Raggsokk

The new changes to JoW will reduce my manaregen by almost 400 MP/5 when they take effect. Maybe more as I haven't calculated in the cooldown of the procs. (Assuming 7500 mana buffed).

Doubt you'll be able to come out of much fights with 100% mana pool while using more abilities than the standard rotation after that.

 

Redcape

In fact I should be using 12k for my armor value. That was something I must have lost in the process of copying various things together. I will get that fixed.

It is expressed as a %. Since mobs take more damage below 20% I guessed 19% for the amount of time below, but it might be as low as 17%. I really can't see a 20% raid damage increase, where would that be coming from? Even paladins spamming HoW don't get quite that much, and lots of classes get less. In addition, you are more likely to have people dead or running on fumes at that point, which lowers rdps. I suppose timing a Heroism for that point would help, but that isn't necessarily true. Anyway, I have changed my internal copy to 18%, but ymmv.

The glyph makes it a 10 second cooldown, so a 10.5 second delay is entirely possible. That is what I got when I built my rotation.

I found Archimonde to be one of the most melee friendly fights in TBC. Our melee always delivered massively more damage than ranged because they spent the vast majority of their time in full burn mode while the ranged were kiting Doomfires. As far as I understood it that was normal for guilds, do you really find that your melee suck on Archimonde regularly?

 

◊ Lord BEEF

You crit a lot more in PvE than PvP due to resilience somaking JotW crittable wouldn't be good.

I think adding some mana burn protection into an existing ret talent would make better design.

 

Anauel

I actually made that comment before I'd read a couple reports that stated that there's not much of an issue at 70 regarding mana. I believed Redcape's theorycrafting, but nothing beats a hands-on experience.

Regarding mana burns... the problem with it is that it affects Ret the most from all the Paladin specs and giving Righteous Fury a mana burn protection would be a huge buff to Holy PvP (not that they don't need it, just that it'd be worth considering the repercutions). I'm leaning more towards a deep ret talent or what they proposed earlier, which would be having low-duration debuff on yourself every time you deal damage with a special that reduces the mana cost of our offensive abilities by a good chunk.

 

Corronach

The classes that can mana drain also can dispell (except warlocks) which is another reason Righteous Fury wouldn't quite work without a corresponding ability to make it unable to be dispelled.

 

yamamoto

WWS from tonight's Sunwell:

http://wowwebstats.com/tgimnlkdlm1pq

I will do some number crunching in a bit and attach them to this post

 

Arthaal

Just a quick look over your Brutallus numbers: is it me or is the crit rate on all your instants simply insane?

* 50% AA crits
* 60% CS
* 60% DS

While conversely, Judgements only reached 34% (which we'd expect higher with 5/5 fanaticism)?

Percent modifiers R'US

 

djkillingspree

I had a similar experience with Council/Illidan last night (assuming that the 443 mana JotW is the nerfed value). I never ran out of mana spamming every ability I had whenever they were up, including Consecrate, Exorcism and the occasional AoW'ed FoL. This is in terrible (t4 w/ Gorehowl) gear. Granted those are both fights with environmental damage but still.

I think that the mana return from Spiritual Attunement via SoB and especially JoB is pretty fantastic. I figure per judgement you can add another 50-100 mana from Spiritual Attunement at my current level of gear when raid buffed, and that *will* scale with AP.

 

Foxconfessor

WWS includes the backlash, which can't crit and in turn lowers the percentage. That's why his SoB damage average is 222 as well.

 

Selenia

I did the exact same thing on my BE pally.

Basic rotation, JoL, SoB. I have no extra int on my gear.

Went OOM and was unable to re-judge after 4 minutes, 33 seconds.

As to all the comments about full mana in raids.. were you operating with multiple JoW on your target? When I had two JoW up on my target, my manabar didn't move no matter what I did. The difference is enormous.

 

Hylo

Your "terrible" gear is actually much better for longevity than our lvl80 gear will be because it has int (quite a lot of it too).

It's really a big shame that JoW is still bugged. I wouldn't make any sweeping conclusions before we have properly working JoW in our hands.

Here for example, check "All Bosses":

Judgement of Wisdom 50,254 Mana
Judgements of the Wise 37,651 Mana

Seems abnormally high to me.

 

Lunkhedd

That was the intent, actually. Anauel's argument was that to be balanced, Ret paladins need higher mana regen in PvE than in PvP. If you have another perspective, I'd love to hear it.

