Err, how about the average paladin should be doing a certain percentage of the damage of the average rogue, and the exceptional paladin should be doing a certain percentage of the damage of the exceptional rogue.
Are you assuming paladins are the only class that can min/max to get exogenous ways of buffing their damage? Or are paladins particularly susceptible to buff stacking compared to rogues/warriors/moonkins etc?
Err, how about the average paladin should be doing a certain percentage of the damage of the average rogue, and the exceptional paladin should be doing a certain percentage of the damage of the exceptional rogue.
Are you assuming paladins are the only class that can min/max to get exogenous ways of buffing their damage? Or are paladins particularly susceptible to buff stacking compared to rogues/warriors/moonkins etc?
Your first sentence is somewhat true. An average ret should be doing less damage the an average pure dps class (about 95% ideally)
But the problems is, that at the moment ret paladins damage is limited by MANA, not by skill.
So the skill a ret needs to be exceptional is not skill at playing the game, but skill at choosing the right gear: mana gear.
And the skill at abusing some silly mechanics as taking damage (like fire) deliberately instead of avoiding it.
Now understand this: With the inclusion of a 3rd instant (Divine Storm) things probably need some tuning, but completely axing (50%) damage output while shield is up would kill a playstyle that has existed since ret was made and one that has always made sense: Sacrifice a defensive cooldown for offense.
True, and I've used it as such myself on occasion (although less often). I think however that perhaps it is better that playstyles do start to change, given Avenging Wrath and the fact that yes, when we started out with Divine Shield, it was effectively a 50% drop in damage.
Originally Posted by Multipass
I also agree with the user's suggestion of adding an immune to stun/fear/etc mechanic to Divine Protection but still keeping the ability to be damaged in there.
Agreed - and if Divine Shield is the ultimate "get out of jail free" card, then it should have a downside to it - such as a nerf to damage done.
Mearis - of course other classes can min/max... the difference for retadins however is that they have to min/max based as much around mana bars and Spiritual Attunement as bread and butter DPS stats. PvP also has the added problem of mana drains, but that's a separate issue for now.
Err, how about the average paladin should be doing a certain percentage of the damage of the average rogue, and the exceptional paladin should be doing a certain percentage of the damage of the exceptional rogue.
Are you assuming paladins are the only class that can min/max to get exogenous ways of buffing their damage? Or are paladins particularly susceptible to buff stacking compared to rogues/warriors/moonkins etc?
I'm not talking about stacking raid buffs with self buffs (BL+AW+DPS potion being the most common example), using right consumables, perfecting your dps cycle or moving so that your time-on-target is as long as possible.
I'm not even talking about "mana management" in a sense that I have fixed amount of mana and I'll stretch that to be just perfectly consumed during the fight.
I'm referring to the "skill" you can do after your normal dps would call it done. Due to Spiritual Attunement, we can basically conjure mana out of the thin air and for us mana = dps boost. Doing so usually involves some risks (standing in fire), using spells in a way they are not intended (LoH, Hand of Sacrifice), composing the raid groups differently than one might expect (shaman/priest group) or using gear that clearly is not intended for us (mail with intellect).
What I'm trying to tell is that when it's mana, not the more conventional "dps skills", that is the most influential in our dps, I see it as a problem.
Mearis - of course other classes can min/max... the difference for retadins however is that they have to min/max based as much around mana bars and Spiritual Attunement as bread and butter DPS stats. PvP also has the added problem of mana drains, but that's a separate issue for now.
Sure, but each class has their own wierd quirks on how to min/max that might seem counter-intuitive. For example, for shadowpriests with dispersion now, you can avoid running in during darkness of one thousand souls and continue dpsing and then pop dispersion at the last second, for warriors that might mean taking a few extra damage for extra rage gain, etc - as long as paladins don't gain a lot more than other classes from min/maxing playstyle I think those quirks are very good and allow good players to perform much better than more mediocre ones.
