The 4pc PvP bonus is now -1 second on the judgement cooldown
How valuable would a 7 second Judgement be insofar as proccing the JOTW mana return that much oftener? I get the feeling that it could very well outweigh "bad" itemization on the PvP gear if it means we avoid going OOM, which costs us a lot of DPS anyway.
When playing around on the Beta over the weekend I came to the conclusion that the proc rate was a heck of a lot lower than 50% of 3.0.2 values. Apart from procs which occurred at the same instantaneous time procs were separated by at least 3 seconds, so I am tempted to say that either a lower than 50% proc rate is occurring or some combination of 50% proc rate and internal cooldown is now the order of the day.
I think once things settle down it'll be well worth testing, probably by using a hunter autoshooting with a fast bow and seeing what sort of a proc rate they get.
How valuable would a 7 second Judgement be insofar as proccing the JOTW mana return that much oftener? I get the feeling that it could very well outweigh "bad" itemization on the PvP gear if it means we avoid going OOM, which costs us a lot of DPS anyway.
Maybe if JotW is unchanged at 80, however now I had 0 mana issues in a 15 minute fight spamming all my dps attacks and a few Flashes (every time I dropped below 50% I used my AoW proc).
I guess I should use my parse to get some JoW numbers, since the tooltip is wrong:
Facts:
107 JoW procs
306 non-Cons attacks
Since Cons hit Ony adds, I will assume 30 casts
31.8% of hits procs JoW so there must be an ICD
15 minute fight duration so 225 chances to proc assuming 4 second ICD, and with 50% gives 112 procs.
Therefore there appears to be a 4 second cooldown on procs AND 50% chance to proc
I am concerned with Jotw being too low. I recently rerolled a paladin. Currently I sit at lvl 68. My stats are as follows:
399 str
169 agi
384 sta
136 int
85 spirit
21.12% crit
3.18 hit
1202 AP before buffs
0/2/57 build atm
I get aprox 11 mana/tic from replenishment
Cycle goes Judgement > CoS > DS HoW, SoB and Conc are completely out of the question manawise.
AoW heal procs are a waste of mana. The heal cost puts me drinking more often than it crits. It only APPEARS to be grey area worthwhile if it crits with sheath of light. Now if I ignore all AoW procs and simply HL (hope for crit) I can keep going but at a much slower pace. Recount is showing I am doing aprox 50-160 single target dps less than last night before the patch. DPS wise, I'm spiking between 450 and 650 dps. 200dps sway, Is this normal? My current grind spot is in SMV Fel Pits doing quest and getting primals.
Quest grinding feels much slower. Mind you, my 70 warlock can grind indefinitely and could before 70 despite also being a "mana limited class." Also note, they just got buffed this patch. Demo or Affliction, I never stop to drink... ever.
Now I'm not saying that we might not be OP'ed with flawed gear design at top end 70 but this patch just turned the last 1.5 levels into a bitch. My pace is definitely slower.
i'm not too worried about the HoW nerf as I never use it during grinding.
Using Blessing of Wisdom seems to be helping (trying various things while I write this on 2nd computer). It allows me to use an AoW proc here and there but waiting for my heath to dip and using a HL appears to be the way to go. Slightly faster killing pace than with Might but slower than last night. It might be ok but only because the mobs in this area are so far apart that I can utilize what little replenishment I get.
I don't disagree that there should be penalties tied to using extra. I do, however, feel that we should be able make gains when limiting use. 18-20% would be a sweet spot for JotW when considering no int on gear. Small gains would allow "some" utility while still making us watch/play the mana game.
I can live with the DPS. Overall DPS is still good. I will try and WWS a Kara run tonight.
In an effort to keep our discussions on the same page, can we try to get a recap of current Ret Paladin mechanics?
* Seal of Blood deals 28% of weapon damage per proc. -wowhead indicates 22% weapon damage, but previous posts indicate being hotfixed to pre-3.0.3 values
* Judgement of Blood deals (36% of weapon damage + 16% AP + 25% SP) -lifted straight from wowhead, will need confirmation
* Seal of Command deals 45% of weapon damage per proc. -lifted straight from wowhead, will need confirmation
* Judgement of Command deals (24% of weapon damage + 16% AP + 25% SP). -lifted straight from wowhead, will need confirmation
* Judgement of Wisdom restores 1% of maximum mana per proc. Proc rate is estimated at 50% chance with a 4 second internal cooldown.
