Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 264

Ulthwithian · 10/27/08, 11:15 AM

Redcape: Thanks for parsing the utility of Int. Someone should make a point of showing that to Blizzard, since it shows that their changes are failing. 'no int on gear' has been the mantra for Ret in all of Wrath, and if that's not the case, then Blizzard needs to change something. It's not like they can stop us from using Mail.

Havok: That would be a very interesting change to make. It would be a Paladin twist on the DK/Warrior armor talents. It would keep us in plate, too. Seriously, someone suggest this. (I think 10% would be a better number, but I'm not up on LK armor values.)

Inu · 10/27/08, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Ulthwithian

Redcape: Thanks for parsing the utility of Int. Someone should make a point of showing that to Blizzard, since it shows that their changes are failing. 'no int on gear' has been the mantra for Ret in all of Wrath, and if that's not the case, then Blizzard needs to change something. It's not like they can stop us from using Mail.

Havok: That would be a very interesting change to make. It would be a Paladin twist on the DK/Warrior armor talents. It would keep us in plate, too. Seriously, someone suggest this. (I think 10% would be a better number, but I'm not up on LK armor values.)

I like the idea but it feels a little "cheesed out" since its basically another warrior like talent. If anything i am sure Blizzard is still looking at JoW sinces its the source of the problem and might change it to 20% or 25% but ya those INT numbers might give blizzard a kick in the brain.

Siawn · 10/27/08, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Redcape

This was a brutal nerf. A nerf was justified. I was running around in t5 gear doing double the damage of experienced, skilled warriors in the same gear in 5 mans. I was doing 50% of my group's damage in PUGs when the rest of the group was in badge/t4. I was soloing dungeon bosses and 5 man content in dps gear including pieces of leather with no change in normal rotation aside from spamming instant Flashes. Simply put, ret paladins were ridiculous.

Now, people have been saying a lot of things about how the damage nerf was hefty, and that is true. It isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. The mana nerf is by far the biggest source of complaint though, and I would most like to address that. Our mana in raids is going to be fine. These numbers are not something I made up, but rather the result of putting all the costs of my abilities into my dps spreadsheet using the exact same rotations I was using before where I *ignored* mana costs totally. After a six minute fight of 100% dps time I still had 1500 mana left. This is with using Exorcism, Consecrate, CS, DS, Judge, and HoW as fast as cooldowns allowed. Our mana is MUCH tighter than before, but our ability to maintain a completely full on dps cycle is not threatened at all. Aside from sub20% where HoW drains mana quite quickly, mana is in fact completely sustainable even with Exorcism and Consecrate in addition to the regular strikes.

If you look closely you will note that mana is dropping by 8/sec using a full on dps rotation without HoW, but with Exorcism and Consecrate. You need to drop one Consecrate every 100 seconds to get that to zero expenditure at all, so this rotation is 100% sustainable. Now, this does assume a Blessing of Wisdom, so you actually might need to only cast Consecrate every 16 seconds if you don't have that.

Our dps ends up being reduced by roughly 10% by this change. This is obviously a nerf, but it honestly does not deserve all the wailing and tooth gnashing we have seen. My dps was hilariously high before these changes, I cannot imagine that it will bad at all after a 10% hit.

I pared down the above to the few points that I wanted to address.

First, I find it hard to believe that you were literally doing twice the damage of equally skilled/geared warriors in a 5 man, unless they were not even trying. In the five mans I run, I'm generally ahead by a fairly large margin. The reason for this is that five mans cater to Ret's strengths at the moment. The only thing limiting our dps is our cd's. In 5 man content, your cd's are up at the beginning of each pull, and our burst is such that our initial flurry of damage usually kills whatever was pulled. This, combined with the fact that we are using Con and DS to hit every mob in the pull at once is what makes it seem like our damage is out of control.

To get a balanced view of Ret's damage, look at the numbers from a single-target boss fight. You'll find that your lead is either much more slight, or that you are actually being beaten by other classes of equal skill/gear. The WWS I have seen recently do not show any parses where Ret is number one on a given boss. On Hyjal trash, I will admit, we have a distinct advantage. In all fairness, trash simply does not matter. It will die regardless of what class makeup you have. The fact that GC even mentioned a Hyjal parse as a source that confirmed Ret's damage being imbalanced makes me wonder what other skewed comparisons are being used for Ret's damage.