DPS rotations are only so complex, other little counter-intuitive ways of min/maxing dps add a really nice dynamic to fights.
Paladins have the exact same thing as Warriors right now.
We can turn excess resources (Rage and Mana) in extra damage via "resource dump" abilities (Heroic Strike and Consecration respectively). As long as our DPS isn't balanced around 100% Consecration uptime (which it shouldn't be) in any situation where we take damage we will do a lot more DPS than "normal" classes.
That's what you get for basing the class' regen system around abusing a tanking mechanic.
Sure, but each class has their own wierd quirks on how to min/max that might seem counter-intuitive. For example, for shadowpriests with dispersion now, you can avoid running in during darkness of one thousand souls and continue dpsing and then pop dispersion at the last second, for warriors that might mean taking a few extra damage for extra rage gain, etc - as long as paladins don't gain a lot more than other classes from min/maxing playstyle I think those quirks are very good and allow good players to perform much better than more mediocre ones.
DPS rotations are only so complex, other little counter-intuitive ways of min/maxing dps add a really nice dynamic to fights.
I'm sorry, but this is a ridiculous argument. A continuous drain on our resources with the inability to provide competitive damage output within our stated "intended rotation" is a "quirk?"
Please stop trolling.
Originally Posted by Cerakona
Why is everyone so concerned about being better than 5th on the top damage? I mean, at the end of the day, lets get some actual facts sorted: Retribution is a Melee Support DPS spec, and while this wonderful last six or seven weeks of being far over powered was nice, we were never meant to top damage over the heavily pure dps classes (Warlocks, Mages, Rogues, Hunters).
This statement is categorically wrong. I don't know where people are getting the idea that we're somehow justified in being a sub-par DPS class because we're "melee support" or "hybrids." Were this the case, Elemental Shaman, Warriors, Druids -- anything that's not a Mage, Hunter, Rogue, or Warlock -- are all "support classes." This ideology is contrary to everything Ghostcrawler/Blizzard has enumerated in any of their posts. The intended goal with the buff/standardization of classes was to make DPS interchangeable and competitive. There should not be a disparity of 800 DPS between players of similar skill yet different classes. Granted some fights will favor some over others; but this notion of "support class" is completely irrelevant and antiquated in the post-3.0 world.
Originally Posted by Hylo
Blizzard stated no more than four main goals for the whole paladin class in Blizzcon class panel and one of them was:
* Retribution paladins are supposed to deal a decent amount of DPS without running out of mana.
Whatever that "decent amount" might be is debatable, but in the light of other statements that should be roughly the DPS of elemental shaman, fury warrior, shadow priest et al.
For me it seems that Blizzard trying to balance us around "limited mana" will eventually fail. If we do the same dps than other hybrids with Blizzards stated sustainable target cycle (Judgement + CS + DS), fine...
Hylo's post nailed it on the head. Now I'm not advocating a return to being overpowered; but I am advocating that we should be able to perform in our necessary capacity (i.e. not healing, etc.) without fear of going OOM. I am also advocating that if I'm an exceptional player competing against others who are not of the same skill level, then yes: I should be capable of being #1 damage in the raid. And if the concern is ridiculous amounts of damage output from Ret Pallies in high damage or AoE fights, then make Spiritual Attunement a Prot talent or something. I would much rather be confined by my skills as a player than poor Class mechanics.
