Well, the first nerfs are in. DS is doing physical damage.
edit: I did wonder why I could cast it while silenced when we were zerging MC. I guess it counts as a physical strike like CS now instead of a spell.
If this is true, i'm bitterly disappointed to be honest, the whinging and whining of warriors, rogues and druids is overwhelming (and has paid off obviously) to say the least of Retribution in any forums of any kind. Point is, in PvE, our damage is just about right as it all stands in live, a tad less than the pure dps classes.
In PvP on live, Yes I have destroyed other people, on the same token, I've been on the receiving end of a 2-3 shot death at the hands of a arcane and frost mage, still been kited by a hunter and killed in 5 hits, stun locked by a rogue when my bubble and trinket was down nearly till death. I mean is this another knee jerk reaction? I'm rather hoping not as Avitus said. We are no worse than any other class with burst atm from what I've seen. All our disadvantages are well known here. sheer burst is all we have.
Does anyone here know for certain on beta that this is true or not? {edit} Also mentioned is a nerf to judgement damage as well. I notice in the beta forums, two people have mentioned a loss of upto 20% in dps due to the change.(i.e. 1600dps down to 1250dps sustained)
I'm hoping it's just a bug and/or it will be reverted.
Just keep in mind the game is in no way balanced at 70 right now. Even at 80, ret pallies were doing some serious damage in PvP... I think the change to divine storm isn't that big of a hit in PvE and brings the overall damage more in line. My DPS in sunwell was a bit lower than expected from my Rawr module, which is modeled the old way (about 2.7k dps versus an expected 3.2k). I was still decently high on the meters, hunters did spank everyone else pretty terribly and I was fairly in-line with the now overpowered mages, and that's with gear thats 5 months old compared to the rest of the guild (I quit and came back, and haven't taken any gear on my pally since I came back since I'm rerolling).
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
I actually made a macro that looks exactly like that and then decided not to use it in favor of doing it by hand... lol, so I'll try that.
To the second thing you said, about demonslaying and Haste pots, I can only use one pot per fight, and demonslaving was being overwritten by Battle Shout, so I couldn't even use it. I do not know if that is a bug, however that is what was occurring. But again, with potion sickness I could not pop a second Haste potion.
So, to sum it all up, here is what I understand:
You used that macro for Brutallus, spamming Exorcism (on cd between spell downtime? or on CD?), and HoW post 35%.
After stacking Vengeance to 3 at the start you popped trinkets, a haste pot, and wings, and then popped wings and trinket again near the end (no 2nd potion b/c of potion sickness, correct?).
And yea, I armoried you, and wtb all your gear lol, but in all seriousness, I do not think gear would account for about 900 dps difference? Since you did 3100. Again, I do not really know, so correct me if I am wrong, but I am grateful for all your help.
Thanks
-edit- Oh, last thing, I am using the same glyphs.
-last edit- I checked the logs you linked and I received the same buffs, so it seems that its possibly from the first AW that you did w/ Beserkers Call buff up, as I do not have a trinket near that good. In its stead I'll get the trinket from Jewelcrafting as I do have access to that. Does that seem to be an acceptable dps tradeoff?
Yeah everything sounds correct. Also that trinket should be good. That macro just makes stuff rediculously easy and makes your rotation tight. GL in the future with owning it up.
Tyvm for the quick response, I just have to say I find it quite funny that I made a macro like that and then didn't use it, while you did lol and raped >.<
Just keep in mind the game is in no way balanced at 70 right now. Even at 80, ret pallies were doing some serious damage in PvP... I think the change to divine storm isn't that big of a hit in PvE and brings the overall damage more in line. My DPS in sunwell was a bit lower than expected from my Rawr module, which is modeled the old way (about 2.7k dps versus an expected 3.2k). I was still decently high on the meters, hunters did spank everyone else pretty terribly and I was fairly in-line with the now overpowered mages, and that's with gear thats 5 months old compared to the rest of the guild (I quit and came back, and haven't taken any gear on my pally since I came back since I'm rerolling).
At the end of the day though Zurm, GC mentioned a long time ago, the intent was to make all class talent trees that could dps, barely discernable i.e. barely a couple of hundred dps difference, and a good hybrid could via skill actually outdps a "pure dps" class on his/her day.
So i'm presuming you were in Sunwell today in beta with the new changes? Or were you on live as it currently stands with zero changes to DS?
If your in beta, and the fact that your a good 500 dps behind, where actually does that leave Ret in the overall scheme of things, it certainly ain't a good place, that's for sure, because we don't really offer all that much utility, certainly nothing a pure dps class like a hunter can't bring to the table, back to the argument that waged early on in these forums.
