Hylo

Righteous Vengeance changes was to compensate Divine Storm nerf, not to be used as general excuse for all the other nerfs.

(Emphasis added)
MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Retribution Paladin Changes

 

DdarkDdemon

Don't be so defensive, where did I say I was upset? Really, you're trying to create a fight while there is none. =]
That I disagree with you doesn't have to mean I"m attacking you, nor does it mean that I"m upset.
I have only replied to you twice and you have replied to me once, so there is no still.

A Discussion is an exchange of points of view, why would you exchange your point of view with others if they are the same?

I'm waiting for that answer on my question: you think it's a valid concern if we counter a priests shield wall ability, however it is not a valid concern that priests have been countering our shield wall ability ever since the start of tBC?

 

Xavias

Read my edits for my last 2 posts, it answers both questions you asked.

All I posted was that Ret damage at level 80 in PvP remains a bit too bursty from how it is at level 70 (ie it doesn't diminish at level 80 as much as people believe). The rest was in response to an uproar from a user who replied and disagreed with the numbers.

Brutal Gladiator

 

DdarkDdemon

I"m not rather sure they are aware of the fact that the new righteous vengeance DoT is horrible for PvP.
Resilence affects it three times:
- decreased chance for a crit => lower DoT uptime
- decreased damage done by a crit => lower DoT damage
- decreased damage done by DoTs

Along with the strength and weakness of being dispellable.

I"m rather troubled by all the n''fixes'' like everybody else.
Nex made a nice post about it, I"m not rather sure where though...

 

ildon

I honestly don't see why this is such a big deal. At 70, basically every melee and caster DPS class stacked hit, because it was their highest DPS increasing stat. The few classes that were exempt from this at 70 by getting almost all their hit from talents have (for the most part) been brought in line to value hit as much as anyone else.

Rogues need 9% hit to get their combo points, DK's need 9% hit for their cycles to work, etc. This is normal, not some slight specifically against the Paladin class.

 

pinepepe

i only have access to two wow webstats, but something i've been noticing on live with regards to judgements and mana. With seal of martyr up, i have been judging light and having no mana problems, which im assuming is coming from spiritual attunement but i am not positive, anyone else noticed this? and i am doing a full rotation with consecrate.
Wow Web Stats (bt) I gained 92,000 mana over raid from attunement, over 4k on najentus and over 2k on gorefiend.
Wow Web Stats (hjal) 6k on winterchill, 5100 on anetheron, 3k on kazrogal.

any thoughts are appreciated. and the point of this was to look at an alternative to jow, considering the incoming nerf

 

Tsarin

So, decided to do some testing on the heroic targeting dummy in Silvermoon. Using the beta gear with the 169 dps hammer they give you at 80.


What I discovered in order to do sustained dps over a 30 minute period of time was the following.

Two different methods produced very similar dps results for 3465 AP. 890 dps.

1) Seal of Command/Blood for 2 minutes
2) Judgement of light>DS> CS
3) Seal of Wisdom for 1 minute to replenish mana bar to full when seal of command/blood is up


vs

1) Seal of Command/Blood for 4 minutes
2) Judgement of Wisdom>DS>CS
3) Seal of Wisdom for 1 minute to replenish mana back to full when seal of command/blood is up
4) Seal of Light for 1 minute to replenish health bar for 1 minute (if using blood)


They seem to both over a 30 minute blessing of might produce almost exactly the same dps. 890dps on a level 80 character that isn't required to move.

 

Cevil

890 DPS? Is this at level 80? Right now on Live I'm doing around 1200 DPS to a target dummy. Please tell me you are joking when you say 890 DPS.

 

Tsarin

Nope, that pretty much is what I was doing. This of course is without the nessessary hit. As i haven't altered his gear in any fashion. So. 102 hit. Which means ~10% of my damage is going to oblivion. But even if you were to tack 10% back on the damage I would barely be able to hit 1k dps. This wasn't burst damage but sustained damage. In order for us to do sustained damage now, we must swtich to seal of wisdom for 1 minute after each seal. This brings our mana bar back to full.

 

Hylo

This only underlines the fact that Seal of Wisdom cannot be used to regain mana in any meaningful way in PvE dps. It has been calculated many times and the results are the same: you will gimp your dps further by using SoW than not using it at all (and leaving abilities out to save the mana).

[edit]: Results are not much better if you use "proper" rotation either.

