Amera

Just for another WWS, Duo didn't report any serious mana issues and still got the #1 spot for our SWP clear.

 

Valerys

That's all fine, but as I said I was spamming all my AoE abilities on Hyjal trash which most definitely did not have JoW on it, and mana was never a concern.

 

burghy

Ofc they didn't report any mana issues when JoW returns more mana than JotW. What Hylo pointed out in first wws is also true for the rest posted.
They nerfed it to 25% of current value and most likely they'll add internal cooldown or remove the stacking. Otherwise ret is a much better choice than shadow/survival and stacking jow will allow all dps close to infinite mana.

 

Valerys

Well, I also had absolutely no mana problems testing my rotation on a dummy with only solo-buffs and no JoW. I went on for 6 minutes before stopping and my mana was full in the end. Granted I do have 2 T6, but I'm fairly sure Divine Plea will cover for the loss of that regen.

 

Kyne

I think it's safe to say at this point that people are getting up to 150% more mana from Judgment of Wisdom than they are from Judgment of the Wise which is only ruining a fair chance of evaluating our mana pool at this point.

Once Judgment of Wisdom returns are normalized, let's come back and re-evaluate but until then I really don't see a reason to keep posting about how "okay" their mana bar is.

 

Lórthas

Can you please tell me what your normal cycle looks like?

 

Ghilgam

I'm fairly new to looking at WWS logs - can someone explain why there is such a high number of SoB procs compared to hits (more than 4 times the amount of swings in most cases)?

e.g. On the parse Yamamoto linked earlier he white-hit Brutallus 39 times but it shows a SoB count of 180.

 

Hylo

I can only agree. If you check Brutallus fight on Arikahs WWS you will find that 2x T6 bonus is about as strong as replenishment for us (assuming ~100% time on target). I got similar results myself our last SWP clear (pre-patch, but neither of those mechanisms were changed since then).

Arikahs mana gains during Brutallus:

13,625 - Judgement of Wisdom
8,859 - Judgements of the Wise
3,213 - Spiritual Attunement
2,500 - Wisdom
2,362 - Replenishment
1,537 - Improved Water Elemental

Compare the numbers to a lvl80 manaregen (gear without int, no 2x T6, seemingly non-bugged JoW):


(more about how I came to this)

Anecdotal evidence that "our mana is fine" is not worth much now. Numbers are different thing of course, but bear in mind what is discussed last few pages.
Every time an attack procs SoB it hits the target and after that it hits you. CS, DS and judgements (right?) are proccing SoB too so to calculate what SoB number *should* be in the context of WWS you can use:

(# Auto Attack + # CS + # DS + # Judgement) * 2

I used # here to note this means "number of this attack"

 

Pazgaz

SoB procs of specials and WWS counts the self inflicted SoB damage as a SoB proc.

 

Sapp

Seal of Blood backlash damage is also called Seal of Blood, so it doubles up. Plus you're getting another hit + backlash for every special move used.

On Ret paladins:
<Fyr> its like they went from sniffing powdered sugar for 3 years, got real cocaine for 2 weeks, and are pissed that they're going back to the sugar again

 

yamamoto

The consensus seems, and is correct, that we can't really see any problems with mana at 70 because JoW is bugged right now, so any argument made is kind of moot. We need a fixed JoW and raid buffs at 80 to see what we are doing.

Also of note, in case anyone missed it. Ghostcrawler posted that our SoB and JoB damage was increased back up to 95% of its "original" power. What I think he means is that after they nerfed the Seal by about 20% damage that last build, they increased it back up by 15% (Losing only 5%) This was because he wanted us to not be dependant on Consecrate or Holy Wrath for Single Encounters. This was supposedly hotfixed onto the beta servers yesterday, and since it was a decided change before the nerf hit live, it simply just didn't have any live-span on Live.

 

Mountie

No mana problems in sunwell tonight, no surprise with the mass AoE. Did have some minor troubles on Manafiends after Felmyst which sucked but was able to judge back up after they were dead.

Brut I stuck to the "blizz" rotation. Judgement > DS > CS, below 35% Hammer > Judge > DS > CS. No exorcism, No Consecrate, no Holy Wrath. I was ok on mana until under 35% where it began to drain fast, obviously Brut died before I oom'd since his health is so low. My DPS for the fight went down ~500 from last week(little more). I tried to play as close to the blizz 'expected' as possible. Obviously the new righteous vengeance will increase that a touch. 3200 -> 2700 were the actual numbers, give or take a bit of rounding.

 

Nêver

Here my post from the blizzard suggestions forum. Maybe here it reaches more people, who could be interested in it.
As I can't post in us forums, feel free take it into these.

 

Redcape

@Never I completely disagree. This change would be hugely problematic for a ret paladin attempting to offtank. SA is necessary for our offtanking (or just 5 man tanking) role, and removing it completely through talents is a mistake.

JoW brings tremendous return to people with large manapools, and very little to us in comparison. A better alternative would be to add "The mana returned to you from Judgement of Wisdom is increased by 33/66/100%" or somesuch.

