looks like I'll be going back to my ToD from Felspine due to what I've been reading here.

Edited.

Rasputin · 10/16/08, 12:47 AM

Well, the first nerfs are in. DS is doing physical damage.

edit: I did wonder why I could cast it while silenced when we were zerging MC. I guess it counts as a physical strike like CS now instead of a spell.

Skunkymunk · 10/16/08, 1:16 AM

So we did Brutallus tonight, and I am newly allowed as ret, however, i only managed to pull 2200 dps, using SoB and the highest dps FCFS rotation. I had WF totem ofc, and feral druid LotP, as well the only haste pot I could pop in conjunction with my Wings, however, my gear isn't too bad and I do not understand why I was so low compared to the reported DPS of other ret pallies on live on Brutallus. Could anyone help? Thanks.

-Edit- Btw, I know I have DM:C which is very, very sub par, and Adal's command, but I do not think that would account for a 1k dps difference.

Avitus · 10/16/08, 4:14 AM

Originally Posted by Carac

Avitus, are you saying that Shard of Contempt + Berzerker's Call will always be better than using Darkmoon Card: Crusade regardless of other expertise?

Yes, this seems to be the general case, unless you're using some non-standard additional expertise item. We're assuming 3xT6 (+optional racial) is your only other expertise sources.

Obviously as a dwarf wielding a mace (+5 expertise) or a Human with a Sword/Mace (+3 expertise) the value is reduced somewhat, however not enough for DC:C to overtake Shard.

Originally Posted by Rasputin

Well, the first nerfs are in. DS is doing physical damage.

This was a bug for a while on beta. Unless it's somehow confirmed by blue, I'm assuming (and hoping) this is a bug.

Originally Posted by Skunkymunk

So we did Brutallus tonight, and I am newly allowed as ret, however, i only managed to pull 2200 dps, using SoB and the highest dps FCFS rotation. I had WF totem ofc, and feral druid LotP, as well the only haste pot I could pop in conjunction with my Wings, however, my gear isn't too bad and I do not understand why I was so low compared to the reported DPS of other ret pallies on live on Brutallus. Could anyone help? Thanks.

Without knowing more about your buffs/debuffs and a WWS breakdown it's impossible to say. How tight were your rotations?

Crysto · 10/16/08, 6:00 AM

I can't see the new Armor Pen rating on any Rawr items, is it taking this new stat into account?

DpsadinEU · 10/16/08, 6:17 AM

Not sure if anyone noticed and posted here, proc from madness of the betrayer has 100% uptime atm, it procs from every judgement.

Nicki · 10/16/08, 6:34 AM

Did i miss something I swear by 99% that Seal of command does not proc off judgement while SoB does?

Mountie · 10/16/08, 7:15 AM

Originally Posted by Avitus

This was a bug for a while on beta. Unless it's somehow confirmed by blue, I'm assuming (and hoping) this is a bug.

Seems to have been applied as a hotfix, I don't see any blue confirmation anywhere, so cautiously pessimistic might be the way to look at it. It would be a shame though. Arms warrior bladestorm is off the charts awesome as well but you don't see any nerf bladestorm threads around; people are strange.

After a full night of raiding and pvp, Ret really feels like it's where it should be. You get blown up if you play dumb or make a mistake, and you blow up people who screw up or stand still(hunters that just stand still while you run up to them without even dropping a trap...that's not a spec issue). I only hit around 3k dps on brut, far from the top guys I'm sure, but good enough to be 3rd in the raid(lots of goofy specs tonight), but 15% behind our top rogue. Certainly I could do better to narrow the gap...which is encouraging. Were not so far behind that we know we can't catch up.

I'm really loving hammer of wrath as well, I managed a 32,001 crit tonight on the weak to holy pack before Muru and laughed so hard at the nerf Ret jokes from the guildies afterwards. It's so fun to feel like you're a top contributor and not just there because you do ok dps and know not to stand in fire. After pushing the bubble(har har) for so long to just get average it feels awesome to play hard to get into the top 3, but not have bust your balls for a top 10 finish. The sheer number of abilities and options makes managing dps order a lot more interactive, it's rare when you're searching for a button to push, seems like there's always something to hit; and when there isn't you can re-seal and not worry about going oom! Fantastic.