Just to get the idea how much things affect our dps if we are in mana limited situation:
Demonic Rune: ~1200 mana + ~80 mana when self damage is healed Lay on Hands (glyphed): 1080 mana
If we only use Demonic Rune and Lay on Hands (no standing in fire, no HoSac) we'll gain ~2360 mana. If we further assume that the fight takes 3 minutes and we can use all this mana on Consecrations we wouldn't been able to do without it, we can calculate:
Consecration (22% base mana) with Benediction = 2953 * 0.22 * 0.9 = 585 mana
2360 / 585 = 4.03 Consecrations
During our last Brutallus kill my average consecration tick was 345 so I'll use it here:
4 * 8 * 345 = 11040 extra damage (even more if glyphed)
11040 dmg / 180s = 61.3 dps
May sound a bit stupid, but I'm still trying to figure out best weapon atm. Have a torch and blade of the harbingers, and for the life of me, I cannot figure out why every single simulator / calculater still says torch is the better weapon across the board, even with SoM. Weapon speed is what im assuming because of crusader strike / divine storm, but wouldnt the additional dps on the weapon as well as the increased number of SoM procs make up the difference?
edit: sorry to break into the theorycraft discussion, im following it pretty closely, but I've had absolutely not problems with mana impairment through all of Sunwell yesterday as well as bt / hyjal the day before. SoM + 2pc t6 tends to even out most of the mana problems, even w/o divine plea. That being said, there were TWO ret pallies in the raid at the time, and I'm wondering whether the replenishment effect may have been the reason for it. No spriest however, so approx the same mana regen.
The other thing: Yes, I realize its a huge inconvenience to not be able to spam superior insane dmg capabilties the entire time with SoM / SoC, but actually sealing Wisdom for about 4 hits netted me (other things inc as well) about 2k mana, and I was able to dps again with no problems on brutallus. Ended up third on the meters, but again, I have a feeling its because I pretty much poured everything I had into the fight, versus others half-assing.
Last edited by honorstrike : 11/06/08 at 12:17 PM.
May sound a bit stupid, but I'm still trying to figure out best weapon atm. Have a torch and blade of the harbingers, and for the life of me, I cannot figure out why every single simulator / calculater still says torch is the better weapon across the board, even with SoM. Weapon speed is what im assuming because of crusader strike / divine storm, but wouldnt the additional dps on the weapon as well as the increased number of SoM procs make up the difference?
Torch is better for either SoM and especially for SoC (since Seals are not normalized), due to the higher top end damage and better stats on the weapon vs Blade. However, it isn't a huge different (between 50-100 dps).
Weapon speed does not affect CS/DS (since it is fixed at 3.3 speed), only the weapon damage.
I've been reading the forums, and haven't found much info on the Blacksmith-only weapons, like the Stormherald, etc.
Anyone got any light to shed on these?
I'm gathering mats, but am still unsure whether to go Engineering or Blacksmithing for the best DPS performance at entry lvl 80 dungeons, i.e. Naxx
Originally Posted by Verimonde
There will not be a Stormherald type weapon "high level crafter only". There are however a fair number of epic crafted BoE weapons that smiths will be able to make in LK.
We didn't like the vast number of people who felt they were required to be Blacksmiths in order to get a good weapon. Players should choose their trade skills based on what they enjoy, not what they feel they must do.
As many pointed out, this is now confirmed in blue.
The buckle is godly, but I'm not sure if it's worth the time/gold to lvl BSing anymore for a Retribution Paladin.
Last edited by Thorin : 11/06/08 at 12:30 PM.
Reason: color
I was wondering if anyone here could help me with a macro.
I would have placed it in the healadin thread, but it is now closed.
As a paladin, to take advantage of the new talent "Judgements of the Pure" you need to cast a seal and judgement on an enemy. This kicks off the talent (which is a 15% haste buff for 1 minute).
What I am trying to do is figure out how to put up the seal (Seal of Wisdom), judge the judgement (Judgement of Wisdom), and then do a "target of target" on the boss to cast "Beacon of Light" on the tank- as this is on a 1 minute cooldown as well.
This statement is categorically wrong. I don't know where people are getting the idea that we're somehow justified in being a sub-par DPS class because we're "melee support" or "hybrids." Were this the case, Elemental Shaman, Warriors, Druids -- anything that's not a Mage, Hunter, Rogue, or Warlock -- are all "support classes." This ideology is contrary to everything Ghostcrawler/Blizzard has enumerated in any of their posts. The intended goal with the buff/standardization of classes was to make DPS interchangeable and competitive. There should not be a disparity of 800 DPS between players of similar skill yet different classes. Granted some fights will favor some over others; but this notion of "support class" is completely irrelevant and antiquated in the post-3.0 world.
