• frmorrison

My paladin (with 0 miss on Brut with 6% hit) was Holy pre-patch.

Note that is seems the 3% hit is banked into some talent, good to know it is not a class passive.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Khaelarys

The big giant one is ???....

Blood elf, no weapon, max unarmed skill. I didn't do any sort of specials or anything. I hit the test dummy 1480ish times or so and ended up with a 5.2 miss rate - I think 5 is exactly what I should expect to see in that case, so I'm hoping it has more to do with the boss mob hit rate, because otherwise I'm just not seeing it.

How many swings should I take before I can expect to see a statistically relevant data set?

 

• frmorrison

You got a 5.2% miss rate on the ??? dummy (which is a boss, +3 levels above you)?

It should be closer to 9% (on a boss), so that implies something is giving 3% hit. On a 70 it should be around 5% miss.


1000+ hits sounds decent enough for a miss test.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Khaelarys

No, sorry.. I was sort of half clarifying my post from above. I was hitting the 70 dummy. I'll do the ??? tonight.

 

levk

Have you tried hitting the boss dummy? I only swung at it only a few times, I think it's fixed at 83. The times it didn't dodge I got glances, not one normal hit.

 

Exemplar

I can confirm the ??? seems to act as 83, not +3. I found the same results (everything glances) when I tried it back on the PTR, gave it up as useless for providing accurate data.

 

Khaelarys

No, but I can try it on beta tonight against the ??? mob if we think that would be useful at all.

It's several builds ahead though - seems a little careless.

 

Anauel

That's strange.

Did you have any talents? Did you use any aura?

As previously mentioned, 1000+ swings is a big enough sample.

 

Kelvin8r

I have a thought about the hidden 3% hit. Is it possible that Misery/Improved Faerie Fire are giving melee hit as well?

 

Nicki

1000 attacks against level 70 dummy 2.5% miss very inconclusive also as prot spec...

going to do the same test on my warrior alt

 

Valerys

I only use it on myself to help healers in fights with lots of raid damage.

 

Anauel

This doesn't have anything to do with it, unless you have tried the tests with a druid/priest on the mob at the same time, and even then you'd see a lot of misses since of our attacks 4 aren't spells (autoattack, CS, DS, seals).

 

Nicki

So I went too do this test on my warrior that is on a pvp server only managed to get 870 attacks but a 4.6% miss rate

So now all I have to do is take the time to be very bored and hit a raid boss with 6% hit and get a miss...zg here i come!

 

Khaelarys

Ret aura.

Talents...

The World of Warcraft Armory

No blessing, no other buffs, no one in my party, no one hitting the mob with me, Dummy was the level 70 dummy in UC.

Well, that's not true. I had the trick or treat debuf for most of it. I really just can't imagine that factoring in.

Nicki said he had a 2.5% miss rate - that's just insane. Something fishy is going on. I'll start tonight with different weapons and with full gear and such. See what's what.

 

Isiza

Since patch 3.0 with the SoC glyph, i am seeing substantial more damage with SoC than SoB. I am a blood elf paladin and still fairly new to ret, being it only 4-5 months.

I was wondering if it was my gear or something that caused this, here is my armoury:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...e&n=Izzi%C3%A0

Also on the test dummies i ran 6 separate tests to prove this - each test length 5 min.

*One with seal of blood auto attacking and judging on cd,
*One with seal of blood just auto attacking - no judging
*One with full rotation with Seal of blood

then

**One with seal of command auto attacking and judging on cd.
*One with seal of command just auto attacking - no judging
*One with full rotation of Seal of Command.

Here were the results


SoB - auto (no judging):
ImageShack - Hosting :: sobautoba1.jpg
SoB - Judging on CD :
ImageShack - Hosting :: sobjudginglw4.jpg
SoB - Full Rotation:
ImageShack - Hosting :: jobfullxc8.jpg

Now

SoC -auto (not judging):
ImageShack - Hosting :: socautoli8.jpg
SoC - Judging on CD:
ImageShack - Hosting :: jocjudgemm9.jpg
SoC - Full Rotation:
ImageShack - Hosting :: jocfullje0.jpg


I know my full rotations are a little off, but from everything i see i have better damage with SoC than SoB, am i doing something wrong that my dps is lower with Command, or SoC really better than SoB

 

• frmorrison

I have similar results. Note SoC has some things going for it, 20% more procs with Glyph, a 15-20 dps from a better libram, and it procs more often with haste and gets more damage out of spell power. It has about a 53% proc chance with glyph, so with the higher SP contribution it beats SoB.

However JoB always hits harder, so maybe SoB will become better, or will is the higher spell power is changed.



When I was referring to tests on a boss mob earlier, I was referring to Beta since the dummy is at level 83.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Nicki

Sadly i am too laggy to carry out testing right now...There is something going on here though!

I ran with 96 hit rating against Arlokk 450 attacks i noticed i was getting lag so i quickly decided that my best bet too see if something fishy was going on was too change weapon (Hammer of judgement 22hit-> Kalec sword 0 hit) Immidiately i recieved 2 misses close too each other and was disconnected from the server..

So while you can't hold solid conclusions as you may put it down to RNG its pretty impossible too be certain until I get a miss with 6% hit. Sucks that i can't realisticly test this due to lag.

If its a bug it will be hotfixed if not well we just dont need hit :x

 

Ming

RE: Baked Hit

I'm seeing similar results with approximately 1000 swings on a level 70 target dummy. No question about it, the percentages are too close to 2% miss and fit too perfectly with what one would expect to see with Precision to be anything other than 3% hit coming from some source. It appears that aura and talents have no affect on this and most players report similar findings with no buffs or players around them.

