I'm not sure, if it does than the number will be higher. Can anyone confirm/refute this?

Question concerning 2.3 and Judgement refreshing task:

I was not really able to run any serious test on the PTR since it is up so here is something i am wondering. Comparing to how it is currently on LIVE(pre-2.3) where we are always a bit stressed in raid that the 2 judgements from different paladin fall off, do you feel comfortable on the PTR 2.3 with the Judgement refreshing task now with Crusader Strike on a 6sec. Cooldown?

How it is?

Thanks in advance!

Judgements will basically never drop unless you get pulled off the mob for some reason.

On tank and spank fights, they will never fall off now.

While it's not an absolute truth, I'm almost certain that I've seen double JoW procs with SoC active, so as long as it wasn't some lag or SCT error JoW can probably proc off of SoC.

First of all I want to say thanks for this brilliant thread containing tons of useful information.

considering the ret-cycle-spreadsheets i have a question:
having a hunter as my alt using different shotrotation makros I wonder if there is a posibility to create a mininum-client-lag ret-makro using cs and judgement at the right time.
i am not very good in doing makro stuff, but using castsequence commands there should be the possibility to create a weaponspeed/haste optimized cycle.

is anyone able to help with this?
or does such a sequence exist?
or does it not make any sense (and why)?

thanks for the help in advance,

cthu.

No DPS class at all in this game has any right whatsoever to bitch about downtime when soloing. Healers have it infinitely worst, as long as in raids / groups the mana regen is sufficient, DPS classes already have a huge advantage over healers/tanks when soloing/grinding.

Its not just downtime in soloing, duh. It effects all areas of gameplay naturally. Do you know how frustrating it is to run 5 yard behind your enemy for minutes just because you dont get mana from anything? Ok, that was a little exagarated, but all manaclassas should have some built in manaregen. Some dont need huge, just any kind of manaregen so your class isnt shut down completely after you go oom 1st time.

And no, BoW isnt built in manaregen, reality check. Same can be said for JoW, it needs you to peacefully be whacking your enemy to generate mana. And we all know how easy that is in pvp for example, so it isnt natural manaregen. I would be personally fine if I got around 50-80 mp5 with lets say T5/T6 level gear. Atlest it would be something compared to ZERO manaregen. It could be little addition to some of the talents, nothing fancy.

Some kind of reasonable manaregen is needed for all mana classes.

Crusade was still proccing fine from refreshing JotC when i ran the seal of blood test.

Every class in the game has a DPS "tree". Almost every one of those has less downtime than ours.

Why compare to "trees" (healing/tanking) that are not designed for grinding? Now that's futile.

Last time I checked Paladins were a healing/tanking hybrid class, but thank you for proving me wrong. And actually I have less downtime (on the PTR) in my healing gear than when I'm specced ret. The 800 free spell damage is very awesome for healers and makes grinding cake.

It was working fine last time I was on the PTRs. This was a while ago though when JoW was also proccing off Judgement refreshes, so it might have been changed in one of the latest builds.

I was fooling around on excel a little while ago and decided to make up a graph for how effective Judgement of Light and Judgement of Wisdom are based on your attacks per 5 seconds.



The effects of either Judgement scale linearly based on how quickly you're attacking the target. Not groundbreaking but still pretty cool.

I think that it would be doubtful in most cases and all the cases where it works would be stuff that really doesn't matter (if you're having a hard time with trash.. srsly). The only advantage you'd get out of it would be that the mob hits weaker than usual... the stamina removal will not take away health and therefore the debuff would only be 'useful' on mobs that regularly heal up to full (as what is the point of taking away stamina from a boss that will never go above a certain health level).

If Vindication worked on raid bosses, that would be all I need to convince myself that ret-raidin is a worthwhile role to persue. Altho, 15% less strength is huuuge debuff to the point that its just too overpowered for anything that hits remotely hard.

imo, vindication is mostly useless in a pve scene... and in a pvp scene I'm doubtful as well.