I agree that the majority of the discontent over these changes is due to the JotW nerf. I myself care much less about the damage nerf. I didn't roll Ret to top meters, I rolled Ret because I really liked the idea of a holy warrior with a nice mix of melee and holy damage. Well, that and I'm a hybrid addict. What frustrated me beyond belief all through BC was that Ret was so mana dependent. Any kind of extended fight and I was forced to pop mana pots just to keep from going oom. I spent most of BC raiding as Holy simply because it was nearly impossible to justify bringing a Ret Paladin when our dps was marginal at best. I've done the raids where I was popping mana pots every time they were up, having other pallies keep JoW up on the mob, etc.

Having to focus all of my energy on simply not going oom is not a challenge to me. It is an irritation. I have no such issues on my Enhancement Shaman. Even with the nerf to Shamanistic Focus, and the addition of Maelstrom Weapon, it is still possible to keep up my entire damage rotation on my shaman without having any fear of running out of mana. Better yet, Shamanistic Rage scales with gear, so the better the Shaman's gear becomes, the less mana becomes an issue. So apparently Blizzard does not have an issue with Enhancement Shaman having "infinite" mana. My only question is why it is suddenly an issue when Ret gets a similar ability? You say its enough that we can sustain our most basic damage rotation, and "hopefully" not run out of mana doing it. Other numbers I've seen people run seem to indicate that our damage is not sustainable. Time and live testing will tell.

My opinion on the matter is that we should not be dependent on other classes to sustain our own dps. We should not "require" BoW, or Mana Spring just to be competitive. Especially with the new 10 man raids, I think creating this kind of dependency for Ret when these options are not always going to be available is a gross mistake on Blizzard's part. I do not want to spend all of my time raiding praying that I don't run out of mana before the boss dies. I did that in one expansion. I'm not doing it again. Let me make it clear that this is not any kind of attack on your methods or opinions, but simply pointing out my own opinions and observations on the subject.

eclipse212 · 10/27/08, 12:01 PM

am I seeing things? my base mana at 70 is 3978, jotw currently returns 974- mana. that´s not 33% but more like 24.5%...?

edit: nvm I forgot to substract the mana from int

Hylo · 10/27/08, 12:09 PM

You are calculating your base mana wrong. Paladin base mana is 2953 at lvl70

2953 * 0.33 = 974

Inu · 10/27/08, 12:33 PM

Fuuny how haste = more damage and less mana for casters.
But for ret it = more damange and more mana.
Is this taken into consideration into finding the value of haste now?

Fqubed · 10/27/08, 12:36 PM

From a PvE point of view I think we can all rest fairlly assured that they will "fix" what is needed so we can keep up an infinite rotation without outside help. Afterall we cant expect every 10man to have a shaman drop spring and to have a second pally to give us BoW. Blizzard thinks we should do x dps on a single target 5 minute fight. They will adjust us to that point, I dont think we should fret too much over it.

Although pointing out the value of int on gear is a great way to make a point of just how "stupid" the current situation is.

On the PvP front we are just ticking to OOM, if for whatever reason we are burned twice or stung/silenced for any duration we become useless. I wont coment on the continued use of a war or rogue, as they have no problem on a 2 minute arena match or a 2 hour one.

Enh Shamans the class we are most "similar" to have no issues in arenas from mana to maintain a full dps rotation. Neither do feral druids (They should go up with rogue and war who just "forget" about the rage/energy bar, aside from making sure they have enough for Kick/pummel) Instead we get to watch our manabar slowly go down (JoW wont last on any target for any reasonable regen, aside from dodge/miss/parry/outofrange).

Basically for PvP we had two things going in live, Infinite mana, and insane burst. They wanted to take away burst so we dont kill someone in a single stun combo. I think we all agreed it was too high. Fine burst on par with war/rogue, we now have a holy warrior who uses mana as an energy mechanic, but cant burst someone down in one round. We also lack any reasonable snare, healing debuff, interrupt. But we can do decent dps forever. I think noone would be too sad here, a few assists from your partner in 2v2 and you get a kill.

Now you take away infinite mana AND burst. We now have a timer from the start that points to a loss in 8 minutes. No way around it. If you eat a manaburn reduce the timer by 1 minute. Keep in mind if we have to for any reason throw a few heals we also kill a few minutes of "game time" So now the metagame is pair yourself up with someone who can disable/burst so you can kill in one combat round. Partners are now, Frostmage, Rogue and perhaps Boomkin.

