I hope they will change Righteous Fury to affect all damage (not only holy) to help casual Ret tanking. Granted it is not "serious business" but still it should be done.
It does, as part of "baked in salvation." Righteous fury is 43% (1/0.7) threat to everything ON TOP of the extra holy threat, stacks multiplicatively (if that's a word). This is not on any tooltip. To be clear, if you have righteous fury active 100 damage non-holy damage attack does 100 * 1.43 = 143 worth of threat and 100 holy damage does 100 * 1.43 * 1.96 = 280. Defensive stance and bear form have the same modifier too.
Does anyone know if the JoL nerf is already on live servers in EU? Because I completely owned the healing meters in BT today on several boss fights. If that's the nerfed version then it's still very good.
I agree with this spec... altho one question would be "Why not improved retribution aura?", since that now auras will be raid wide and scale with spellpower.
What kind of rotation are people finding to deliver the max dps with a spec like that?
I have been toying around with my own ideas with specs, and every single one seems to have a significant down fall. That one however doesn't, and is probably the best I have seen so far. Which makes me wonder if I was completely barking up the wrong tree with my rotation, as well as my spec.
I'm currently using:
SoC -> Judge -> CS -> Consc -> DS.
I've been toying around with SoV for boss fights etc also, but it doesn't appear to offer any benefit.
I was on live, but your statement about our lack of utility is rediculous. Of the hybrid DPSers, ret pallies offer some of the best buffs. And the damage is realy good. Keep in mind the DPS difference could also just be my failure at playing... I didn't use a macro, and had barely played my pally on beta (since I'm rerolling DK, almost all my beta time has been on that), and I haven't been playing my pally for anything other than a ZA run to sell bears in a while. Also, it's entirely possible that there are issues with the Rawr model.
Blizzard clearly stated that the way they wanted it to work was that a GOOD hybrid could beat a BAD pure dps... which is exactly where I think we stand. In WoW 2.0, any rogue or warlock with a mental disorder could beat a shadow priest or ret pally... that's just the way it was at equal gear levels. Does it suck that nerfs came and/or are coming? Sure. Were they called for? I think that even if you really think about it, even you would agree ret pallies needed a nerf.
I don't think my statement about "lack of utility" to make up for a "lack of dps" is ridiculous at all to be honest. Our mana regeneration ability, % crit ability etc etc can be replicated by many other classes, BoM doesn't stack anymore with warrior BS etc etc. I'm personally not going to argue about it, but I wish to defend my statement based on these things. We don't offer anything all that unique anymore mate, anyway this was argued about earlier and I don't wish to revisit it.
Anyhow they have made changes to other talents to compensate for these initial "bursty" losses, so we'll obviously test and see what comes of it all.
Originally Posted by Janraea
Well it would be.. but I assume it only affects divine storm and judgement still? What percent of our total damage are those in the preferred rotation at 80?
They should be around 12% and 15% approx. respectively
It does, as part of "baked in salvation." Righteous fury is 43% (1/0.7) threat to everything ON TOP of the extra holy threat, stacks multiplicatively (if that's a word). This is not on any tooltip. To be clear, if you have righteous fury active 100 damage non-holy damage attack does 100 * 1.43 = 143 worth of threat and 100 holy damage does 100 * 1.43 * 1.96 = 280. Defensive stance and bear form have the same modifier too.
Not quite. A Warrior gets a (1.45 * 1.43) multiplier on all his damage. Our Holy damage gets a (1.9 * 1.43) multiplier, while our non-Holy damage gets just the 1.43 multiplier, which leaves it relatively of the same threat value considering that DPS no longer has Salvation.
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As for Holy Deep Wounds, I'm trying to remain largely optimistic. Deep Wounds is a hell of a thing for a Warrior, going as high as 20% of their total DPS, and could mean the same for us, assuming they retain the "rolling" mechanic.
Does anyone know if the JoL nerf is already on live servers in EU? Because I completely owned the healing meters in BT today on several boss fights. If that's the nerfed version then it's still very good.
