I also doubt they will add in a 20% flat out damage upgrade on AoW, perhaps a 5/10%
The deep wounds effect is probably going to be iffy if its dispellable, but overall I think the ret community can /sigh relief as we all feared they would go overboard on nerfs (to prevent a TBC 2.0 Lock rehash)
As levk said, Judgements are (supposed to be) using the ranged hit table.
The key difference is that only results ranged attacks can have are miss, block, crit and hit. Once you hit the 9% cap, you shouldn't ever see anything other than crits and hits, removing the need for expertise (at least specifically for Judgements).
As levk said, Judgements are (supposed to be) using the ranged hit table.
The key difference is that only results ranged attacks can have are miss, block, crit and hit. Once you hit the 9% cap, you shouldn't ever see anything other than crits and hits, removing the need for expertise (at least specifically for Judgements).
I'll have a hard time getting used to this, specifically previously "all spell mechanic" abilities such as SoR/JoR, SoV/JoV going for melee hit cap and doing melee crits (2x) now too if your information is correct.
This means that the only spells that go off spell hit and spell crit that we have left are Exorcism and Holy Wrath (?).
Anyway I'll post it like that unless someone has conflicting information.
Assuming the BM hunters you're referring to are Giraffe and Svaros, I expect they'll do better once they get their talent specs straightened out--feel free to send them over to our thread. I'm thrilled at the changes to retadins (I play one as well), but after months of Warlocks doing better dps and bringing more utility to the raid, I'm nervous about utility dps beat pure dps.
Those were the hunters. The problem is both of them are very inconsistent on showing up. Giraffe has been playing his druid more and is out of practice. He used to be one of the better hunters on our server about a year ago...but he's also a massive stoner and it affects his game play. Svaros recently switched mains about 8 months ago, so he's still feeling it out, plus he's working a lot during raid times so he can't go much. I will link the thread for them though...any particular section I should link them to?
As an aside, I'm also with you that utility beating pure DPS is a bit worrisome. We'll just see if that remains true once everyone gets their timing and specs hammered out.
Art of War was NOT majorly buffed. The damage should remain the same over time, but fewer gigantic crits. It will be something like +4 / 8% damage (instead of +10 / 20% crit), which should be the same overall assuming a crit rate of around 40%.
Righteous Vengeance was majorly buffed to make up for the Divine Storm nerf. It should end up at something like 10% of the crit damage each tick for 4 ticks of 2 seconds each (+40% and 8 sec total).
If the new RV is equal to the warrior deep wounds (our arms warrior was having his deep wounds tick for over 800) it wont be too terrible. Nerfing burst in hope of PVE viability.
Art of War was NOT majorly buffed. The damage should remain the same over time, but fewer gigantic crits. It will be something like +4 / 8% damage (instead of +10 / 20% crit), which should be the same overall assuming a crit rate of around 40%.
Righteous Vengeance was majorly buffed to make up for the Divine Storm nerf. It should end up at something like 10% of the crit damage each tick for 4 ticks of 2 seconds each (+40% and 8 sec total).
Yes, this seems to be the general case, unless you're using some non-standard additional expertise item. We're assuming 3xT6 (+optional racial) is your only other expertise sources.
Obviously as a dwarf wielding a mace (+5 expertise) or a Human with a Sword/Mace (+3 expertise) the value is reduced somewhat, however not enough for DC:C to overtake Shard.
Thanks, this change was easy enough to make and sure enough a 2 minute cool AW/BC macro worked very nicely.
The other thing I'm having trouble wrapping my mind around, especially with these new nerfs/changes, is if, as an alliance paladin, if I should be getting better damage from SoComm or SotM. Running some short tests on the practice dummies I saw JotM hitting for roughly the same as JoComm, but perhaps my sample size was too small.
If we are deciding to use SoComm over SotM, does that also require swapping out the consecrate glyph for the SoComm glyph? I'm unsure as relative advantages/disadvantages of this if SoComm is the better choice, as the longer cool on consecrate really makes rotations easier.
If the new RV is equal to the warrior deep wounds (our arms warrior was having his deep wounds tick for over 800) it wont be too terrible. Nerfing burst in hope of PVE viability.
40% crit damage over 8 seconds doesn't sound terrible at all. Hopefully it rolls with itself, and I think 40% crit damage over 8 seconds is a lot more than Deep Wounds.
My question now, is which is better? Should I be gearing more towards ArP instead of haste now?
Also, I was testing dps on the dummies in Ironforge last night, and was managing 1800 w/ wings, and today using the same rotation was only managing 1600 max. Is the change to DS really that powerful that it would reduce my dps by 200?
The only downside I see is that we're just losing all of our flavor. We're pretty much exactly TBC Arms warriors now; MS -> CS, WW -> DS, Slam -> Judgement and DW -> RV. It's not that new or exciting, but at least we don't have to worry about swing timers.
This is my big problem with these changes* - CS is basically just MS but without the debuff (and we've been complaining about how utterly boring it was all through beta since they removed the judgement-refreshing), and now they've removed all of the flavour of Divine Storm (which was already pretty dull, seeing as it was just Holy Whirlwind... and now it's not even Holy... but at least you get a level 20 potion's worth of healing from it).
And so this post isn't just whining, GC posted an update in the previously linked thread with some rough ballpark numbers for what Art of War/Righteous Vengeance should end up being:
Art of War was NOT majorly buffed. The damage should remain the same over time, but fewer gigantic crits. It will be something like +4 / 8% damage (instead of +10 / 20% crit), which should be the same overall assuming a crit rate of around 40%.
Righteous Vengeance was majorly buffed to make up for the Divine Storm nerf. It should end up at something like 10% of the crit damage each tick for 4 ticks of 2 seconds each (+40% and 8 sec total).
