RV appears to be rolling with itself to some degree. I'm testing by turning my back and casting DS, then if it crits casting Judgement to try and get some consecutive crits without too much combat log clutter. What I got so far was:
So while if crits overrode I should have gotten 4 ticks of ~384, I instead got 495.5. I'm not sure how it's being calculated. What I expected on a roll was [515(the remaining RV damage) + 383.8*4(second crit)] / 4 which would be 512.55. Instead I got 495.5. I'll try to get a few more samples in, but there appears to be some sort of rolling here, and if someone with better math skills wants to tell me what it is, I'm all ears.
by my math I should have gotten 443.85 ticks after the JoC crit. I feel like I'm missing something small here, since I'm losing 12-15 damage on these ticks from what I'd expect. I thought it might be Vengeance stacks, since I had 0 at the beginning of this trial and 2 by the time RV was ticking, but that should inflate numbers instead of deflating them. Thoughts?
RV appears to be rolling with itself to some degree. I'm testing by turning my back and casting DS, then if it crits casting Judgement to try and get some consecutive crits without too much combat log clutter. What I got so far was:
So while if crits overrode I should have gotten 4 ticks of ~384, I instead got 495.5. I'm not sure how it's being calculated. What I expected on a roll was [515(the remaining RV damage) + 383.8*4(second crit)] / 4 which would be 512.55. Instead I got 495.5. I'll try to get a few more samples in, but there appears to be some sort of rolling here, and if someone with better math skills wants to tell me what it is, I'm all ears.
by my math I should have gotten 443.85 ticks after the JoC crit. I feel like I'm missing something small here, since I'm losing 12-15 damage on these ticks from what I'd expect. I thought it might be Vengeance stacks, since I had 0 at the beginning of this trial and 2 by the time RV was ticking, but that should inflate numbers instead of deflating them. Thoughts?
I'm not sure how its working either, but I got a tick rolling for 810 for a while.
My solo dps on the Boss level test dummy over 2 mins was down to 1800~ with great gear on beta. Before these nerfs I was solo dpsing @ 2400~ on the Org Boss dummy.
On another note, I could barely dps for 2 mins without running out of mana, and I only dropped a few consecrates.
It feels pretty lame, because my gear on beta is really nice, but It looks like my DPS will be down 20%ish depending on how many consecrates I can drop.
I just remembered Consecrate was suppose to be the pally's aoe tagging ability. So how much longer would you hold out without it? I say this because it just means tweaking the judgements back up can re-even out your dps.
That's ok, I wouldn't have enough mana at 35% to use it anyway.
I laughed.
Honestly sub 20% HoW is fine; I never understood why it needed to be at 35% when execute was 20. Given the ridiculous crit rate you end up with on how, getting anyone to 35% was a death sentence - especially if multiple paladins were around.
I'm not really sure playing a paladin with a JotW this low is going to be fun on any level. No spot healing, no tossing bops or bofs or salvs.
I feel like I'm going to have to end up farming demonic runes again. Man if I never saw felwood again it would be too soon.
How can a 50% downgrade to an ability even be called an attempt at balance. Give me 17% or something and maybe they can pretend there's some rationale behind the decision.
TBC beta all over again. All kinds of cool things to get you jacked, as release looms everything is scaled and nerfed into non-viability. Was anyone else looking forward to using Holy Wrath in Naxx for the stun to save people? Almost 50% on JoL as well.
Just wow, they did want us playing this spec in raids right?
Yeah dont know what to say. I can understand this change if they go with it until Wotlk. Well all changes except the mana regen nerf. Cause I do too much damage now for sure, but that's just cause they refuse to make ranks on seals and judgements. If we are using lvl80 spells its no wonder we do alot of damage. But then go and nerf us 2-3 weeks before Wotlk hits and we were supposedly balanced, well that's beyond me.
The only reason I can find for this classbreaking nerf is overpopulation of retribution paladins. Everyone plays em now, whether its an alt, change of spec or even rolling new ones. I bet they are desperate to make this class alot less popular, which I guess is what happened the last two times we got nerfed to the ground right after a beta.
The only reason I can find for this classbreaking nerf is overpopulation of retribution paladins. Everyone plays em now, whether its an alt, change of spec or even rolling new ones.