Whatever happens, if they haven't re-implemented the 4sec internal cooldown JoL is going to be pretty huge. Still, as far as I know Recount doesn't take JoL overhealing into account, so it may be worth having another look once we have a better tool for assessing its effectiveness.
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Disappointed as I am over DS no longer being holy I'm not too fussed over the change. The only point I do find disappointing is that we're getting yet another 'increases damage by x%' talent. The new Righteous Vengeance should be interesting though, depending on the mechanics that it adopts.
As for Glyphs... yeah it's a pretty awful state of affairs. Blizzard should have dedicated more personnel to the new profession because, relative power of Glyphs aside, the vast majority are pretty uninspired.
Whatever happens, if they haven't re-implemented the 4sec internal cooldown JoL is going to be pretty huge. Still, as far as I know Recount doesn't take JoL overhealing into account, so it may be worth having another look once we have a better tool for assessing its effectiveness.
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Disappointed as I am over DS no longer being holy I'm not too fussed over the change. The only point I do find disappointing is that we're getting yet another 'increases damage by x%' talent. The new Righteous Vengeance should be interesting though, depending on the mechanics that it adopts.
As for Glyphs... yeah it's a pretty awful state of affairs. Blizzard should have dedicated more personnel to the new profession because, relative power of Glyphs aside, the vast majority are pretty uninspired.
well when our wws for KJ goes up i will link it when it is uploaded. I topped healing for the fight, it was insane (yes im ret).
There is alot of noise in the forums regarding the dot... will it be Physical or magic? will it refresh with crits ala ignites and loose dps? there is alot of things we wont know until it goes up on beta. I dont like the change to Divine storm as it takes the unique feel from it! its just like an AOE CS now which hits moderately.
As far as glyphs, im thinking about going the consecration glyph over crusader strike now. Whats everyone take on that?
well when our wws for KJ goes up i will link it when it is uploaded. I topped healing for the fight, it was insane (yes im ret).
If you are using Recount it is currently bugged and shows raw healing rather than effective. We had several fights where shadowpriests topped healing. So you aren't quite as uber as you think. Sorry.
Also I think you'll find WWS is broken at the moment, which is unfortunate as it would be very nice to be able to perform some decent analysis on these new abilities we all have.
Did a blue acknowledge that Judgement on Seal of the Martyr (Alliance) is doing 25% weapon damage versus 45% on Horde? I tested Beta and it has the same issues as Live with incorrect damage.
That sucks that Alliance have little choice but to use Command still (at least there is a Glyph + Libram to help it out).
Millions of words are written annually purporting to tell how to beat the races, whereas the best possible advice on the subject is found in the three monosyllables: 'Do not try.'
Did a blue acknowledge that Judgement on Seal of the Martyr (Alliance) is doing 25% weapon damage versus 45% on Horde? I tested Beta and it has the same issues as Live with incorrect damage.
That sucks that Alliance have little choice but to use Command still (at least there is a Glyph + Libram to help it out).
i cant confirm this, i will do some testing this afternoon. I havent read anyone complaining thoroughly of this yet though.
Has anyone tested the glyph of consecration now to use with SOB how would this effect a rotation?
I don't think my statement about "lack of utility" to make up for a "lack of dps" is ridiculous at all to be honest. Our mana regeneration ability, % crit ability etc etc can be replicated by many other classes, BoM doesn't stack anymore with warrior BS etc etc. I'm personally not going to argue about it, but I wish to defend my statement based on these things. We don't offer anything all that unique anymore mate, anyway this was argued about earlier and I don't wish to revisit it.
Both examples you cited are better than their alternatives, though. Our replenishment procs off every Judgement, every time, as opposed to some hoops shadowpriest have to jump through to get theirs. SV hunters proc it on crit, which isn't too hard, but their damage is apparently subpar at the moment. Likewise, our blessing is better than BS by virtue of longer duration (and at level 80 a few more points of AP). Furthermore, we bring unique and fairly powerful utility in JoL/JoW. So I think your complaints are unfounded, I believe we are in a very good position now PvE-wise. Destroying BT last night was the most fun I had raiding for some time.