Assuming you're hit-capped and attacking from behind (which you should be), the only way for your Crusader Strike to *not hit* would be if it was dodged

With CS on a 10 second cooldown, a single dodge would be enough to cause Judgements to fall off, since Judgements have a 20 second duration.

With CS on a 6 second cooldown, you can CS thrice within a Judgement's duration, so the boss would have to dodge your CS 3 consecutive times in order to cause Judgements to fall off. If we assume a 5.8% dodge rate (I've heard this number thrown around several times, shoot me if I'm wrong), you roughly have a 0.019% chance of letting Judgements fall off.

Stamina removal part takes away health by reducing maximum hp. As long as vindication procs while mob is above ~90%, it'll provide some benefit.

Well, reducing both mana and health by 15% can be useful in a lot of situations, as well as having another automatic debuff for cleansing to protect stings/corruption/judgements/etc.

Unless something fundamental has changed in the game bosses and most trash mobs do not have stats. All they have is health, mana, attack power and armor. Thus Vindication would have no effect in PvE.

It remains a PvP talent, just as it was and should be.

Quoted for emphasis. Vindication in its current form *cannot* be made to have a large PvE impact, because it would then become a required debuff for any encounter.

The inherent potential dooms it to a lifetime of extremes: Either it's useless or you should never raid without it.

Some classes are balanced around being able to run OOM fast. My shadowpriest can go OOM incredibly fast in Arenas, expecially with another class actively manaburning me, and after shadowfiend I am completely spent, expecially if the other people make an effort to kite/neuter the shadowfiend.

I still don't think that's an argument for increased mana regeneration for shadowpriests. All DPS classes grind incredibly well, and some DPS classes are incredibly easy to shut down once drained of mana. It is part of the game, and it isn't unique to ret paladins. The SoW change should be a nice boost since it gives you the choice between increased burst and increased longevity like hunters get with aspect of the viper/hawk.

Increase? You just said you have Shadowfiend. Dont you understand the simple difference between no manaregen and some manaregen? Do you understand what it means to have 0 (zero) mana/5, zero natural regen from talents, zero spirit from gear(Stating this because I dont want to give you backdoors) and zero skils like evocation/lifetap/shadowfiend/shamanisticrage?

I find it rather odd to see you who I consider remotely intelligent person to talk about shadowfiend in same post and then say "I still don't think that's an argument for increased mana regeneration for shadowpriests". You arent making any sense.

Shadowpriests are slightly more dependent on mana than retribution paladin, this is self evident to absolutely anyone. Your white melee DPS is probably 3 or 4x higher than a shadowpriest wanding.

I'd gladly give out shadowfiend for arenas in exchange for 5 or 6 higher damage when OOM. If ret paladins have issues with running out of mana in raids WHILE CHAIN POTTING I have no problem with blizzard actively fixing it, but mana problems in arenas or while grinding are problems that every single class faces except warlocks.

So you dont understand the difference between going oom at 1 minute 20seconds and going oom at 5 minutes? By your saying "It is exactly same, because both are eventually oom"? Completely ignoring the actual mana consumption.

Can you point me to actual testing on this?

As far as i remember, there is no other debuff that reduces actual stats (other then some lowlevel weapon procs).

Most tests on vindication indicate that at least part of mob attack power, health, and mana comes from raw stats with different scaling. When vindication only reduced strength and agility, people reported about 15% attack reduction on mobs that were not immune to it. Health is also affected according to tests on Infested Root-Walker, vindication expiring at full health (they cast regrowth and heal themselves) drops them to 96% (you can probably test it by mindcontrolling mobs under effect of vindication as well).

Mana can be seen directly, and vindication seem to produce about 10% reduction in max mana.

If mob has agility, at least part of it will probably add to dodge (which equals minor +expertise for everyone). If mob has strength, vindication is also -ap debuff.

Even if mobs had stats, remember you'd have to check how much each different mob actually relies on those stats. Just like a boss that got his AP reduced to the minimum possible still does a lot of damage (less, but not like a player with 0 AP...). There are just way too many hidden numbers here to conclude how good vindication would be if it would work on bosses - something that can't even be tested because it just doesn't work.