* Well, the BIG problem is that yet again they're pushing out knee-jerk untested nerfs as soon as the ignorant masses start to scream, when they've had literally months of beta to see what was happening and respond, but that seems to be their modus operandi when it comes to paladins, so i can't say i wasn't expecting it.
40% crit damage over 8 seconds doesn't sound terrible at all. Hopefully it rolls with itself, and I think 40% crit damage over 8 seconds is a lot more than Deep Wounds.
Well it would be.. but I assume it only affects divine storm and judgement still? What percent of our total damage are those in the preferred rotation at 80?
My question now, is which is better? Should I be gearing more towards ArP instead of haste now?
It would seem that with this change ArP's value has gone up again, but our damage output is still only about half physical, so I don't think that its place in the hierarchy of stats will have changed.
As an aside, I'm also with you that utility beating pure DPS is a bit worrisome. We'll just see if that remains true once everyone gets their timing and specs hammered out.
This has been the central change since Wotlk was announced, there is no "utility and pure DPS" anymore, everyone offers something and everyone should doing competitive DPS.
Take the very extreme of traditionally "pure" classes, the rogue:
[Expose Armor] which is probably the best melee DPS boosting ability there is. "But it doesn't Stack!", well neither does any of our stuff
This is taking rogues (so far the "purest of pure classes"). Name any other pure class and they have a ton of utility now too: MMO-Champion RaidComp
We're probably on the comfortable end of buffs/utility I won't deny, but you really need to shake off this whole utility vs pure dps perception. That was the discussion of last month.
40% crit damage over 8 seconds doesn't sound terrible at all. Hopefully it rolls with itself, and I think 40% crit damage over 8 seconds is a lot more than Deep Wounds.
Is that 'Holy Wounds' DoT applied by any DS and Judgement crit? Or just DS?
Is that 'Holy Wounds' DoT applied by any DS and Judgement crit? Or just DS?
We'll have to wait and see. Deep wounds is affected by all attacks, so I'm hoping this is too. It is our tier 10 talent, and it's very likely going to be 5 talent points so I'm hoping it's at the very least applied by seals/judgement/DS.
Sorry for this off-topic post but I see links to wmo.ngacn.cc for hosting logs and it's not letting me use 3.0 logs, how did you get this to work? Or what's a good wwstats replacement to use now that they've dropped the ball (again), recount is ok but we don't exactly have time to go over all the numbers in detail between bosses with it.
I hope they will change Righteous Fury to affect all damage (not only holy) to help casual Ret tanking. Granted it is not "serious business" but still it should be done.
New AoW seems to be ok, yet 5/10% would be safer. I am just worried that this talent could get worse in time while being little too good at start. Well we shall see...
New RV, well... anything to replace current RV is good right? I do not think anyone took it for PvP and for PvE I was getting it only because I had nothing better to dump points in. I am really not happy that it is based on crits and while it is, it better proc from any crit, "stack" like DW does and be reduced to 3 talent points. Hell they can copy DW and paste it into RV place for all I care - it is that good now (since stacking fix).
Also I am confused... They wanted to nerf burst but they did not touched SoC and HoJ? Additionally when something is took away something should be added, Ret have loads of things they would love to see: snare, real interrupt, "intercept" etc.
Changing new CS glyph from useless mana cost reduction to snare and increasing joke healing on DS would be great start.
Irony is great. I can see this change in line with Tigole's(?) comment that they dont want to make us PvP gods, but at the same time not nerfing the hell out of PvE.
My big questions are--is the FoL heal still effected by a crit from those three skills, and what % of the damaging attack/crit will RV be balanced to? Will Crusader strike get a secondary attack, and where does that leave DS in an attack rotation now that it has a longer cooldown and on the surface does less damage than our 41-pt strike (assuming were not in a aoe situation)?
"We've nerfed SoB/SoC because we un-nerfed Righteous Vengeance/2H spec because we nerfed Righteous Vengeance and 2H spec because we buffed Crusade because we nerfed Vengeance because we felt it was over-budgeted for 4 years and your burst was too high."
We'll have to wait and see. Deep wounds is affected by all attacks, so I'm hoping this is too. It is our tier 10 talent, and it's very likely going to be 5 talent points so I'm hoping it's at the very least applied by seals/judgement/DS.
Since DS is doing less damage, its heal is doing less. Any chance that those "deep wounds" ticks from a DS would continue to heal? I doubt it, but worth the thought.
We'll have to wait and see. Deep wounds is affected by all attacks, so I'm hoping this is too. It is our tier 10 talent, and it's very likely going to be 5 talent points so I'm hoping it's at the very least applied by seals/judgement/DS.
I certainly hope it will work on all attacks. That could allow us to maintain the DoT more easily.
Some questions I have still are:
- Is that DoT a magical or physical effect?
- Is 3 debuff slots for Ret (JoW/L, Heart of the Crusader and now 'Holy Wounds') intended and ok?
- As others have said, burst is what Ret does. Since Blizzard hath taken away some burst, I wonder, will give us anything in the way of control/pressure moves to compensate?
Has anyone done some tests with large aoe packs and the dps difference from SoB/SoC? It would seem logically that SoB would be better because of the guaranteed proc (assuming you don't kill yourself). From the very little testing I've done (switching them between air phases on felmyst) it seems to be about the same, just like SoC/SoB seem about the same for single target dps.
Well, looks like its about time to re-write half the Rawr module again. Looking to you guys for numbers and modeling suggestions!
In the current 2.0.2 version armour penetration does not seem to be working correctly. Swapping around gear with ArP does not affect the basic stat and it seems some items are not getting higher consideration because of their ArP stats (ArP being ignored).
10/16/08, 1:47 PM