SoB + JoL (+ DS): 1045 dps. I only used DS when I was over 4k mana, DS was 4.2% of my total damage
SoC + JoW + DS: 1070 dps. This was almost mana neutral rotation (I was at 50% mana after 7 mins), DS was 7% of my total damage

During 7 minutes (latter attempt) my mana came from: 76.2% (30984) JotW, 13.6% (5551) Replenishment, 10.2% (4152) JoW

Premade in full premade gear, imp. might and retribution aura used.

 

Imala

RV is bugged on dummies and only tick once. it's working fine in PvE and you can see some pretty huge rolling numbers. We'll have to wait they fix the dummies to make valid comparisons.

 

◊ Kaubel

I'm no longer holding a hammer but rather a shotgun, so you guys better find another fucking tone for this thread, or I'm closing shop and going hunting.

 

Trakor

Look, in pvp, ret got burst because thats pretty much all we got. We havent got ms debuff, we dont have spamable cc, we dont have spell lockdowns, we dont have ways to get to somebody quickly, we dont have ways to get away from somebody quickly, etc.

It's ok to take the burst away if they give some utilities to make up for it. They havent yet.

In regards to pve, at lvl 80, we werent nowhere near the top. Yes, good dps, but not best dps. And since then, Blizzard nerfed DS (from holy dmg to physical dmg), our seals, our judgements, our utility (regen and heals) and worse of all, our regen, which was reduced by more than 50%, and as a result, now becomes a dps pacing mechanism since we cant use the previous rotation, reducing dps even more, simply because we cant use required abilities. Did they give anything to make up for it? No.

I havent had time to test out the new build in beta just yet, but its pretty clear these pvp nerfs will hurt us the most in pve. And not just a little bit. In pvp atm, things are completely unbalanced, but thats because ret dmg scales well with gear (due to several multipliers). Atm for example, i dont even use pvp gear to pvp anymore, because in pve gear, i can judge people in pvp gear for close to 6k crits (using cds + trinkets) and hit them for 3k-4k crits (without counting seal procs) and HoW for another 3.5-4k crit. That said, rogues can kill me pretty fast too. And against locks for example, if bubble, stuns and trinkets are on cd and they fear spam, there isnt much i can do either. Thats pretty much how to handle ret in pvp: keep ret away.

Is it too much burst dmg? Yes, but with this gear, im doing 3.2k dps in sunwell (which again, isnt the highest class dps on live atm), so of course people will die fast. In naxx howerver, the dps is about the same and peoples hp is almost doubled. Do I still hit for around that much at lvl 80? Yes. Do I kill people as fast? No, because while the dmg is still the same, peoples hp is a lot higher. Sure, 1x1 I can still kill people, but in arena howerver, the fact I cant burst people down as quickly means they can get healed back up to full. And this is why at lvl 80, ret was fine. Sure, dangerous, like it should be (instead of fearing a stun lock or ms debuff, you would fear the burst) but not op where we could 2 shot people all the time, specially if they had incoming heals.

Simply said, they are nerfing ret hard because, despite it being ok at lvl 80, its not balanced at lvl 70. The problem is that its gonna hurt us the most in pve, specially at lvl 80. And lvl 80 pvp, we'll have mostly the same problems now, going oom, with no real utility/debuff/support in arena.

Like other people already mentioned here, having to worry about mana as a melee class is a real problem and my main concern. Ret paladins arent casters and having to deal with problems both melee and casters have, does make it a lot less fun. The fun factor is way up there right now, even desregarding the dmg, simply because ret doesnt feel broken anymore, mainly due to jotw.

I personally think they decided to nerf us hard and see what happens, and then they know how much to buff again. Imo, they nerfed it now and they will bring it back up, slowly, to where it shoud be. They said all classes/specs will have competitive dps, and im gonna trust them on that, till I start raiding naxx again. If by then things arent looking good, then i'll QQ a bit as well. But for now, ill just have faith and trust blizzard has planed this out properly.

BTW, beta pally forums seems to be down for me, for a few days now. Are you people in Europe having the same problem?

 

Hylo

Maybe only for those dummies that have 1 hp? On Heroic dummies it seems to be working fine (around 7.5% of my total damage as premade), 103 ticks during 7 minutes.

 

• frmorrison

Regarding Judgements, they actually are melee attacks, however have a special hidden modifier that makes them unable to be dodged or parried.