So the pendulum of balance in sways away from us again. I really dont see what was wrong with 30% JotW.

Rasputin · 10/27/08, 12:42 PM

Why do you assume they will fix us for PvE and not for PvP? They don't have an amazing track record of rushing PvE viability fixes to live for anyone, much less Paladins. If they did mages wouldn't have been languishing in obscurity for all of Sunwell and Holy Paladins wouldn't have been sidelined. I think a better assumption is that they will leave us alone unless we present them with calm and overwhelming evidence that we are not fine. The same holds true for PvP of course, but that is a secondary concern for me.

At this point, we're going live like this. I highly doubt they're going to hotfix buff us before Nov 13 after the last two weeks of steady downward adjustment. The thing to do is to get to 80, start raiding, and start getting some real numbers out there. Who knows, maybe we actually will be fine and hover around 5% below those rogues and mages and hunters. I don't think it's entirely likely, but it's possible. Beta is dead enough that we won't have enough numbers to present until Live, so that's where we'll have to make our case.

In any case I really don't think sitting back and assuming that they'll fix us is the right way to go about things for PvE or PvP.

Brick · 10/27/08, 12:48 PM

The problem with the initial mana return of JotW is it's non-scaling. At 70 your base mana is 2953, and will always be 2953. So currently JotW has an immediate retun of 974 mana, which will be changing to 443 in 3.0.3. Right, we're all well aware of this.

We can add INT which gives us a larger initial mana pool and buffs the effect of Replenishment, since that 2.5% of total mana over 10 seconds will scale with our mana pool.

I think a concern Blizzard has here is Replenishment. JotW does has a scaling component, but it currently affects the entire raid. You can't directly buff Replenishment without ultimately increasing raid damage, in which the result may make a retribution paladin more desirable than a shadow priest (something Blizzard has stated is a concern).

How's this for a compromise?

Reduce Judgements of the Wise to a single talent point. It works exactly as the 3-point version does.
Create a new 2-point talent called Improved Judgements of the Wise that increases the benefit of Replenishment for the Paladin that performed the Judgement that created the Replenishment buff (so you won't get increased returns from another Paladin's Replenishment), by some coefficient of a stat we expect to scale over time -- Strength.

Unfortunately that may not completely address other concerns, but I think this is a huge step in the right direction which in conjunction with other tweaks, provides the foundation for a viable solution.

Inu · 10/27/08, 1:20 PM

They could make our 2 point Improved Judgement talent reduce the mana cost of judgements so it in the end only costs 1% mana base. This would be roughtly what 50 mana? This way we arent completely screwed in pvp our mana would be fine in PvE, would help holy AND prot alot.

Although i dont think Blizzard is really in the business of giving classes near highest source of damage a very low resource cost.

Sapp · 10/27/08, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Fqubed

Enh Shamans the class we are most "similar" to have no issues in arenas from mana to maintain a full dps rotation. Neither do feral druids (They should go up with rogue and war who just "forget" about the rage/energy bar, aside from making sure they have enough for Kick/pummel) Instead we get to watch our manabar slowly go down (JoW wont last on any target for any reasonable regen, aside from dodge/miss/parry/outofrange).

Enh shamans classically have crippling mana issues in PvP, less so in PvE. A large part of their solution came from making them value hunter gear with int itemization, though, backed up by a talent that turned their int into AP.

It's a different situation and a different profile of mana use.

Brute · 10/27/08, 1:37 PM

Originally Posted by Sapp

Enh shamans classically have crippling mana issues in PvP, less so in PvE. A large part of their solution came from making them value hunter gear with int itemization, though, backed up by a talent that turned their int into AP.

It's a different situation and a different profile of mana use.

And you certainly dont want to compare yourself to feral druids either for arena purposes, since you'll probably be seeing less feral druids @ 80 arena than you see now at 70 due to their crippling mana problems...

Nicki · 10/27/08, 1:40 PM

Originally Posted by Redcape

Is your warrior abusing the DW bug? If so, throw his results in the bin, they aren't going to continue. I was playing with a t5 geared warrior using TG who really knows how to play and I was destroying him by an immense margin.