* Avenging Wrath now causes Forbearance, preventing Divine Shield (and other effects) from being used with it simultaneously.
* Forbearance now lasts 2 minutes, notably allowing the use of back-to-back Avenging Wrath's if talented with Sanctified Wrath
These seem to be the most fluid/controversial abilities at the moment.
The priority would be getting solid numbers on SoComm and JOB so we can start crafting spreadsheets and theorycraft again.
* Thus far, my overall DPS from previous raids has remained relatively unchanged. So, although we may have gotten a nerf, I think the future still looks good.
* I haven't had too much trouble with mana either. I slowly go OOM, but I haven't actually ran out completely on any bosses (and still spamming all my abilities).
* Finally, Righteous Vengeance. It seemed a little low on my overall damage. Is that to be expected? I'm curious to see what others think of it's performance.
Second, I did notice the SoB changes. According to tooltips, SoB got nerfed, but the Judgement received a much smaller change. And, not surprisingly, it registered high on my WWS report. The SoB tooltip remains the same. Is is true they hotfixed it to pre-nerf?
Third, about the 7-second judgement cooldown. Has anyone done any work on how useful this would be? I have the gear to get the 4-piece bonus, BUT, I'm unsure if it's worth sacrificing my stats. Logically, you'd THINK it would be great; more JotW and more damage as Judgements seem be our (or at least, my) highest damaging ability.
Unless they did not change the tooltip the nerf to SoB is still in effect.
The tooltips are client side. When they hotfix the server, they continue to read the same (like when they nerfed JotW but the tooltip still said "returns 33% base mana" when all you were getting was 15%). It will update in the next client side patch.
I just did Onyxia together with a healer. The mana gain from JoW was insufficient at best. Even with the incoming damage I wasn´t able to maintain full J/CS/DS/Con rotations but instead had to skip quite a few Consecrations. I ended the fight with below 200 mana after HoW spam.
Righteous Vengeance seems to serve its purpose in dealing higher sustained DPS (according to my calculations, the original talent would have added about 48k damage, the dot added 80k).
Keep in mind that we are supposed to be able to maintain a full rotation using Plea on cooldown. So while annoying and perhaps in need of a slight buff I wouldnt think that our mana situation in PvE is all that dire. Perhaps have JotW grant 25% greater chance to regain mana from a JoW.
16 minutes of fight thats that would be around 20k mana with your gear (didnt add int from mark so it balances out with your low int gear).
Keep in mind that we are supposed to be able to maintain a full rotation using Plea on cooldown.
Our basic rotation (Judge/CS/DS) is supposed to be self-sustaining. and DP is supposed to give us enough mana to use some of our other tools past those.
The way I understand it is that DP either allows consequent Consecration spam, or some Consecrations with Exocrism along with it, or HoW spam, but not all of it.
However, this is not quite the case. On a Training Dummy, judging JoL, a rotation of J/CS/DS nets in a deficit of around 1400 mana per recast of Seal of Command. Switching to JoW, I still lose around 900 mana every 2 minutes (43 Int on gear, 4623 max mana pool so I do get a bit more mana from Replenishment than usual). This without Glyph of Crusader Strike.
This shows how broken JoW was before (on live at least, I can´t say anything about the beta). It basically gave the illusion of the basic rotation being easily sustainable, allowing even quite a lot of Consecrations without mana problems.
As Judgement/CS/DS mana costs scale along our base mana pool which is intended to be our max mana too (no INT on gear), the situation won´t change at 80 and we will still run OOM. I hope the devs agree that something needs to be done about this.
not only the nerf dint happened (the tooltip shows the nerfed value though). but it also procs a lot, to the point were im finishing my fights always with full health
I did BT last night through Mother. With all of the new nerfs I didn't have any real mana issues. A few times on trash I would have to drink afterward. And on Mother I got a little low due to the AOE silence and not being able to Judge as much. Besides that, I was still using a full FCFS rotation with Consecrate, Exorcism, and Holy Wrath when appropriate.