 

Nêver

The offtanking aspect is right in some way, but it's rather that I often try to get some kind of extra damage/mana, than really offtankging mobs.
Where am I offtanking, when standing in voidzones willingly or refuse to dispell my dots?


But still we should be able to offtank..., than maybe the whole JotW Talentversion that I suggested should get
*exept when under the effects of Righteous Fury* like Fanaticism.
Thus you would have some decent kind of DPS mode and Tank mode/stance.


Let me make this clear, what I wanted say is, that Spiritual Attunement has far to big influence on our really tiny manapool, when NOT tanking.
My suggestion doen't have to be the best sollution for that, because we can still taunt from healers and are wearing plate...so maybe someone got an even better idea to improve this.




I aggree with you on JoW, I still dont get why they turned JoW from flat value to %ual at all.

 

Questioner

Anecdotal PVE @ 70 Observations after the hotfix.

Last night we did a zerg Kara and ZA run. For an idea of the kinds of buffs we had, we had only warriors (prot and dps), priests (holy and shadow), druids (feral and resto) and paladins (prot and ret) with highly varying ranges of gear from blues to T6. NOBODY used Judgement of Wisdom specifically upon my request, as I wanted to see just how bad this change would be for Ret. We also did not have Kings on any paladin.

I never drank the entire night. I never even dipped low. I spammed every single one of my abilities, including Holy Wrath. I am sorry I do not have a WWS of the night, wasn't thinking of it at the time. Two pieces of T6 were equipped, and seal of blood was used.

So, to those telling us our tests are invalid because of bugged JoW, this test seems to indicate differently to me. Yes, I did have a little int on my gear, but I also did not have many of the int or mana buffs due to raid composition. Granted, it is not Sunwell, so maybe nobody here cares.

 

Corronach

That sounds really odd, would someone who was with you happen to have a wws?

 

rldolph79

Thanks to my holy paladins who aparently don't like 10% haste I've got the WWS that you guys are looking for...no JoW on Brutallus:

Wow Web Stats

Armory hasn't updated in a while, so my gear isn't what's shown. I have 2 piece T6, and the only intellect I have on my gear is from stats to chest and T6 shoulders. My latency is pretty terrible, so my rotation isn't perfect, but I used everything except Holy Wrath and I went oom at about the 3:15 mark in the fight.

 

Gevlin

I did a little bit of testing on the level 70 target dummy last night, and while i don't have screen caps, I can summarize pretty easily. All of these tests were done using JoW over 6 mins and self-buffed with only Might and Ret Aura, AW at mins 1, 3, 5...Glyphed for Command/Judgement

Using SoR (untalented): 1450 dps, using consecratex2 only during AW, and was fully sustainable. (oom in sub 2 mins with full consecrate spam)

Using SoC: 1675 dps with consecratex2 during AW and was sustainable.

Using SoB (druid healer): 1850 dps, nearly full consecrate rotation (screwed up the priority twice), nearly oom at 6 mins. Seems sustainable with a single pot or any other source of incoming damage. i was getting ~23.5 mana per second from SA.

 

Ghilgam

A little bit off topic, but why is it that we have to constantly damage ourselves (Seal of Blood) to do competitive DPS?

It is boggling my mind that everyone is just fine with this mechanic, as if Blizzard have said "We aim to get retribution to do good damage, but you need some sort of penalty. Other classes will do similar dps but with no penalty", and everyone has nodded their heads in agreement.

I know I haven't been following end-game Retribution stuff that long but I've seen almost no complaints about it. Why is that?

 

Questioner

I noticed a very low SA Mana gain. Almost all the damage caused to you was also healed by you. Spiritual Attunement 2,035. From the damage you took, it could have been double that.

Now, I am not saying it isn't a problem, its just an observation. When you are the ret paladin judging light it is actually costing you significant mana for damaging abilities due to JoL being self healing.

 

Fiola

Because the self-damage is trivial in PvE while non-trivial in PvP. A PvE "only" tool means it won't be nerfed for the sake of PvP as easily. Also, warlocks are a class that HAS to damage themselves - for us, it's really a choice.

Besides, the self damage is mana if healed or negated by JoL if not.

 

Hylo

Exactly. This has nagged my mind for a while now. It seems the best if all retris judge Wisdom (even without the stacking bug at lvl80) and prots/holys take care of the Light even if their Light is weaker. If you don't have prot or holy and you want Light up... /roll which pala will get less mana?

ILotP heals on the other hand seem to give me SA mana back for some reason (has it always been like that?)

 

Ghilgam

For the most part the damage in PVE is negligible, but it does take up healer time, and chunky JoB crits can be dangerous (or even deadly in unlucky circumstances). I am always very hesitant to use it when there is a lot of raid damage flying around.

I understand that this is now being used as a means to differentiate pvp and pve damage, but this could surely be achieved via other means than an annoying pve mechanic.

 

Phayne2355

This seems to mirror my own experience.

Edit: turns out the WWS report was borked