Titans grip is very bad atm so i don't know what the point of your comparison between 2 role switching classes is when one doesn't have anywhere near enough gear too make titans grip viable. Arms however is competitive with ret.

• Astrylian · 10/27/08, 2:04 PM

Originally Posted by Brute

And you certainly dont want to compare yourself to feral druids either for arena purposes, since you'll probably be seeing less feral druids @ 80 arena than you see now at 70 due to their crippling mana problems...

Actually, we got our own version of JotW; 8% of max mana returned every time we crit (6sec cooldown).

Anauel · 10/27/08, 2:17 PM

MMO-Champion has a continuation to GC's original post on Ret nerfs. It's really quite a read and, it may be naïve, but I'm still optimistical about the class. One thing that I'd like to emphasize is this:

Why did I describe our initial attempts to nerf Ret as surgical?
Because that's what we tried to do. In retrospect, we were so worried about nerfing Ret too much that we ended up not fixing the problem. We should have done more sweeping changes initially.

Why did we say Ret was fine for so long?
Because we didn't want to have to nerf the spec. Ret players were having fun. We thought and hoped that some well publicized bugs were to blame for the excess damage. As I've said, if I wait to post until we're absolutely 100% certain, you're just not going to get as many posts. Many posters have said they appreciate getting occasional developer communication and insight. But that is going to come with some risk that things are going to change. As I said, I'll caveat it more in the future.

I would really like to believe this to be true. I do think they didn't want to repeat what happened in BC.

--

One of the main problems that we're having regarding sustainability is consecration. As GSH and others mentioned, we can't sustain it with this new JotW. What I'm thinking, though, is that we don't have to spam it anymore. RV should pretty much fill in cosecration's gap. Some of the logs that I've seen around seem to confirm this. RV is doing around 700 or so per tick, which is the equivalent of 3 consecrate tics. This, coupled with the fact that we can still use consecration sparingly should really help us pick up some of the lost dps.

On this same topic, I've been going around Redcape's spreadsheet and, with paladin-only buffs (JotW, Replenishment, no BoW, Dplea), our theoretical time to oom is around 900 seconds (15 min) without consecrate (using CS, DS, Judgement). If you start using consecration you go from 900 seconds to 80. So I guess you can all put Consecrate out of your commonly used keybindings, at least for 5man, pvp, 10 mans in which you don't have a shaman.

What really has me worried though, now that I see that sustainability will not be a problem as long as you don't use consecrate, is the nerf to our seals. As some have posted, the logs show us at the middle of the pack, which isn't what I had in mind when they said "Hybrid dps should be approximate to pure DPS." I'm hoping they revert the seal nerf.

I think we'll be fine. We just have to adapt to this new playstyle.

Gomba3333 · 10/27/08, 2:23 PM

So I wrote up a nice 2.5 page long essay about retribution paladin and the current issues with the class, I don't know what good it will do, but would anyone here be interested in reading it or providing sources to strengthen the arguments within?

Chances are, it will never get used for anything, but as an exercise in persuasive and proposal writing, this disaster scenario is the perfect thing to get some practice from.

Balog · 10/27/08, 2:25 PM

I think it's a bit odd that GC stated that hunters are OP, but nothing is done. Ret OP? "Oh my God nerf 'em quick!"

So has anyone on beta actually done any testing with the new nerfs? I understand beta is pretty dead at the moment due to the holiday content.

My interest in ret is primarily as an off-spec for leveling, so I lack the emotional investment many people have on the subject. Does anyone have any data on how the nerfs will affect solo play?

Siawn · 10/27/08, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Anauel

RV should pretty much fill in cosecration's gap. Some of the logs that I've seen around seem to confirm this. RV is doing around 700 or so per tick, which is the equivalent of 3 consecrate tics. This, coupled with the fact that we can still use consecration sparingly should really help us pick up some of the lost dps.

The problem with assuming RV damage will make up for the damage we lose from not having the mana to use Consecrate is that RV's dot was put in to replace the loss of the bonus critical strike damage on Divine Storm and Judgment. It's the same damage, just turned into a DoT. As such, I really don't see how it can be pointed to as a way to make up the damage we lose from Consecrate.

• frmorrison · 10/27/08, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by Balog

My interest in ret is primarily as an off-spec for leveling, so I lack the emotional investment many people have on the subject. Does anyone have any data on how the nerfs will affect solo play?