With the inevitable change to JotW to give less than 33% mana, that may mean hit is even better than Strength (no mana = no dps).


What are Heroic Dummies and where are they?

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Hylo

Silvermoon Farstrider's Square, seen as a lvl80

 

aylen86

I thought you might like this:



Short excursion in german language:
Nahkampf - Melee hit
Siegel des Befehls - Seal of Command
Richturteil des Befehls - Judgement of Command
Kreuzfahrerstoß - Crusaderstrike
Weihe - Consecration
Göttlicher Sturm - Divine Storm
Rechtschaffene Vergeltung - Righteous Vengeance

Stärke - Strength
Beweglichkeit - Agility
Tempo - Haste
Kraft - Attack Power
Trefferwertung - Hit
Kritisch - Critical hit
Waffenkunde - Expertise

A) Level 70 character on live realms: SoC selfbuffed with FCFS system (CS > Judgement > Cons > DS) - 1850 DPS.
B) same character leveled to 80 selfbuffed. Every slot is filled with ilvl 200 epics from naxx10 or badges except the head slot. Wearing Claymore of Ancient Power as a 186.6 DPS weapon. Same 10 minutes - 1750 DPS.
Used SoC in combination with JoW and Divine Plea strictly on CD. There was not much room for consecration and I suspect neither for HoW, Exorcism or Holy Wrath

Besides the huge seal & judgement nerf I don't think that a working RV will compensate our loss of DPS. Last time I logged in on beta realms I was able to pull 2200 DPS with this gear.

 

Devastor

aylen86, your RV-dot only ticked for 1dmg per tick (dummy has 1HP only), so DPS should be higher

/edit says: probably better to test on those dummys, Hylo mentioned (who have "real HP", thus the RV-dot ticking correctly)

 

• Avitus

I don't care much for this argument, but I'd like to clarify the above: I've been on beta since the start and I'm one of the people who came to this conclusion. You need to remember that this line is thrown out in "relative" terms.

-At 70, Ret can spec into all damage increasing talents and immediately has the highest ranks of all attacks ("there are no ranks") that scale fully. (Let alone the argument of massively spiked crit rates in Sunwell/S4 gear that "had" awesome synergy with all the crit damage bonus multipliers at 70).

-At 70, most other classes still haven't maxed the damage talents in their damage trees, neither do they have the highest ranks of their attacks yet.

Basically you're comparing a class ("spec") with end level (80) talents and end level damage abilities to everyone else who's still limited to their 70 stuff. "At 80 this evens out again", this is where that line comes from. At 80 everyone else's burst moves closer to ours. It's no wonder that a Retadin doing Holy damage vs. a Feral with high armor is having more success however ("paper rock scissors"?).

And regardless whether you think at 80 it is (was) still too much, has nothing to do with the correctness of the above conclusion.

Having clarified this, while PvP discussions are not officially off limits here, there is a limit when they take multiple pages of back and forth in a topic that's supposed to be PvE focused, least of all when the whole point is moot considering the latest changes to Ret, so lets drop it here.

 

aylen86

I know this, it's quite obvious by checking the combat log. But I suspect there is no way that a properly working RV will close the gap in our favor. Furthermore there is no possibility to compare our current DPS to an outlook to the future, because Heroic dummys are level 83, not 80.

 

• frmorrison

My mistake, I think of them as the Boss dummy (even though it is not really a boss, it is just a 83 dummy). Also, whenever I see the boss dummy he is at 1 HP, even though he like 10 million health.

It is sad that RV rolling cannot be seen on dummies unless your boss dummy is at full health.


DKs have the same issue with Necrosis.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Yes

I would like to take a second and provide a framework from which we will look at ret paladins in PvP. Sincerely, we are playing a different game Trakor. Ret paladins have always been the hybrid DPS class with a lot of utility. Utility will be defined as something a class can do outside of DPS/Healing to provide a great return per global cooldown then continuing to DPS or heal, Ie the utility of an iceblock when you're at 10% health is immense and hence ice block is a utility ability. Psychic scream has great utility as it is a crowd control spell, and is worth using and can be chained with other classes' CCs for great effect. The point of utility spells is to provide an alternative effect to straight damage or healing that is actually worth more then straight damage or healing.