Is the Belaltor spreadsheet going to be updated? Or is the current version what we are going to use from now on?
When all our abilities settle down, i'll try to get it updated, but takes a while and not a lot of time on my hands atm. There is Rawr which is being updated I believe and looks a lot nicer than mine
In the current 2.0.2 version armour penetration does not seem to be working correctly. Swapping around gear with ArP does not affect the basic stat and it seems some items are not getting higher consideration because of their ArP stats (ArP being ignored).
Zurm - I noticed that in both Rawr 2.0.1 and 2.0.2 you had to update gear from Armory to get any gear with ArP to be properly valued. Still none of the icons show any ArP value and the value on the overview page doesn't change when you change the gear.
If you are using Recount it is currently bugged and shows raw healing rather than effective. We had several fights where shadowpriests topped healing. So you aren't quite as uber as you think. Sorry.
Also I think you'll find WWS is broken at the moment, which is unfortunate as it would be very nice to be able to perform some decent analysis on these new abilities we all have.
Nah, WWS isn't broken, there is a small downgrader avaible to make fit your logfiles.
Here are the results from a quick BT run till Teron. Even with 20 people it's a pure joke. Wow Web Stats
It's definetely hard to compete with a skilled hunter, but i guess we still had both some problems with a proper "rotation". Used a handish FCFS system and I hope I was able to set up Divine Storm at the end of the priority system, which feels a little wrong
Ignore both broken Teron fights, server crashed and almost nobody was able to do anything with strange results.
I just had a quick look at our Muru kill last night, and I'm interested to know if anybody else in here is also having very bad crit rate on judgements and seals.
According to our Wow Web Stats report, SoB only crited for 17% and JoB only for 30% of the time. The rest of the abilities were more or less correct. Both seals and judgements seem to be criting by 30% less. Is it just bad RNG or is there a bug there?
BTW, for others still attempting to kill muru, dont use this wws report as a guide. Im still modless with blizz ui, was laging lots, still have the wrong enchants and gems and I didnt use much, if any, consumables.
I had quite high crit rates on SoB/JoB, as you note this report separates the damage done to yourself down at the bottom. If the damage was added together, the crit rates shown would be much lower.
BTW, for others still attempting to kill muru, dont use this wws report as a guide. Im still modless with blizz ui, was laging lots, still have the wrong enchants and gems and I didnt use much, if any, consumables.
For everyone who is still attempting to kill M'uru: just nuke him down. We managed to kill him after 1st VoidSentinel was dead and before the second one spawned (1 Humanoid Wave, which was killed by the melee-DPS at Darkness).
When all our abilities settle down, i'll try to get it updated, but takes a while and not a lot of time on my hands atm. There is Rawr which is being updated I believe and looks a lot nicer than mine
But the Rawr module was built off the work you did back in BC. You sir, are the king of theorycraft modeling ;P (for ret pallies)
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
But the Rawr module was built off the work you did back in BC. You sir, are the king of theorycraft modeling ;P (for ret pallies)
Speaking of Rawr, I keep getting strange results regarding +hit, where even if I am below the hitcap I am getting substantial more dps with certain gear changes, not even large stat changes. Anyone have a bit of number crunching that may enlighten me? (note, I am also half asleep so that might be 99% of the reason)
As has been discussed multiple times over the last few pages, hit is no longer the best stat if you are below cap. It has to do with changes to mechanics. The stat equivalences are CALCULATED by rawr based on how models are set up, so I can assure you that minus some SIGNIFICANT bug (I know I have a whole buttload of changes incoming with the recent blue post) you can expect the results to be fairly accurate.
Formally Xyrm/Zurm, the Ret Pally. Now playing my rogue, Zyrm, more casually with RL friends.