DPS wise, I was #1, so it seems the fixes with the RV DOT, etc, are working. I'll post the WWS as soon as my guild gets it up!
Also, to the above poster, HoW was available at 20%
The current BoE BS weapons Titansteel Destroyer being the relevant one for us are honestly not worth the hassle unless you don't see yourself downing 10-man Naxx any time soon. Compare that above to Death's Bite from KT or even Demise from Heigan. and you can quickly see it wouldn't be worth the cost if you're involved in any real level of raiding. You should still be happy with BS due to the sockets, but the actual gear is pretty irrelevant to raiders(there are a few DPS and taning pieces as well, but they are similarly disadvantaged to Naxx loot).
Is there a reason that these weapons aren't the typical 3.8 speed like others such as StormHerald?
With the nerf to judgement of wisdom, it's not even really worth using for me... I netted roughly 2700 mana returned from brut last night. It got to the point where I was hoping someone would burn and run into me so that I could get something back via spiritual attunement. Granted, we killed him fairly early so this was pre hotfix to SoB. I'll be looking at the numbers speficially tonight when we take down M'uru and I'll see if there are any mana issues there.
Also, did anyone else notice that the patch notes said that holy pallies would see 2 percent from their JoW? If that's true, is it raid wide? If it is, it may not be much, but an extra 2700 mana would be welcome so that I could go back to using haste pots (instead of mana).
Has anyone here run the numbers on the Blackened Naaru Sliver? It isn't listed anywhere in Rawr, and I was wondering how it stacked up to both the shard of contempt and berserker's call.
Has anyone here run the numbers on the Blackened Naaru Sliver? It isn't listed anywhere in Rawr, and I was wondering how it stacked up to both the shard of contempt and berserker's call.
I don't have the numbers on it but back when it worked in Rawr, it was the top trinket, somewhat above Berserker's Call. If you want to test it yourself you can edit it to give about 150 AP (it's worth roughly that much for twohanders).
Any update on the armor bypassing of Sanctified Wrath? Still non-functional or does it appear to function again since patch.
Anecdotal evidence on live shows Judgements not proccing seal - didn't do enough testing with JoC to know if it procced SoC. Anyone run enough to know if Command still procs on Judgement?
I'd be interested if someone could prompt Ghostcrawler on both topics: Sanctified Wrath and Judgements. Should A) all Judgements proc seals, B) only Command proc SoC, or C) no Judgements should proc seals? Maybe a reminder that B increases burst , especially in PvP. If C we may need other tweaks (increase some coefficients) since we've had A on beta and live "inflating" our damage.
Hard for us to theorycraft if we don't even know if the Judge-seal mechanic is functioning since it was never documented in patch notes or by blue (to my knowledge).
I saw definite increase in DPS from the night before the patch and post patch last night. Pre-patch, in heroic Black Morass I was in the high 800s low 900s. Last night I was easily hitting about 1165 in mostly rep blues and a couple purples. I was using SoB and a FCFS rotation, Consecrate conservatively and HoW every time it was up. I was very happy with what I saw and I definitely feel the AoW and RV changes were both very good buffs to our consistent damage.
Mortuary, while the increase in dps is there, in a 5 man it can vary greatly on how things are done. For CoT2 if you count damage done to the adds through consecrate/DS you gain a nice boost. Also the types of group buffs you have access to are much more limited.
On the mana issue, for me doing some arenas / WSG I found it was a bit lower (always judge wisdom). But not crippling as long as I had small breaks or healing inc.
JoC definitely procs Soc, or can anyway. Last night around 9 central I was judging with my back to spiders in Terrokar to play with the dot, and it SoC was definitely proc'ing.
I'm confused on why everyone things consecration is spammable with DP - DP is 25% mana, Consecration is 22% mana. DP gives us pretty much 1 consecration a minute - are we just assuming that with DP it pushes our time to OOM off the "likely to happen" of duration in a boss fight?
NOTE: I know DP is more than just base mana, but even at double it's 2 consecrates a minute.
DP is 25% of total mana, while Cons is 22% of base mana. While solo those are nearly the same (unless you have Kings or some other int buff), it raids Int gets a few other buffs to help it out.
While mana for me is fine now, at 80 with no int on gear or Tier 6 there were issues with the Premade.
11/04/08, 10:36 PM
