• frmorrison

I have respecced twice since the patch and still have Precision's 3% hit.


On Beta, my premade got 1.5% hit from Ret Aura. However, I haven't gone back to see if it was the 3% damage talent (Beta is ahead Live) that gave the hit.

I only did three bosses yesterday with 76 hit and I had 0 misses (although it was only a 0.19% chance of a miss), so if anyone else has sub-76 hit rating and attacks some bosses that would be interesting to see the result.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Redcape

These are the relative weights of stats as calculated by my latest spreadsheet version. Since we don't entirely know our mechanics at this point, here are the things I have used:

JoB 25% return on weapon damage. - May be 45%
SoC not getting spell damage - Is getting currently, seems like a bug
SoR getting spell damage from Sheath - Is not getting, seems like a bug
Crusade giving its old version of crit bonus - changed on beta, but not a big deal
RV giving a dot for 40% of crit damage. - theoretical, based on GC comments
3% ghost hit from Precision??? - change miss and resist to 9/17 respectively if you want to eliminate this

The spreadsheet is ->here<-. It now integrates HoW and Exorcism, as well as providing different inputs for rotations above and below 35% of boss health.

This is a working copy, not a final version. Until we receive final values for our seals and talents it isn't going to be definitive by any means, but if you want to calculate stats at 80 with what we know so far, go nuts.

Approximate stat returns:

Stat/rating % return
Weap DPS 460
Strength 180
Hit rating 100
Crit rating 78
Agility 75
Exp rating 70
AP 70
Haste rating 40
SP 30
Armor Pen 30

These returns are a rough average over all the different seal types, but for those who don't want to bother DLing the sheet, this gives you a rough ballpark. The short version is that ArPen, Haste and Spellpower all suck HARD, Str/AP is insane, and the rest are all pretty good stats.

 

Cayse

I actually didn't have precision pre-patch, and get similar results raiding this week with ~94-101 hit ratings. Whole BT nights without a boss miss on a melee hit, and only a couple from cons/exorcisms that lined up with my hit rating and shadow priest spell hit when I checked numbers.

 

Hidden

My Level 80 Beta Paladin still misses the 80 target dummies with 3.72% hit, so I don't get those 1.5% from Ret Aura for sure. I also specced into every talent improving Ret aura.

 

cleeeeeeeeeetus!

Thanks a lot man, for your work.

 

Khaelarys

I know this sounds sort of dubious, but have you spec'd into stoicism since the patch? I definitely DID have precision before the patch, and now I am not seeing a hit increase that you're describing.

Maybe it's as silly as as long as you don't spec into the new talent at that slot in the tree?

I know. Low % shot. And it's not like you want to find a way to get rid of your ghost hit.

I've seen weirder bugs though.

 

Hidden

I just can't find a logical explanation besides Precision, I can't reproduce this bug on any of my Paladins ((80 BE), 70 BE, 44 Human, 49 Dwarf) - all of them hadn't specced Precision when the patch hit.

 

levk

You should probably base models and spreadsheets on known intended mechanics rather than obscure bugs. It certainly feels this way to me that there will be no +hit talent for ret, anything you get now regardless of how exactly is a bug and will be fixed. May take a while, but I'm confident that it will be fixed.

 

Jourgenson

I ran all of Sunwell and BT this week with 79 hit rating and recorded zero melee misses. Are any other classes seeing a 5% hit cap? I tested this on the boss dummy at level 80 and worked the hit cap out to be 5%. Could it be that this is related to bosses no longer crushing?

 

Amare

Another explanation could be that Misery grants 3% hit you all mention.

The tooltip says "increase harmful spells chance to hit by 3%" but since spellhit and meleehit are the same I wouldn't rule out that it simply gives 3% hit?

 

Suicidal Zebra

Many of these tests (such as the ones I have performed) have been on target dummies without Misery, but it is a good point for those experiencing the inflated hit rate on Live whilst raiding.

 

Rasputin

If I had any sense I would avoid all official WoW forums for the next week so I don't have to scroll through 18 pages of gloating warriors and rogues telling us that we deserved to be nerfed this hard. This set of changes really really hurts us in every facet of the game from solo to 5 man to raiding to PvP. We won't have the mana to even sustain a proper DPS cycle, much less use any of our utility spells. It's very disheartening.

 

◊ Turik

My biggest issue with that is 15% of base mana not being enough to do anything. Why are Paladins the only class that can't go full a DPS cycle without running out of mana?

turik(at)elitistjerks.com

 

flyingtoastr

Just want to nip this in the bud...

I posted that in the Wrath general pally thread.

We can sustain a rotation, it's just gimp DPS and requires us to be fully raid buffed and not use most of our abilities.

Yeah, ret is in major trouble.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Rasputin

Minor nitpick toastr. JoW was nerfed to 1% of mana returned on hit from 2%. Drop 16mps off your totals for a grand total of ~8mps with the bad rotation.

 

Sapp

So with -10% from Benediction, we get 10.8% Divine Storm, 4.5% Judgement, 7.2% Cstrike.

Every 10 seconds we use 1 DS, 1.25 Judgement, and 1.66 Cstrike. So every 10sec we spend 28.4% base mana. With no int on gear, we regenerate 15% * 1.25 + 10 * .25 over the same period, or 21.25% base mana. Meaning we lose 7% base mana every 10sec on average.