The nerfs do not affect soloing, since creatures die so fast you don't need to Cons. However, it would affect Ret trying to heal (less mana back from JotW) and 5 mans (you will have to drink between pulls).

What is interesting is Glyph of SoR makes your Retribution spells cost 10% less mana, so that Seal may pull ahead for sustained damage.

Pulout · 10/27/08, 2:49 PM

One, what's the new best dps rotation for sustained boss fights in terms of maxing out my damage without ooming a minute into things. The other question that I have is if Rawr will be updated to reflect that hit is now greater than strength. Is torch still on top or is haste better again? I'd anticipate that haste and weapon damage may not be as garbage a stat as they were before since our rotation will likely be a lot looser without having to spam consecrate or any other filler spells. Is this correct?

Mordekhuul · 10/27/08, 3:05 PM

Confirmation here that Ghostcrawler does, indeed, think that our DPS should consist primarily of non-consecration spell use.

I don't hear anyone defending the rogue who was low in a lot of these fights. You have to make a lot of assumptions that all of these players had equivalent gear and skill in order to have the expectation that this paladin should be in the top 5. Someone said this was a very skilled paladin, so I guess we'll have to take your word for that.

The use of consumables, especially things like Dark Runes is interesting. It's too bad we can't calculate what his dps would have been without the consumables. You don't gain that much mana from the consumables, but as you point out, it could make a difference.

Consecrate is a very mana-intensive spell. I'm not sure I would use it except when tanking or in a mana-rich situation. Many if not all classes have abilities that they know are not damage efficient for their cost. Sometimes you want to use these anyway depending on the situation.

There does seem to be a consensus that in an undead dungeon, every Ret pally should be at the very top of the charts. Is that what you're arguing? Oops -- I meant to add that Exorcism + Holy Wrath was about 6% of his damage, though he would have spent some of that mana on other things if there had been no undead.

[ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]

Thorin · 10/27/08, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by Balog

I think it's a bit odd that GC stated that hunters are OP, but nothing is done. Ret OP? "Oh my God nerf 'em quick!"

So has anyone on beta actually done any testing with the new nerfs? I understand beta is pretty dead at the moment due to the holiday content.

My interest in ret is primarily as an off-spec for leveling, so I lack the emotional investment many people have on the subject. Does anyone have any data on how the nerfs will affect solo play?

TEST: New Build Naxx Pass by a high ranking guild with a skilled Ret Pally ending up 10th in DPS meters:
Post 9138 build Nax WWS Parse (Ret Fails)
Solo wont affect you much, except for lower damage to mobs, and less mana gained, but as other posters mentioned, it won't be considerable, instancing though, will cause you troubles and well..."LOLRET's back"

Balog · 10/27/08, 3:20 PM

I'm not overly worried about instancing; my primary spec is prot so I'd imagine finding groups won't be terribly difficult.

I'm thinking of ret as the "Oh crap for this quest I have to kill a bunch of widely dispersed caster mobs; better flip to ret for a bit." I know the tanky gear isn't ideal for it, but with the change to itemisation with +str on everything it should be much less painful switching back and forth.

Honestly I'd prefer to go prot/holy as I love healing, but gathering two totally different gear sets while leveling seems like more trouble than it's worth.

Edit: Oh, and if Blizz really wants to eliminate "lolret" they are most definitely doing it wrong. The question to me isn't whether or not ret will be competitive right out of the gate. It's whether Blizz will wait another full expansion cycle to try to fix it again.

Has ret ever been competitive on live? I started playing when BC came out, so lolret is all I know.

Fqubed · 10/27/08, 3:25 PM

Seeing as this parse is getting considerable feedback from GC could we do a bit more analisis on why each class is where it is?

Balog · 10/27/08, 3:31 PM

Originally Posted by Fqubed

Seeing as this parse is getting considerable feedback from GC could we do a bit more analisis on why each class is where it is?

I wouldn't count on it; GC appears to be putting ret on the ignore list.

MMO-Champion BlueTracker - Thank you

What I hope the paladin community understands is I did try and spend a lot of time in this forum over the last couple of days. But that came at the expense of 9 other classes who probably feel pretty neglected about now (not to mention the PvP, tradeskills and raid forums). Just try and keep that in mind if I have to spend a lot of time with another class soon. I just about reached my capacity for reading threads yesterday. I can't do that personally in every class forum regularly.