Based on the 4/8% AoW increase and 40% DoT Righteous Fury, I have done a quick analysis to see how the dps has changed compared to what it is now. What I have found is:-
Judgement = About 12% increase @ 65%Crit (Starts off as 0% increase @ 0%Crit and increase as Crit% increases)
Crusader Strike = About 2% increase @ 40%Crit (Starts off as 8% increase @ 0%Crit and decreases as Crit% Increases)
Divine Storm = About 12% decrease @40%Crit (Starts off as 19% decrease @ 0%Crit and increase as Crit % Increases)
Overall Blizz seems to have kept the pve sustained dps about the same (assuming the 4/8% AoW and 40% DoT are implemented that way)
As for the Crusader Strike glyph, the new one is just crazy. 0.8% mana every 6 seconds....for a class that is a mana battery and in no need of extra mana. Stupid change.
As has been discussed multiple times over the last few pages, hit is no longer the best stat if you are below cap. It has to do with changes to mechanics. The stat equivalences are CALCULATED by rawr based on how models are set up, so I can assure you that minus some SIGNIFICANT bug (I know I have a whole buttload of changes incoming with the recent blue post) you can expect the results to be fairly accurate.
Can you identify where this is discussed over the "last few pages". I'm having trouble locating that.
As has been discussed multiple times over the last few pages, hit is no longer the best stat if you are below cap. It has to do with changes to mechanics. The stat equivalences are CALCULATED by rawr based on how models are set up, so I can assure you that minus some SIGNIFICANT bug (I know I have a whole buttload of changes incoming with the recent blue post) you can expect the results to be fairly accurate.
Going over the past 10 pages or so, I see this topic brought up several times, but the only real "discussion" I see are statements alot the lines of "many mechanics have changed, and that's the result Rawr spits out now". No offense, but that is not a valid explanation. It doesn't do anyone any good to use a program if we can't understand WHY it gives the results that it does. So let's think about it, what mechanics specifically have changed that would make Str/AP and Crit/Agi so much more valuable per point than Hit/Expertise?
For Str/AP, the obvious changes are Divine Strength increased to 15%, the addition of Sheath of Light, and the changes to how seals/judgements scale with AP/SP. These are some pretty massive buffs to the scaling of the Str stat, so I think it's easily believable that 1 Str could be more DPS than 1 Hit, especially since the relationship between Str and Hit was never an obvious one to begin with, since Str is not a %DPS increase like Hit/Crit.
For Crit/Agi, the only major changes I can think of are the increased critical damage bonuses on Art of War and Righteous Vengeance. I really don't see how those talents could be nearly enough to make 1 Crit rating better than 1 Hit rating. Even if we overexaggerate the Crit bonus and pretend like it multiplies all crits by 2.5, then 1% Crit would only be an approximate 0.9% DPS increase (assuming 40% crit). 1% Hit should give more than 1% DPS increase, since Seals cannot proc if the original autoattack/CS/DS misses. Now throw in the fact that 1% Hit is only 15.7 rating while 1% Crit is 22.1 rating, and I really don't see how 1 Crit rating can beat 1 Hit rating.
Are there any other major mechanic changes that I'm forgetting, that could explain the results Rawr gives?
On "live" I've noticed with the DS nerf, my dps has dropped 100 dps basically sustained, and is not making a hell of a lot of difference in PvP to be honest, still topping charts by a fair margin, it is however feeling very very close to where we should be, and fights aren't so one sided that's for sure. Have you guys noticed the same or similar?
I don't know how I'm feeling about the upcoming crit damage % being taken away for the dot effect and flat damage increase (I can handle the DS nerf, because it was too OP definitely), I can see us really struggling against an equally skilled/smart hunter/mage/lock, we can't close the gap quick enough and need the burst with the dps they are outputting. Still annihilating warriors/rogues however .
Personally I wont know until tomorrow how the change is overall on the PvE raiding scene, heading to BT for a run, so time will tell. Hopefully it's a happy result as outlined by others here or a tad better.
Have run 5 man normals and hovering around 1700-1800 sustained dps in S2 gear, was 1800-1900 sustained before DS change. So it is surgical really I guess 0_0.
10/16/08, 4:29 PM