Lastly, Judgement of Light is just unbelievable. I managed to be the 6th place healer tonight between JoL and DS. It just blew my mind how awesome that ability is. It's such a far cry from "ya whatever, just throw it up if you get a chance" to "ok, JoL for sure on Felmyst, it'll buy the melee healers time to dispel any gas nova resists before needing to CoH" such a perfect ability I hope it's not bugged or going to get nerfed. You can't rely on it to solve all your melee healing woes, but it's impact is significant and felt; perfect utility ability.

Still riding the high, man this is a fun class to play now.

Dbo · 10/16/08, 8:32 AM

Originally Posted by Skunkymunk

So we did Brutallus tonight, and I am newly allowed as ret, however, i only managed to pull 2200 dps, using SoB and the highest dps FCFS rotation. I had WF totem ofc, and feral druid LotP, as well the only haste pot I could pop in conjunction with my Wings, however, my gear isn't too bad and I do not understand why I was so low compared to the reported DPS of other ret pallies on live on Brutallus. Could anyone help? Thanks.

-Edit- Btw, I know I have DM:C which is very, very sub par, and Adal's command, but I do not think that would account for a 1k dps difference.

Hey man did you try to do a dps rotation or spam the one butten GOD MODE macro? I wanted to try the one butten GOD MODE macro during our Sun Well raid and I did. The results were amazing dps. However we are boring now and just spam one butten besides exorcism and wrath at 35%. Get that macro if you don't have it. Here it is:

/castsequence reset=combat Judgement of Light,Crusader Strike,Divine Storm,Consecration,Crusader Strike,Judgement of Light,Divine Storm,Crusader Strike,Judgement of Light,Consecration,Crusader Strike,Divine Storm,Judgement of Light,Crusader Strike

Basically I made three of these for my raid. The one above is for using Judgement of light. I replaces the judement of light in that macro and put in Judgement of wisdom for if i do that. Then a made a final one where I took out Divine Storm and consecrate for when I do trash and there are sheeps.

I really hope this helps your dps. My gear is really good and this could be the cause for my really high brut dps though.

Here is a post of my brut dps this last week by the way.

http://wmo.ngacn.cc/combat/600213

Also what glyphs are you using? I am using the 10% increase damage on Judgements and the 2 secs more of consecrate.

Another thing. My dps on brut was acquired by using demonslaying and haste pots. Always make sure you pop avenging wrath, trinket, haste pot at the start of the brut fight once you have Vengeance stacked to 3. This will allow you to get 2 of these combo's off during the fight with the second one during heroism towards the end. I found poping hand of salvation on myself during the first avenging wrath combo to be very helpful.

CaptBooyah · 10/16/08, 8:36 AM

I've got a nagging feeling that recount isn't ignoring overheal on JoL

Mountie · 10/16/08, 9:05 AM

I really hope that one button cast sequences aren't the future of the class.

Originally Posted by CaptBooyah

I've got a nagging feeling that recount isn't ignoring overheal on JoL

That makes a crazy kind of sense. At least for Twins and Felmyst though, the 500/swing JoL is covering a large portion of the splash damage that melee takes in. On Muru P2 as well it seemed like Holy Lights Splashing with JoL really fortified the melees hp so as a group they're just more resilent.

• Zurm · 10/16/08, 9:07 AM

Originally Posted by Crysto

I can't see the new Armor Pen rating on any Rawr items, is it taking this new stat into account?

Get the newest version. You should be on version 2.0.1, NOT 2.0.0... Rawr currently auto-detects your version and *should* prompt you to auto-update.