Ah gotcha, as in:
* The Art of War now increases the damage of Judgement, Crusader Strike and Divine Storm by 5/10%. (Old - Increased critical strike damage only, by 10/20%)
Thanks, thought I was going loopy there for a second
I'm pretty speechless. I've been expecting some kind of nerf to our damage for a while now, because there is no end to the complaints I've heard about how Ret is overpowered. I don't think my damage is unrealistic for my gear, but I honestly think the rest of the game's population won't be happy until Ret is once again sub-par dps, which is where I see these changes taking us. The nerf that is the most disheartening to me is JotW. I could have dealt with a simple damage reduction. I don't feel our numbers warranted it, but the spec would still be fun.
I do not play Ret because I love combining the weaknesses of melee with caster's lack of sustainability. This change nerfs every facet of the spec, whether it be soloing, partying, PvPing, or raiding. Granted, it doesn't nerf PvP as much because it nerfed our sustainability MUCH more than it nerfed our burst. Apparently TO THE GROUND BABY wasn't as much of a joke as we thought.
I'm pretty speechless. I've been expecting some kind of nerf to our damage for a while now, because there is no end to the complaints I've heard about how Ret is overpowered. I don't think my damage is unrealistic for my gear, but I honestly think the rest of the game's population won't be happy until Ret is once again sub-par dps, which is where I see these changes taking us. The nerf that is the most disheartening to me is JotW. I could have dealt with a simple damage reduction. I don't feel our numbers warranted it, but the spec would still be fun.
I do not play Ret because I love combining the weaknesses of melee with caster's lack of sustainability. This change nerfs every facet of the spec, whether it be soloing, partying, PvPing, or raiding. Granted, it doesn't nerf PvP as much because it nerfed our sustainability MUCH more than it nerfed our burst. Apparently TO THE GROUND BABY wasn't as much of a joke as we thought.
They did the same to feral druids after TBC hit. Druids went from a complete joke to reasonable, people complained, and instead of just doing reasonable nerfs, they gutted bears, cutting damage by about half, cutting threat, cutting health, cutting armor, and even hitting a talent that mostly was for cat form. (reduced the crit bonus from 15% to 10%, if I remember correctly).
It was so bad, they had to almost instantly hotfix mangle and lacerate, and in the next few patches, stuff progressively got unnerfed. Mangle was rebuffed, and armor on items was increased, making up for the nerfed armor modified.
I thought after their gross overreaction on feral druids, they'd realise that knee-jerk sledgehammer nerfing isn't the way to go. Heck, they hit seals only really used by Prot and Holy. 0_o
"As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgement, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me."
They did the same to feral druids after TBC hit. Druids went from a complete joke to reasonable, people complained, and instead of just doing reasonable nerfs, they gutted bears, cutting damage by about half, cutting threat, cutting health, cutting armor, and even hitting a talent that mostly was for cat form. (reduced the crit bonus from 15% to 10%, if I remember correctly).
It was so bad, they had to almost instantly hotfix mangle and lacerate, and in the next few patches, stuff progressively got unnerfed. Mangle was rebuffed, and armor on items was increased, making up for the nerfed armor modified.
I thought after their gross overreaction on feral druids, they'd realise that knee-jerk sledgehammer nerfing isn't the way to go. Heck, they hit seals only really used by Prot and Holy. 0_o
There was a host of issues behind the bear nerfs, bears were outputting DPS in 5 mans that was comparable to DPS classes (Not all, but some.). A lot of this was because bears operated a lot like how the new "protection" based specs operate (Which is ironic that in one expansion it went from being unbalanced to embraced, but thats an MMO for you.).
Bears returned rage on critical strikes, and their primary defensive stat also scaled their critical strikes%, which in turn gave them more consistent rage back. This allowed bears to stack a stat that both increased their offense and defense, which in the world of TBC tanking was not at all balanced. When you combined this with warriors having huge issues themselves (And protection Paladins, to, but everyone was using Holy because it was so strong.) and druids armor capping from green gear, there by achieving better mitigation than any other tank, even on some crushing based bosses (Again because their dodge was so high from not needing +armor in every slot, there by allowing some +agility/Stam items, even early on)...In short bears were not "reasonable" at all, really, they never went back to "how they were" because it was way too strong.