The concern now is to pin down GC on the beta forums and ask if this is permanent and working as intended or some "oversight". It seems that a mechanic such as +3% hit to an entire class just can't be a mistake or artifact from an old talent. Either way we need some answers from a developer if this mechanic is here to stay.

Even if it is temporary and will be reverted in WotLK, there are several pieces gotten from quests and other Northrend sources that would make up for the "lost-again" 3% hit- enough to justify NOT gemming for hit until that time.

 

• frmorrison

This is on Beta with a Draeni (racial 1% hit on melee/spells) on the boss dummy. I used SoR for both tests.

I tested a Holy Paladin with Conc Aura for 800 melee swings with 6.5% hit/7% spell hit and got 10% miss on Holy Shock and ~2% miss on melee attacks, so bosses are working as intended with Holy Paladins.

Then I speced Ret with Ret aura and did another 800 swings. I got a 8% miss on specials and 7.2% on melee, so it seems on Beta there is no ghost hit with SoR up.


Edit: I repeated my test with Ret with the aura up and 800 swings and got 5% miss as long as SoC was up. So I think the mystery is solved at least for me. SoC (I assume SoB too) has banked in hit.

Edit2: I went another 800 swings and got 6.5% miss with SoC up and 12% miss rate on SotR (it must count as a spell). So the hit looks like between 1.5-3% melee/spell hit is being added to hit is having the SoC buff up.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Ming

I was getting the ≈2% miss on a level 70 dummy from auto-attacks alone, for well over 1000 swings. No seals whatsoever. I'm currently doing the same on BETA vs. a level 80 normal dummy and so far, after 600 swings, I'm only missing ≈3.5% of the time. If it's not related to a seal, could it be an actual hit rating and therefore only account for ≈1.5% hit at level 80? (It might be some sort of transitory "booster" to help us close the gap before the expansion pack and to elevate the need to regem- a consolation prize for taking away precision as it were.) I know there is a point that this becomes a non sequitir, but it's interesting that at least on my end, the seal has no effect whatsoever on my miss rate.

I will update the final numbers after a sufficient sampling of at least 1k swings.

Update:

After 1000 swings, no hit rating, no gear sans my weapon and only ret aura, I missed 3.8% of the time against a level 80 non-boss dummy. Taking a flat hit rating increase at level 70 to achieve the 3% lost hit from precision, we would need 47.31 rating. If 32.79 hit rating equates to 1% hit at level 80, this MAY account for the 1.2% increase in hit against the dummy, since 47.31 hit at level 80 comes to roughly 1.27%. Unless of course you consider the 1.2% to be margin of error.

I'm starting to believe that this is just Blizzard's way of helping us transition with the loss of Precision. If indeed it is a baked hit rating instead of a flat percent and it scales with level, then we would have almost 1.3% more base hit at 80. The only way to find out something like that is to have a BETA level 75 paladin conduct similar tests. The additional hit chance at level 75 would have to be close to 2.13% to support this theory.

 

Anauel

I hate to post a contradicting report but I did two tests on the 70 dummy. On both I was naked, no buffs, no auras, no talents; only debuff I had was trick or treated from an innkeeper.

Test1: SoB uptime was 100%.

My numbers were:

413Hits
41Glancing
38Crits
9Miss
21Dodge

Which leads me to an approximate 1.7% miss on 522 hits.

Test2: No seal.

My numbers were:

448Hits
28Glancing
24Crits
9Miss
13Dodge

Which leads me to an approximate 1.7% miss on 522 hits.

I don't know what to say. I got bad RNG? I thought I'd be safe with 500 tries.

 

Khaelarys

Here are my numbers without a seal.

1293 swings, 68 misses. 5.25%

This was me as a naked blood elf, spec 0/5/53, punching, no seals or buffs other than ret aura.

This is what I saw with SoC up 100% of the time.

846 swings, 66 misses (white) 5.67%

Again, me naked, spec 0/5/53, punching, SoC. EDIT: Ret aura here too.

Something fishy in the state of Denmark.

 

Suicidal Zebra

A mysterious gain of 3-4% hit tallies up with my tests. Running my BE Paladin on the Beta, attacking a lvl80 Dummy with a 2-h mace @ 385 Skill (3 levels below) and no other gear I had a miss rate of 5.2% on 1000 swings. This test took place with zero talents and no aura up.

There were similar results utilising a 1-h mace.

I've set up a character copy for a lvl80 Paladin and I'll test things out at the level cap when that goes through. I guess having a non-Paladin melee class such as a Warrior or 1-h Shaman testing their miss rates would be handy too.

It may be that Paladins have had +Hit% baked into talents in some fashion or other, perhaps whilst wielding a weapon or weapon type. Anecdotally, lvl80 mage melee attack miss rate against equal level dummies seem to be as we'd expect (i.e. ~5%).

 

Silvaren

Hi all,

Hope you can help.

What's the reasoning behind RAWR showing Torch to be more dps than Shivering Felspine?
You lose a bunch of attack power, crit and haste by using Torch. Am I missing something?

Thanks!

 

Foxconfessor

Torch is better because it is slow and seal procs aren't normalized (ie always calculated using a fixed number for the weapon speed). Because so much of a paladin's damage comes from active abilities now which all proc seals, the outright dps of your weapon isn't the only factor, and slower weapons gain more when working out your seal damage (assuming the weapon damage is similar, which it is in the case of both these weapons).

I've used both weapons extensively since the patch and this isn't some dry theory, the torch definitely grants higher dps and the difference between seal procs is in the hundreds. Of course, slow weapons aren't automatically the best in any situation, a weapon like Apolyon's better stats and far higher dps mean that it wins out overall even if the amount of damage of each individual seal proc is slightly lower.