Also, after raiding what can only be described now as LOLwell, I was fairly consistently 4th on healing meters with JoL. I was always beating shadow priests, and some fights I broke 2k healing per second. Also, for those of you who haven't experienced the joke that Sunwell Plateau now is, just think a 2 minute M'uru kill. Or a 3 minute brutallus. I didn't use the OP macro but even in my 4+ month old gear I was easily breaking 2.5k dps on most fights, and almost hit 3k on KJ. Since my rawr numbers showed me at 3.2k on a boss like brutallus, I think I'll look it over a second time. I know alliance can't give me good numbers on SoB yet, but I'll hopefully be able to iron out some details.

Dbo · 10/16/08, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by Mountie

I really hope that one button cast sequences aren't the future of the class.

That makes a crazy kind of sense. At least for Twins and Felmyst though, the 500/swing JoL is covering a large portion of the splash damage that melee takes in. On Muru P2 as well it seemed like Holy Lights Splashing with JoL really fortified the melees hp so as a group they're just more resilent.

Me too man, I didn't create my character to be a destro lock. I like the high number but it was more fun before.

Yes I guarentee recount is ignoring overheal because on Kil Jaeden the other night (Which I might add was a joke and is no longer fun) I was number one on healing with 24% of the healing done.

BTW. ZURM, you did your numbers with SoC? Yeah I really must of screwed myself trying to mess around with SoB. I'm crying now about the numbers I should have had

. Haha

Skunkymunk · 10/16/08, 9:59 AM

Originally Posted by Dbo

Hey man did you try to do a dps rotation or spam the one butten GOD MODE macro? I wanted to try the one butten GOD MODE macro during our Sun Well raid and I did. The results were amazing dps. However we are boring now and just spam one butten besides exorcism and wrath at 35%. Get that macro if you don't have it. Here it is:

/castsequence reset=combat Judgement of Light,Crusader Strike,Divine Storm,Consecration,Crusader Strike,Judgement of Light,Divine Storm,Crusader Strike,Judgement of Light,Consecration,Crusader Strike,Divine Storm,Judgement of Light,Crusader Strike

Basically I made three of these for my raid. The one above is for using Judgement of light. I replaces the judement of light in that macro and put in Judgement of wisdom for if i do that. Then a made a final one where I took out Divine Storm and consecrate for when I do trash and there are sheeps.

I really hope this helps your dps. My gear is really good and this could be the cause for my really high brut dps though.

Here is a post of my brut dps this last week by the way.

http://wmo.ngacn.cc/combat/600213

Also what glyphs are you using? I am using the 10% increase damage on Judgements and the 2 secs more of consecrate.

Another thing. My dps on brut was acquired by using demonslaying and haste pots. Always make sure you pop avenging wrath, trinket, haste pot at the start of the brut fight once you have Vengeance stacked to 3. This will allow you to get 2 of these combo's off during the fight with the second one during heroism towards the end. I found poping hand of salvation on myself during the first avenging wrath combo to be very helpful.

I actually made a macro that looks exactly like that and then decided not to use it in favor of doing it by hand... lol, so I'll try that.

To the second thing you said, about demonslaying and Haste pots, I can only use one pot per fight, and demonslaving was being overwritten by Battle Shout, so I couldn't even use it. I do not know if that is a bug, however that is what was occurring. But again, with potion sickness I could not pop a second Haste potion.

So, to sum it all up, here is what I understand:

You used that macro for Brutallus, spamming Exorcism (on cd between spell downtime? or on CD?), and HoW post 35%.

After stacking Vengeance to 3 at the start you popped trinkets, a haste pot, and wings, and then popped wings and trinket again near the end (no 2nd potion b/c of potion sickness, correct?).

And yea, I armoried you, and wtb all your gear lol, but in all seriousness, I do not think gear would account for about 900 dps difference? Since you did 3100. Again, I do not really know, so correct me if I am wrong, but I am grateful for all your help.

Thanks

-edit- Oh, last thing, I am using the same glyphs.

-last edit- I checked the logs you linked and I received the same buffs, so it seems that its possibly from the first AW that you did w/ Beserkers Call buff up, as I do not have a trinket near that good. In its stead I'll get the trinket from Jewelcrafting as I do have access to that. Does that seem to be an acceptable dps tradeoff?