The tradeoff there is that then Protection paladins won't have access to it for tanking, which was my ulterior motive. I agree that giving significant mana burn protection to Holy paladins could be problematic, but all the Holy paladins are claiming they need something to help in PvP, and it'd be more creative than giving a Mortal Strike debuff to Holy Shock or the like. For a Ret-only solution, something like mana burn feedback in Eye for an Eye seems more in-character than a protective ability.

 

• Vinsent

The issue that I see with JotW in PVP is not sustaining, its recovering, from reports it seems that JotW is doing a fine job of sustaining. Just once tapped out, you have nothing to do.

My suggestion would be to have JotW scale like aspect of the viper used to. Have it be a big bump when your mana is low, (say 30% at oom) but scale down when your mana is high (say 10% at full mana). This will allow burns to slow us down but not cripple us.

My 2 cents.

 

Selenia

On current live it certainly seems to me that it's not so much JotW sustaining as it is either one or multiple bugged judgements of wisdom doing that job.

Again, I went OOM from a basic rotation in 4 minutes, 33 seconds when I was solo-testing.

When I tested with one friend on the Shadows of Doom for the Scourge Invasion event and we had two JoW up at once, my mana didn't move no matter what I did and how many abilities I spammed. I could even toss Holy Lights and my manabar would be at full in -seconds- after I started attacking again.

Look at the WWS above.

On "All bosses" for Yamamoto, JoW has more procs than the total number of attacks made and has generated a ton more mana than JotW.

 

Fenwe

I also noticed similar mana consumption results when I got pulled into a Sunwell raid for Felmyst, I was 2nd on damage meters (2k total dmg behind a skilled warrior) and never had any issues spamming concecrate, holy wrath, divine storm, and exorcism (with wrath and exorcism being used during the aerial phases).

Also, during the gauntlet, I did notice that my mana started to trickle off somewhat but I never actually went OOM although it did get close toward the end and I switched to judging wisdom instead of light.

 

Redcape

For those that really, really want to be up to date I have corrected 3 small bugs/issues with my spreadsheet I put up this morning. Thus, here is version 1.81

Ret_dpsv1.8.1-Live.xls - FileFront.com

I would spend more time being perfect, but with our core mechanics changing twice a week I figured I should put out new data every time I think I have it pretty much done.

-Standard armor value fixed.
-SoB % fixed
-Time spent below 20% reduced to 18%.

 

Rasputin

JoW is indeed skewing all our results. It is planned to be reduced by some 75%(50% reduction in both power and frequency), so its current power negates mana issues, providing 116% the regen that JotW does in my own parse from tonight(Wow Web Stats if anyone cares to see it). I'm not sure what testing the devs are hoping to see from parses like this or in PvP when arenas are completely lagged and very few people are queueing, but I made a thread and posted my parse anyway on the Beta boards.

 

• frmorrison

Taking into account that WWS and possibly Recount adds the Backlash damage into your dps, that may change things up for the best Seal for me, unless that is wrong.

On live killing all the BT bosses with 4.9% hit and only having 5 misses on bosses, the Ghost 3% hit from Precision is still there as well as 1% hit from Ret Aura. On Beta the 1% hit from Ret Aura is removed.

I used the FCFS rotation never had an mana issue unless I died and got rezzed less little mana left.

DK - Ashbane Failure is the condiment that gives success its flavor.

 

Cayse

I had pretty much the same results in BT tonight as well, 106 hit (pre-patch I didn't have precision) and only 4 white misses (.5%), mana tonight wasn't even an issue going full out, nonstop and not being below half mana at the end of ~3 minute bosses, with no shadow priests, no survival hunters and for some reason not getting any mana from mana spring. Mana gained from JoW was 13% of my incoming mana, JotW was about 40%. I was judging light and two prots were judging wisdom. I held pretty much even with a frost mage on dps, fighting over top boss damage.

 

Anauel

So you're not the first one to mention it, but the first one that said it explicitly. JoW stacks? Wouldn't the nerf negate the 50% reduction if you had 2 pallies judging wisdom?

 

• Avitus

This might sound harsh, but I'd like to point out that anyone with "any" int on their gear should definitely keep that fact in mind and make sure to understand that their results are more or less irrelevant.

Wearing a full set of T6 for example would net you 127 Int.

127 Int = ~2.1k mana after BoK so your unbuffed mana pool is about 150% of what it should be (base is <4k).

This means that all percentile mana regen is giving you 150% of what you should get: Replenishment is netting you an additional 10.5 more mana per second, JoW is netting you an additional 21 mana per proc, if you should be so lucky and get Mana Tide it will give you an additional 504 mana.

These numbers might not sound large, but considering the relative size of our base mana pool and how often they proc, they are significant. (Obviously at 50 mana per proc 2-piece T6 bonus is also a fairly strong bonus that we can't rely on indefinitely.)