Now, ret paladins have got quite a lot of it. The most obvious ones are bubble and bop, which often give a get out of jail card both for yourself and a teammate. Blessing of freedom is another spell with great utility, it can be used on classes with junk buffs to mitigate other classes' movement impairing effects and roots. This spell can be used both offensively and defensively, and is such that it is up or active more often then not. It can also be talanted to cleanse stuns, both on others and on yourself. Blessing of sacrifice is another spell that can provide both substantial damage redirection vs some scenarios (Dots, rogues) and of course break the paladin out of CCs. Another utility paladins have is their 15% speed talent, which when combined with freedom and justice makes for a great way to stay on a target. Judgement of justice is another utility paladins have to slow rogues, druids, shamans and other paladins. A major utility that paladins have is cleanse, which gets rid of magical crowd controls and movement impairing effects from rogues and shamans, both on the paladin and his allies. As far as crowd control spells go, ret paladins have the ability to repentance a target, a spell that is very similar to a rogue's blind. Similarly, paladins can choose to spec improved stuns at the cost of some damage to gain a 6/7s long 30s cd HoJ at the loss of some damage (a tradeoff even less then a rogue using CPs on Kidney Shot, since a shorter CD HoJ allows more command judgment crits). HoJ also serves the role of an interrupt and is about twice the duration of spelllocks/pummels as a non-talanted/talanted spell. Paladins have also gained minor instant healing abilities, and minor party mana regeneration.

The above mentioned spells constitute most obvious utility abilities paladins have and each one of them is very powerful. The problem a great number of players have is that ret paladin's damage has gone up so much players can choose to disregard most utility abilities in favor of damage. However, in experienced hands a ret paladin can perform all these utilities in order to maximize his effectiveness. I am not going to argue about the lack of a MS, but every single other point you have made is in reality invalid. Ret paladins have a lot of utility when used correctly (and so do other classes). It is up to players to find uses for spells that do not do damage directly, and I have to sincerely say that you, and many others in this thread do not seem to posses the experience required to judge the PvP metagame. I hope this post helps put paladins non damage abilities in perspective (Please correct me have I made any mistakes). Keep in mind that when doing most effective PvP DPS, a ret paladin has about 18 global cooldowns every minute to use utility spells. This means that about half the paladins GCDs can be spend on utility while doing maximum PvP DPS.

My other main | My PvP Blog

 

Roywyn

The problem isn't that dummies have only 1 HP, it's that they have only 1 HP left.
The heroic dummies have 11 million HP total. But with several people testing, their HP goes down to 1 as well.
And that's where you start critting for 1 point of damage and Righeous Vengeance will tick for only 1 once again.

Heroic dummies regenerate their HP very slowly over time.
The Ironforge/Orgrimmar dummies are very likely at 1 HP, but the Silvermoon/Exodar dummies likely have full health.

Exodar one is near the shaman trainers, behind the moth vendor. Full or nearly full HP when I checked last time.

The Blue Bar and you - the complete Fire Mage 2.4 mana compendium: http://elitistjerks.com/658230-post3191.html

DPS spec and class comparison in Naxxramas gear: http://code.google.com/p/simulationc...i/SampleOutput

And [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] doesn't proc on AM.
Neither does [The Egg of Mortal Essence] since 3.1.

 

Hylo

11 mins test with my main char (full Naxx10-25 gear) in beta on Heroic dummy:



Character screen is totally unbuffed and without aura. Actual test was run with Retribution Aura, Imp. BoM and I judged with wisdom. I also have the SoC glyph.

I was able to sustain the rotation (JoC > CS > DS > [Cons]) infinitelly, but was able to throw in a Consecration only now and then.


@Stardusty below: I don't think we'll raid much in beta anymore - getting any meaningful numbers (other than personal dps) would be hard anyway due to large gear differences.

 

Stardusty

Perhaps one should then question the uniqueness of the utility provided? The main issue with the entire paladin class as a whole is that most of our abilities are baseline, including our utility spells. The spec defining abilities provided to retribution are the 2 melee strikes, a new deep wounds effect, >50% crit on HoW and damage reduction piercing Avenging Wrath. I did not include the talents <20 points deep due to them being reachable by the other specs if desired. The majority of utility provided is no different from having a Holy or Prot paladin. This is why the main perception is that a Retibution paladin specializes in hitting hard exists.

Hylo, will you be testing in a raid environment soon? Would be nice to see a comparison with other classes on where our sustainable dps now stands.