Now some of the nerfs were a bit overboard and later they were beefed back up, but never to the point they were at before. It was hardly a supreme knee-jerk and was adjusted extremely fast (Literally it took about a month for them to get things tuned.)...Extreme "knee jerk" was the mage damage tax, the things that come from left field and then are never explained.
The problem I have with these nerfs is that the abilities were clearly intended for lvl80, and got nerfed because the healthpools at 70 are so much lower. I highly doubt our burst would have been too crazy at 80, but because of 3.0.2, the whole spec got killed quite dead. I do have to give Blizzard credit for putting together some decent synergy with this batch of nerfs, as they not only dropped the damage of abilities, but also dropped our manaregen so much that we can't even use some of those abilities. A lose-lose for us, if you will.
But we'll see what happens. I'll probably catch up on the theorycraft of some other classes just in case I still won't be able to play a retradin in raids.
There was a host of issues behind the bear nerfs, bears were outputting DPS in 5 mans that was comparable to DPS classes (Not all, but some.). A lot of this was because bears operated a lot like how the new "protection" based specs operate (Which is ironic that in one expansion it went from being unbalanced to embraced, but thats an MMO for you.).
Bears returned rage on critical strikes, and their primary defensive stat also scaled their critical strikes%, which in turn gave them more consistent rage back. This allowed bears to stack a stat that both increased their offense and defense, which in the world of TBC tanking was not at all balanced. When you combined this with warriors having huge issues themselves (And protection Paladins, to, but everyone was using Holy because it was so strong.) and druids armor capping from green gear, there by achieving better mitigation than any other tank, even on some crushing based bosses (Again because their dodge was so high from not needing +armor in every slot, there by allowing some +agility/Stam items, even early on)...In short bears were not "reasonable" at all, really, they never went back to "how they were" because it was way too strong.
Now some of the nerfs were a bit overboard and later they were beefed back up, but never to the point they were at before. It was hardly a supreme knee-jerk and was adjusted extremely fast (Literally it took about a month for them to get things tuned.)...Extreme "knee jerk" was the mage damage tax, the things that come from left field and then are never explained.
Fair enough. I was busy rerolling and leveling my belfadin at the time so my memory was something along the lines of: bears kill people in PvP. People complain about bears. Devs gut bears. Tanking gets hurt in the crossfire.
I still don't really understand the damage tax... Did people even complain about mages?
"As surely as I live forever, when I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgement, I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me."
Mages had a coeficient "tax" placed in the imporved frostbolt / fireball talents, they reduced by 1-5% the spelldamage gain, was reverted late into TBC. Anyway I hope next expansion we start out badly so we are slowlly buffed and thus dont atract attention.
Fixing JotW back to 30% base mana is the most important thing atm. The damage will either get buffed back up or just stay there. The critical part right now is lasting more than 2 minutes.
Just did some raw testing on the beta with training dummies;
with a classic ret build, level80, premade gear, self buffed (BoM); (not using a Crusader strike glyph and not using Divine Plea)
using judgment of light :
4minutes until oom but keeps you healed enough (with solely HoJ, CS, DS, Judgement, Seal of the martyr rotation)
using judgment of wisdom :
10minutes until oom (same rotation, potion healing needed to withstand martyr damage)
6minutes until oom (same rotation, AoW FL healing to counter martyr damage)
with BoW (non-improved) and JoL :
you don't lose mana with a classic rotation
So, in raids with added buffs and spiritual attunement you won't have mana issues even if you throw in AoW FL's and some HoW spam.
Grinding and dungeon seems fine aswel with the option to throw in Divine Plea there won't be much change on that side either.
In PvP however mana is going to be a big issue, which was essentially the point of this round of nerfs, I guess...
Righteous vengeance ticked for roughly 250-300 (every 2-3seconds)
JotW now nets you 660 mana + replenishement effect (14mps) at level80.
With HL costing 1274 mana and FL costing 307mana, it's now far less tempting for Holy paladins =/
Posted on FoH forums, so I take it with a grain of salt. Anyone had a chance to test this yet?
I was just on beta (74), and using just CS/DS/Judge it certainly felt like I had staying power with mana (this is with jow).
If I throw in consecrate, I'm OOM in like >1 minute. I'd assume similar problems would arise when you start throwing in the UD abilities (such as, say in naxx).
I was self buffed with BoM during all these tests.
10/25/08, 4:51 AM