Just saying, if you have int on gear, your results are going to be severely skewed. (This is not to say that I think full rotations are unsustainable without int on gear, that's something to be established at 80).

 

Foxconfessor

WWS includes backlash on the breakdown, but excludes self-damage from your actual total damage/dps, so those numbers are clean and accurate. It has a seperate total for self/friendly damage.

I had 45int including stats enchants earlier, and you're right, this definitely skews it a little. However, the t6 bonus really skews it just as much. I was actually for the first time in ages looking closely at how often it procs earlier, and it's not unusual to see two or even three 50 mana procs up on the scrolling text at once. As I stated earlier, it was the difference between an indefinite non-consecrating cycle and going oom after 6 minutes, judging light. Of course, it might be possible to wear 2 parts t6 at level 80, but once Blizzard realise people are doing this they will kill the set bonus like they always do, and rightly so, because no-one honestly wants to have to wear old gear.

 

Milou

The only int I have on my gear is from +14 to all stats from chest/rings. Tonight in Sunwell I had 0 mana issues maintaining an aggressive cycle with full consecration, excorcism and holy wrath. I do have the consecration glyph. We stopped after M'uru but I was more than happy with my dps overall, 3288 on Brutallus and generally just behind deep wounds warrior. BM hunter with the thori'dal was smoking everyone by 500+ dps on every fight except felmyst. I was back to using seal of blood obviously after the changes.

 

• Arikah

Alright, here are my stats from the night: WWS Loading...

To clear up some variables:
- Used my normal rotations, complete with heavy "burn skills"; consecrate, how, exorcism, holy wrath.
- 2 paladins, holy was judging light, I was judging wis
- The only piece of gear with int on it is my chest, as well as +14 int from enchants (45 int total, i have roughly 5800 mana raid buffed)
- I have the t6 2pc bonus of course
- Did NOT have blessing of wisdom at any time
- Did NOT use any mana based consumables; i went with the standard str food, haste potion, assault flask
- I don't have the consecration glyph equipped because I find myself pvping more than i pve these days

Throughout the night, the only time I ever felt pressured for mana was when we were aoe'ing trash - i would dip to about 20% mana, but everything would be dead, so we'd all be drinking anyways. On bosses mana was never an issue, and this may well be due to the bugged jow we have on live now. I tried using jol on KJ attempt #1, and found myself at 50% mana in less than 25 seconds (in other words, this is our mana situation without jow up from anyone at all)... it was so bad I had to pull jow back from my secondary bar onto my primary bar while in combat. My damage output was as expected when I was using my heavy burn cycle (I get a free gcd every 35s or so with my cycle), quite respectable as i'm used to (in 2.4.3 I would average 2400dps on brut, ~5th position). If i were unable to use my normal cycle I would lose 21% of my damage output, which is huge... but the fact is that, for now, we can still burn cycle fairly efficiently. If we are really going to lose about 75% effectiveness from jow, then I can see mana troubles occurring frequently... if KJ attempt 1 was any indication of how that will feel, it sucks. Hard.

Oh also... tonight I ran with 130 hit rating, approx 1% under the cap, and WWS reveals that my ghost hit from the old precision has apparently vanished. Funny, I don't remember seeing any misses tonight, but the data indicates that there were a couple. I'd like to ask anyone reporting ghost hit if they have respecced today, as I did.. perhaps the ghost precision is removed if you respec?

 

eclipse212

I can confirm most reports from a 5/10man perspective. I didn´t get to raid 25mans since the change to 443mana/judge, but had groups for 4 or 5 heroics and a ZA. I don´t have 2t6 and my total int on gear adds up to 24. and I used JoL throughout as the current JoW does in no way reflect anything they have announced for it (still 2% return, high proc rate), so I wanted to avoid abusing it for testing purposes.

I was kinda worried to begin with so I didn´t try and push it from the beginning, but after I haven´t really seen my manabar move throughout half a heroic, I went back to my Judge>Consecrate>CS>DS faceroll and didn´t run into mana problems at all.
this doesn´t mean that my bar didn´t move - it means that I had enough of it to happily spam all I had and was close to being oom by a time I could afford sitting and drinking for a moment.

of course, a typical heroic as well as ZA holds much more raid damage than many raid boss fights, so it wouldn´t do good to base our viability in brutallus-style fights on the SA effect in 5/10mans. but they are a part of the game, especially with the amounts of 10mans coming in lich king, and I was somewhat relieved to see that the severely reduced jotw effect didn´t kill off our ability to pug.