Anyway time will tell, and I personally eagerly await confirmation from GC on the forums, sort of a tad disheartened at this stage though, after seeing the potential.
Did anyone try to buff Imp Might in raids? I had mine overwritten every time by BS. It look like by the tool tip its 1 AP more that imp might which is stupid. If thats not tha case why is a 30 min buff being over written buy a 2 min buff?
I couldn't buff might in pretty much any of the bg's I was in last night, because of battle shout. Neither was improved, but it would just tell me a more powerful spell was in effect. Very annoying.
GC mentioned holy damage specifically in his post - in that on a fully sundered mob, it didn't matter much, but in pvp the holy damage might be a bit much. I can see the DS change being intentional - but it isn't terribly surgical to make that change + change judgement damage + change SoL/SoW.
I'm having a hard time believing a hotfix which nerfed us shortly after we were told we were getting nerfed is a bug, especially when GC specifically mentioned our dealing Holy damage as a potential source of problems.
Anyway on the assumption that this is intended, I checked Rawr for a damage breakdown and got DS as 15.7% of our DPS. On a boss with full sunders and Faerie Fire(or equivalents) I see enemy mitigation of 26%. This means that DS should drop from 15.7% of our DPS to about 11.6% of our previous total DPS(this is all using my own stats in Rawr), an approximate 4% total damage loss. This is not insignificant, and is a larger total nerf than the 2H weapon spec changes which were reverted that everyone got so upset about. It seems odd to me that directly after saying our PvE DPS is fine they shave ~150 level 70 DPS off us. I can only imagine this means additional nerfs and buffs will be coming somewhere to equalize, since I really don't see the DS change as affecting anyone below mail in PvP. They'll take some few percent less total damage over time, but all the major sources of our burst are still there.
I've said it before and on different forums, bu why oh why won't they look at Righteous Vengeance for a change to burst instead of hurting our core abilities? It's an awful talent that does nothing except burst, and yet there it sits, unchanged and unloved.
edit: and of course if someone has better math please correct mine, this is the equivalent of napkin math.
Did some sunwell last night. Casters were left in the dust. This is to be expected, as the new talents and synergy really empower melee classes before new spell ranks, gear, scaling, etc.
Our top ranking for DPS was usually, BM hunter, Ret paladin, Enhance shm, Mutilate Rog.
The only fight where Ret really destroyed everyone was Felmyst, obviously. Other than that, the BM hunter was top DPS, by a hundreds of DPS.
So while I do think Ret is very powerful, especially on encounters with with alot of mobs, or even undead, BM hunter still dominates all.
I've said it before and on different forums, bu why oh why won't they look at Righteous Vengeance for a change to burst instead of hurting our core abilities? It's an awful talent that does nothing except burst, and yet there it sits, unchanged and unloved.
edit: and of course if someone has better math please correct mine, this is the equivalent of napkin math.
Maybe because no one specs it? They could make the talent do NOTHING, and it still wouldn't change the damage output of the majority of Ret paladins.
Did i miss something I swear by 99% that Seal of command does not proc off judgement while SoB does?
It does, except for the small detail that SoC's Judgement proc requires that you be in melee range, while SoB's Judgement proc still works at range.
The best way to test this is to get close enough to a target dummy that your auto-attack is in range, but then turn your back to the dummy. Keep judging until you get a SoC. Since you aren't auto-attacking, that isolates the only possible source of SoC procs to just Judgements (which can be cast against enemies behind you).
We did Naj'entus for the guild to get used to their new specs and abilities on an easy run, then headed back to Sunwell. On Brut we had our top two DPS as rogues at 2800ish DPS, myself at 3 with 2600ish DPS, then our two BM hunters right behind with about 2200 DPS. I'm seeing everyone say BM hunters are supposed to be top, and we've definitely got solid hunters, but they don't compare to our two rogue's skill level. I'd say our charts perfectly reflected what they should all night. I was hovering around 5-6 on the non-Demon/Undead fights, number 1 on all trash, and with being number 3 on Brut I felt like we're doing just fine.
What I like about this patch is it seems to reward talent over class (with the exception of shadow priests...we have one of the best players I've seen as a shadow priest and still couldn't get past 1900 DPS on Brut). I can see where ret paladin can use some changes, but at the same time, I can see where other classes need it as well. I'm guessing the people complaining about paladins are complaining because they are so used to us being a utility class with sub-optimal DPS, and us beating people on the charts doesn't sit well with them any more.