You exaggerate a bit. I certainly wouldn't say the post you quoted is "categorically wrong". Perhaps he should have added a caveat in there that he assumes skill and gear are equal before saying retribution shouldn't beat the pure DPS classes.
Ghostcrawler certainly has indicated that the hybrids (all of the ones you mention, not just us) should, all things being equal, generally not beat the pure DPS classes. Here is just one Ghostcrawler quote on it (I couldn't find a blue.mmo-champion.com link for it, as the site has no search function, it seems, but had the quote captured on my guild forums.
Definitely agree that skill is nebulous. Our point is that previously a feral cat or a ret paladin of any level of skill had no real hope of beating a rogue with moderate or bad skill.
We absoutely agree that the 4 pure dps classes (rogue, warlock, mage, hunter) run the risk of losing raid spots if their dps is sub-par.
If everything else is truly equal (gear, skill, etc.) then the pure dps class should beat the hybrid. If a raid chooses to run without rogues, mages, warlock or hunters, they should expect their overall dps to be lower. You can quote me on that. But you're not going to beat them by as much as you did before, and there are going to be situations where things go just right for the paladin or druid and they will be on the top of the chart. We purposely deflated hybrid dps *a lot* before Lich King. The hybrids lost a lot of utility with some of their awesome buffs though, so we wanted to make up for that with dps.
What I am trying to do is figure out how to put up the seal (Seal of Wisdom), judge the judgement (Judgement of Wisdom), and then do a "target of target" on the boss to cast "Beacon of Light" on the tank- as this is on a 1 minute cooldown as well.
Just because abilities share the same length cooldown does not mean they can or should be linked. For instance doing all this in succession would mean you won't have a heal land for a minimum of 6 seconds (FoL, longer for HL) which isn't a good idea.
Re-seal when you have time, Beacon as necessary and use the following macro to help with Judgments, you can either mouseover the boss, target directly or target the tank. I like this one because it works while solo'ing too.
/cast [target=mouseover, harm] Judgment of Wisdom, [harm] Judgment of Wisdom, [target=targettarget, help] Judgment of Wisdom
Another option is to set the boss as a focus target and use it that way. Select the boss before combat starts, hit it, and then hit it again whenever you need to judge. Just don't forget to seal up when you need to.
/focus [nocombat]
/stopmacro [nocombat]
/cast [target=focus] Judgment of Wisdom
Torch is better for either SoM and especially for SoC (since Seals are not normalized), due to the higher top end damage and better stats on the weapon vs Blade. However, it isn't a huge different (between 50-100 dps).
Weapon speed does not affect CS/DS (since it is fixed at 3.3 speed), only the weapon damage.
BotH
134.0 dps (3.6 dps gain) / 3.5 weapon speed (.3s decrease)
108 AP (equates to about 15 ap lost with kings and divine strength)
55 crit rating (17 crit rating increase)
53 haste rating (3 haste rating increase)
so...the BotH gives you increased dps, increased crit, increased haste at the cost of 15 attack power and the stam (which to me is negligible).
Someone explain the math to me? Top end dmg is higher, but more som procs, more haste, more crit...Stats seem higher on BoTh
Basically, since seals now proc off CS and DS (do they still proc off Judgement? Last I heard, it was just Command now) the fact that seals do un-normalized damage is a big deal now. Since seal procs are directly related to weapon speed, and can proc off attacks that AREN'T related to weapon speed, a slower weapon means that you will get bigger numbers for seal procs on CS and DS. It isn't a big difference, but it's enough to push Torch, a slower, slightly less DPS weapon, above BotH, a faster weapon with slightly better stats.