So assuming we do nothing but the most plain DPS cycle with no consecrate, exorcism, healing, or even resealing, we'll OOM under the new system in just over two minutes, which is about where we sat at 70 before the changes. Except now we can't potion to sustain ourselves.

JoW is now 1% every 4sec if it procs on cooldown, or 2.5% average per 10sec unit. Divine Plea is 25% every 60sec or about 4% per 10sec unit.

It looks like we'll be just barely under mana neutral with JoW (if we're lucky and it procs on cooldown) and mashing Divine Plea on cooldown. And never heal, or reseal, or consecrate, or exorcise, or have to cast a utility spell.


To The Ground, Baby?

Edit: where are my numbers messed up compared to his? Since I find us going OOM eventually even with an unrealistically conservative cycle with all our mana powers in play.

On Ret paladins:
<Fyr> its like they went from sniffing powdered sugar for 3 years, got real cocaine for 2 weeks, and are pissed that they're going back to the sugar again

 

flyingtoastr

We don't get a perfect 1 DS/1.66 CS/1/25 Judgement every 10 seconds because of cooldown mashups. We spend slightly less mana because of those mashups, though it also lowers DPS.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Sapp

Ah.

The most amusing part of these changes are what it does and doesn't tone down.

Specifically, these changes don't address the OP PvP performance, all our spike is still intact and we can still murder people from inside the bubble with impunity. If these changes go live as-is, we'll still demolish absolutely anyone we want at any time we want in the span of a HoJ. We'll just have to sit down and drink afterwards.

The only thing these influence is our PvE sustained damage, which is about the only part of Ret that didn't need to be tuned down.

On Ret paladins:
<Fyr> its like they went from sniffing powdered sugar for 3 years, got real cocaine for 2 weeks, and are pissed that they're going back to the sugar again

 

Rasputin

Well it also affects our PvP sustained damage, our susceptibility to mana burn and drains, and our ability to heal at all in PvP. We can still put out some damage, we just can't do it for very long and we can't do anything else but put out that damage.

 

Foxconfessor

The damage changes are meaningless to me, I have no experience of beta and have no idea how they will play out at 80. Apart from the natural reaction of less is worse when it comes to my class, I have no opinion either way on these changes.

JotW, however, is a different matter. Having experienced it at 70 over the last 10 days, it has made playing my paladin an absolute joy. It has made soloing feel like soloing on a frost mage or a rogue - effortless, natural, and with few pauses. In raiding, it has allowed me to go all out. I was still shocked how far ahead arms warriors and rogues were in terms of maximum dps output, but at least I could focus on my rotation and squeezing the last bit of damage out without constantly worrying about running dry.

I just can't help thinking about Avitus' signature with the post-replenishment reinstatement of JotW's mana return. 'Success!' Sounds pretty hollow now. In WoW, some changes are not as bad or as good as they seem and can have unexpected side effects; they need to be tested to reach an accurate appraisal. However, this JotW change is about as far as that as can be got. Even a fucking spastic could take a cursory glance at it and call it what it is: a mean-spirited change by a group who continuously and all-too-earnestly proclaim they play and love the game they make while simultaneously demonstrating their remoteness from customers with their misguided belief that having a constant, pervasive desperation for fuel should be the dominant experience of playing a ret paladin.

I'll probably receive an infraction for being so polemical (or whining, in kid speak), but no matter, I probably won't be around here for a while.

 

Hoplight

I was reading over this forum looking for a spreadsheet to test out gear/gem combinations (thanks, by the way), and noticed the questions regarding the hit cap (maybe 5%?), and wanted to confirm that I have also cleared Black Temple and Sunwell (through Felmyst) this past week with 5.09% to hit, with 0 recorded misses from any of my attacks. It looks like either Misery is affecting our attacks as well as spells, or our hit cap has been dramatically reduced.

 

• frmorrison

The best thing about JotW was quality of life (rarely needing to drink).

The new Art of War and RV should be a sustained dps upgrade, I don't know if it makes up for the lower damage Seals.

Maybe the devs want this to be used:
* Glyph of Crusader Strike - Reduces the mana cost of your Crusader Strike ability by 20%.


18 days to Wrath, I hope JotW gets rebuffed.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Ming

Ghostcrawler stated:

Source.

Even by his own admission, PvE damage was proclaimed to be "where it needed to be" on several occasions.

It is quite frightening to think that a community like EJ has a better grasp on World of Warcraft mechanics and consequences than the actual developers. Are the rest of us playing chess while Blizzard plays checkers? I understand that dynamics must change in order to maintain a balance, but wanton nerfs in light of the multiple reassurances sure smell of knee-jerk.

Either way, the nerfs are over-the-top in terms of PvE viability, with JotW being the most egregious. I hate to repeat mantras or seem like an activist type, but I am damned tired of having my PvE abilities and skill sets nerfed for a certain developer's grand eSport scheme. Correct me if I am wrong but in the last 4 years I have played this game, I was always under the impression that 1) this is not a game designed around PvP and 2) PvP balance will not be determined by 1v1 encouters. What is going on here?

 

Sapp

It appears that Hammer of Wrath's activation point has been lowered to 20%, like the other Executes.

On Ret paladins:
<Fyr> its like they went from sniffing powdered sugar for 3 years, got real cocaine for 2 weeks, and are pissed that they're going back to the sugar again

 

Ming

That's ok, I wouldn't have enough mana at 35% to use it anyway.