From a pvp perspective I was in the same boat as Baldwyn. We destroy people who don't pay attention, but we are still nearly infinitely kiteable (beyond trinket, bubble, and Freedom). A ranged class that knows how to play should beat us in my opinion, but in melee range we should be up there with the previously OP rogues. I've personally seen a good deal of balance, but on the other hand I'm the furthest thing from a mathematician. I consider myself a scientist to the core, however. I rely on other's math, because it's the one branch of science I just can't wrap my mind around. So, going through the scientific method and experimental evidence skill is what matters most in both PvE and PvP with these new changes not improperly balanced classes.
P.S. I also welcome any and all criticism on my perspective...I wouldn't be a good scientist if I didn't :P
At the end of the day though Zurm, GC mentioned a long time ago, the intent was to make all class talent trees that could dps, barely discernable i.e. barely a couple of hundred dps difference, and a good hybrid could via skill actually outdps a "pure dps" class on his/her day.
So i'm presuming you were in Sunwell today in beta with the new changes? Or were you on live as it currently stands with zero changes to DS?
If your in beta, and the fact that your a good 500 dps behind, where actually does that leave Ret in the overall scheme of things, it certainly ain't a good place, that's for sure, because we don't really offer all that much utility, certainly nothing a pure dps class like a hunter can't bring to the table, back to the argument that waged early on in these forums.
Anyway time will tell, and I personally eagerly await confirmation from GC on the forums, sort of a tad disheartened at this stage though, after seeing the potential.
I was on live, but your statement about our lack of utility is rediculous. Of the hybrid DPSers, ret pallies offer some of the best buffs. And the damage is realy good. Keep in mind the DPS difference could also just be my failure at playing... I didn't use a macro, and had barely played my pally on beta (since I'm rerolling DK, almost all my beta time has been on that), and I haven't been playing my pally for anything other than a ZA run to sell bears in a while. Also, it's entirely possible that there are issues with the Rawr model.
Blizzard clearly stated that the way they wanted it to work was that a GOOD hybrid could beat a BAD pure dps... which is exactly where I think we stand. In WoW 2.0, any rogue or warlock with a mental disorder could beat a shadow priest or ret pally... that's just the way it was at equal gear levels. Does it suck that nerfs came and/or are coming? Sure. Were they called for? I think that even if you really think about it, even you would agree ret pallies needed a nerf.
Originally Posted by eMagdAeH
On Brut we had our top two DPS as rogues at 2800ish DPS, myself at 3 with 2600ish DPS, then our two BM hunters right behind with about 2200 DPS. I'm seeing everyone say BM hunters are supposed to be top, and we've definitely got solid hunters, but they don't compare to our two rogue's skill level.
Our hunters were absolutely obliterating meters in sunwell... and no they don't have thoridal. In fact, I am surprised your hunters did so little DPS... our hunters had their pets alone doing 1-1.2k dps, and our one BM hunter did over 3k DPS on brut and his pet couldn't even hit the boss (some wierd bug).
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Well, the first nerfs are in. DS is doing physical damage.
edit: I did wonder why I could cast it while silenced when we were zerging MC. I guess it counts as a physical strike like CS now instead of a spell.
Everyone needs to stop freaking out.
I'm thinking it's either a bug, or they're testing it. It also doesn't make any sense that they'd hotfix it without saying a word, especially since GC said they would let us know.
These are some of the things that apparently changed:
-Judgment of light and seal of light reduced by around 50%.
-Judgment of command damage reduced by around 25%.
-Divine storm doing 100% physical damage instead of 100% holy.
As I stated yesterday, we are happy with Ret's PvE damage and sustatined damage in PvP, but were concerned that the burst damage in PvP could be too high. We discussed this for literally hours yesterday, which was certainly not the first time we have discussed the issue. Thus I hope these changes are not perceived as a knee-jerk reaction, but I am sure that will depend a great deal on which class you play.
Divine Storm -- the damage was changed from Holy to Physical. As you know, Holy damage is almost never mitigated and this talent could pack a lot into a very short time. This is a nerf to the ability's damage. This change is now active on Live.
Repentence -- this ability now lasts for only 6 seconds in PvP (down from 10). Obviously this is also a nerf. This change is also active on Live.
Art of War -- now affects all damage done by Judgements, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm (instead of critical strike damage). Net dps should be about the same but less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.
Righteous Vengeance -- now applies a dot affect similar to Deep Wounds (instead of critical strike damage). This ends up being a significant buff to the ability to make up for the damage lost to Divine Storm, but is also less bursty. This change will be made before Nov 13.
Glyph of Crusader Strike -- now reduces mana cost (instead of increased damage on stunned targets.) We thought paladins could stack too much damage vs. stunned targets. This change will be made before Nov 13.
We also fixed a bug with Seal and Judgement of Light that could sometimes result in too much healing.