CS, DS, and SoM all cause more damage with Torch and both of those attacks also proc SoM. You get ~16 more attacks every minute from CS and DS so you also get ~16 more SoM procs.
EDIT: Beaten and to add a response to this:
Originally Posted by Thorin
As many pointed out, this is now confirmed in blue.
The buckle is godly, but I'm not sure if it's worth the time/gold to lvl BSing anymore for a Retribution Paladin.
The strength of BS in LK was never the possibility of weapons, it was in getting two extra prismatic sockets. While not having BoP weapons makes me sad as a hammersmith, two extra sockets is much better since I can pick up weapons while I raid.
CS, DS, and SoM all cause more damage with Torch and both of those attacks also proc SoM. You get ~16 more attacks every minute from CS and DS so you also get ~16 more SoM procs.
EDIT: Beaten and to add a response to this:
The strength of BS in LK was never the possibility of weapons, it was in getting two extra prismatic sockets. While not having BoP weapons makes me sad as a hammersmith, two extra sockets is much better since I can pick up weapons while I raid.
Bear in mind the relative advantage of Jewelcrafting's special gems, provided you have the slots on your armor already. With a low number of slots, BS's extra slots may seem most enticing, but if you're rocking gem slots on half your gear already, I suspect you would find a greater advantage through Jewelcrafting's extra stat bonuses.
Of course, there's always the option of going JC/BS, which seems like the best idea for endgame scalability.
Blacksmithing gives you two gem sockets right now. bracers and gloves. The belt socket can be used by anyone. All three stack with any sockets currently present on the items. It doesn't matter how many gem sockets you have in your gear, you gain +32 to your stats.
Blacksmithing gives you two gem sockets right now. bracers and gloves. The belt socket can be used by anyone. All three stack with any sockets currently present on the items. It doesn't matter how many gem sockets you have in your gear, you gain +32 to your stats.
I think you misunderstood me. Yes, BS gives you +32 to your stats. But let's look at the "perfect" gems you get from JC.
The perfect gem is a +2 bonus over the standard. Now, if you're rocking 5 slots then that's a +10 bonus over not having them. If you're rocking 20 slots, that's a +40 bonus over not having them.
Obviously no one is going to be raiding with 5 or 20 gem slots, but this should illustrate the point I'm trying to make. At a certain number of gem sockets already on your gear, you will see more of a benefit from using JC-specific gems than you will from adding sockets as a blacksmith.
Perfects aren't BoP. The JC bonus is the prismatics, which work out to be a slight benefit over BS because you save having to use a blue gem to hit your metagem quota. But in practice that is not dependent on the total number of slots in your gear.
Forgive me for asking something that has undoubtedly been asked many times here, but after reading through many pages of posts and searching I'm having a hard time determining whether I should be using SoB or SoC? I have tried both in our recent BT raids and my DPS was about the same. I feel like the main advantage to SoB at this point would be for additional mana regen. Or should I actually be doing more damage with SoB? Thanks in advance for any replies.
Forgive me for asking something that has undoubtedly been asked many times here, but after reading through many pages of posts and searching I'm having a hard time determining whether I should be using SoB or SoC? I have tried both in our recent BT raids and my DPS was about the same. I feel like the main advantage to SoB at this point would be for additional mana regen. Or should I actually be doing more damage with SoB? Thanks in advance for any replies.
Rawr - Home is a good starting point for you. Import your gear from the armory or configure it manually. Decide what raid buffs you usually have, and go from there.
I'm not sure the latest Retribution nerfs/changes are fully represented yet, but the results will be similar and will only get more accurate as further Rawr releases are made.
Quick report from the front - just killed Brutallus and I ended the fight at 100% mana, no burns, no meteor slashes. I spammed everything except Holy Wrath (granted I'm not necessarily the best at spamming a perfect rotation). I have 3 int pieces, T6 bonus, and used JoW.
11/06/08, 9:32 AM