In our tests, Retribution dps remains the same over longer periods of time, but they can't do quite so much damage in the initial few seconds of a PvP encounter.
I know Ret pallies feel a little picked on since we've made this mistake before of having them come out the gate too strong and then had to correct them. For that I do apologize. It's a difficult spec to balance since part of its design is to have large crits and stuns, which have obvious PvP implications. We are pretty confident this will not nerf pallies into the ground as I facetiously promised yesterday, but if we overdid it, we'll be happy to back off some of the changes.
On the other hand, maybe we'll see fewer BGs with 20 paladins on the opposing side and can get some reasonable feedback on all the other classes in the game.
We did Naj'entus for the guild to get used to their new specs and abilities on an easy run, then headed back to Sunwell. On Brut we had our top two DPS as rogues at 2800ish DPS, myself at 3 with 2600ish DPS, then our two BM hunters right behind with about 2200 DPS. I'm seeing everyone say BM hunters are supposed to be top, and we've definitely got solid hunters, but they don't compare to our two rogue's skill level. I'd say our charts perfectly reflected what they should all night. I was hovering around 5-6 on the non-Demon/Undead fights, number 1 on all trash, and with being number 3 on Brut I felt like we're doing just fine.
Assuming the BM hunters you're referring to are Giraffe and Svaros, I expect they'll do better once they get their talent specs straightened out--feel free to send them over to our thread. I'm thrilled at the changes to retadins (I play one as well), but after months of Warlocks doing better dps and bringing more utility to the raid, I'm nervous about utility dps beat pure dps.
-Do all Judgements still go off the spell hit cap (17%) or was that changed (9% melee cap)?
I'm fairly certain JoC and JoB are going with the melee cap. Did a couple of tests yesterday with 9% hit against a level 70 and never missed.
--
And concerning the Ret pally changes, it pains me that they've done it (because I personally liked DS as holy damage better) but that's what we've been constantly asking for. These changes seem to be good for sustained and will tone down our pvp ability. It's something that I think makes me happy. I personally can't wait for the new RV. I always had my suspicions that it would never go live with the shitty crit modifiers.
The AoW change is very good. 20% damage is much, much better than 20% crit damage.
Really, these changes make us seem more warrior-ish, which in the end is what we are, holy warriors. It really wouldn't surprise me if they gave us an interrupt soon-ish.
So while they have made the nerfs already, they haven't pushed through the changes to AoW and Righteous Vengeance?
sigh.
Honestly nothing we do in the next month matters. These nerfs are nothing compared to the nerf to the raid content, and the PvP season is over. As long as everything gets finished and patched in before wotlk, I'm more than ok with them doing it in phases.
As long as the new RV makes up for the DPS loss from DS and AoW is a wash, I'm pretty content. 6s repentance in PVP will be fine and GC confirmed that it won't break on the Deep Righteous Wounds of Vengeance(c).
The only downside I see is that we're just losing all of our flavor. We're pretty much exactly TBC Arms warriors now; MS -> CS, WW -> DS, Slam -> Judgement and DW -> RV. It's not that new or exciting, but at least we don't have to worry about swing timers.
Edit: Anauel, they will most certainly not leave AoW at 20% flat damage increase. It will drop a large amount depending on their balancing tests, in order to make it neither a DPS increase nor a DPS decrease. They're just trying to eliminate burst.
So while they have made the nerfs already, they haven't pushed through the changes to AoW and Righteous Vengeance?
sigh.
That's a very temporary problem to be worried about. There's much more in play here than the 2 forgettable weeks between 3.0 and waddle-k. Agreed, it could have gone the other way and they could have left it in place - but form his point, he thought the issue was egregious enough that it impacted all of the other classes to the point of making it hard to get anything constructive from this calm before the storm.
Over time, this issue is negligible.
EDIT TO ADD
Originally Posted by Anauel
I'm fairly certain JoC and JoB are going with the melee cap. Did a couple of tests yesterday with 9% hit against a level 70 and never missed.
--
And concerning the Ret pally changes, it pains me that they've done it (because I personally liked DS as holy damage better) but that's what we've been constantly asking for. These changes seem to be good for sustained and will tone down our pvp ability. It's something that I think makes me happy. I personally can't wait for the new RV. I always had my suspicions that it would never go live with the shitty crit modifiers.
The AoW change is very good. 20% damage is much, much better than 20% crit damage.
Really, these changes make us seem more warrior-ish, which in the end is what we are, holy warriors. It really wouldn't surprise me if they gave us an interrupt soon-ish.
We'll have to see.
I'd be very, very surprised if 20% is what we see on the new AoW.
10/16/08, 10:02 AM
