Also, Gem Perfection only effects uncommon quality gems (Gem Perfection - Spell - World of Warcraft).

3.0.3 nerfed seals across the board, so I believe both blood and command are running the same coeff. I believe reading that their plan was to bring blood back up to better normalize PvE dps. But if they're thinking of changing back Vengeance they might not need to do that.

But yea, I'm personally at a loss myself.

Saladin, as others have stated, I think you're confused regarding JC. The Perfect cuts are available for anyone to use. Sometimes an uncommon quality gem when cut will wind up Perfect with better stats.

JC get use of JC only gems, such as [Bold Dragon's Eye].

You should be comparing the Dragon's Eyes with the two extra sockets from blacksmithing. Initially the swing from an uncommon gem to an epic quality Dragon's Eye is quite large (12 vs 27 - 14 in favour of the JC). Maximum 3 Dragon's Eyes equipped. Total difference 3 times 14 is 42. Not counting meta activation (not having to use a Str/Stam gem).

By the time Epic non-JC-only gems are available this difference is smaller (20 vs 27 - 7 in favour of the JC). Total difference 3 times 7 is 21.

This is actually slightly larger as you can use the 27 Str in a Yellow or Blue slot for metagem activation and socket bonus purposes. Going from 10 Str/15 Stam to 27 Str is a change of 17. If two are used in this purpose you gain 2 times 17, or 34 Str, plus the 20 Str epic to 27 Str JC-epic swing of 7. Grand total 41 Str.

Whereas Blacksmithing is 2 sockets, or with uncommon, non-perfect gems, 24 Str. Epic non-JC gems, 40 Str.

JC definitely has a bigger bonus out the gates, but once epic gems are available, the extra sockets are pretty comparable. JC + BS would indeed be a powerful combination.

Blood was hotfixed to 95% of 3.0 after 3.0.3 was released.


Blood beats Command in dps with all current itemization. Personally for me, Command in a raid is about 80 dps less than Blood, and dps isn't that much of an issue currently.

Aha! Thank you very much for clearing that up for me, and I apologize for my obtusity. That moves BS further in my priorities for my paladin vs. JC. I'm tempted to go dual-crafting, but that's contingent upon me getting a miner alt up that high.

How many paladins have considered Skinning/Leatherworking, by the way?

Ah, cause I was thinking of switching my SoC glyph to the Judgement glyph, if that were the case.

Divine Storm procs Seals. It is better than Consecration.

That is incorrect in comparing 21/50 vs whatever the lvl 80 PvE spec will be.


First off, you lose much more than just DS only going 50 Ret.

While Rawr isn't 100% accurate (it doesn't have the new RV in the public version), DS with the old RV added about 300 dps solo, and would be more raid buffed (maybe 400 dps), so about a 10% decrease in damage.

Also consider that DS is a "smart-heal" and 25% of the damage it does heals the 3 lowest HP people.

If a Ret didn't have 51 points I would kick them out, it is that important.

Taking that same patchwerk fight the three tanks took 2.4 million damage, if 3% would be an absolute value that would reduce damage taken by 72k.

DS healed for 14k.
DS dealt 52k damage. If you include RV and SoM/B procs it might end up with 80k contribution in total, generously approximated. Which then would have meant a loss of 25k damage if you instead spent that mana on Consecration.

So the tanks take 72k more damage, you deal 25k more and heal for 14k. If going by that simple comparason of DS for BoSanc then BoSanc is in my mind the clear winner.


But yes, you lose more by only going 50 points in ret, the comparason was by no means complete. But how much more? It is really worth taking those final points in the ret tree when compared to BoSanc?

Question about Glyphs. I was searching over this thread for information about our glyph choices and ran across this.

Is this still the status quo with any of the many changes that have happened?

I would also be interested in what Minor Glyphs many of you are using. Oh, and of course, only for PvE.

Thank you kindly to everyone who responds. Keep up the good work. These forums are a pleasure to read because of the time and effort all of you put into them!

First time poster long time reader.
I think RV is bugged
I was running some dummy tests today and noticed teat Righteous vengeance is doing 1dmg per tick...

Has anyone else seen this going on. I talked with some other pallies on the server and they are seeing the same thing. Any word?

I assume that because of this tests on dummies are even more inaccurate?

Even looking at Redcape's spreadsheet which takes seal damage into consideration in DS, Consecration still does more DPS by a fair margin. Keep in mind that this doesnt take into effect the 3.0.3 changes, but these changes were intended to take the burst out of our attacks and compensating it with holy bleed damage, so they are generally DPS neutral. Plus all of our seals were dealt a nerf anyways, so this widens the gap between Consecration and DS even further.

I am seriously looking at a BoSanc ret spec.

I dont know if Redcape is working on an updated spreadsheet or not. If not I dont blame him with the frequency and the magnitude of the ret changes.

/emo

I am truly upset that Blizzard/GC set out to improve our class for PVE and PVP viabliity and in the end we end up with even more headaches than we had pre 3.0. Ill eat my words when everyone is level 80 and they sew our balls back on, but given past history with the spec, I wont hold my breath.

/end emo

In what sense? They're accurate for most attacks, just not Righteous Vengeance. So dummy DPS should always be lower than your real DPS, but lower by a consistent amount.

Why choose between DS and Consecrate? You can sustain both with liberal use of Divine Plea, and dropping either out of your rotation sets you back about 400 dps in Naxx gear.

BoSanc is only useful for tanks, precludes you giving them Kings, is pointless if you have a pally tank, only offers an unnecessary tps boost to the other tanks if you have a Disc Priest already in group, and gimps your ability to fill up on dps talents (even moreso if they put Vengeance back to 5 talent points for 15% damage as has been hinted at).

Redcape has been pretty good about spreadsheets, however real world data for me has never said Cons is doing more damage than DS. Rawr says so as well (not accurate either, but close).


I still don't see BoSanc Ret being popular. Affliction Warlocks (used to have 5% less physical damage) were not popular because they lost 200-500 dps over SB spam, and Ret should lose at least that much with only 50 points.


Headaches are worth the cost. Ret is no longer a joke and is very desirable (Being 1 of the 2 "good" replenishment classes, which is a necessary buff for a raid). The issues of the past (Ret being ignored with 10 second CS for too long and Druids outhealing everyone in Arena) should not be around anymore with an active (in the community at least) Lead Developer.

With current 80 gear/talents and Plea, you cannot 100% use both DS and Cons for more than minute.

The BoSanc Ret pallies would have another Ret or Holy Pally with Kings around. If not, they would use Kings instead.

I don't know about you, but I was never bottom of the barrel, more like top 5-6 on fights like Brut pre-3.0, and now I'm #10. We need a buff, and 5 stacking Vengeance is a good STEP in the right direction.

Incase anyone missed it and we can stop people from asking about it / whining about it constantly.

World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums -> ?'s most Paladins are wanting answers to.

GC has now stated that they accidently broke Sanctified Wrath's 50% bypass of Damage Reduction and are looking into what happen to get it fixed.

So, we cleared sunwell and bt in the last 2 nights. I was using JoW. DS + CS + JoB is fine, we dont run out of mana. If I did anything else, yes, mana would drop.

In sunwell, because of incoming AoE dmg, we gain a bit more mana, so I can consecrate a bit more. I did have to pay attention at my mana bar, I was not able to spam consecration, exorcism or holy wrath.

In BT, withouht the incoming aoe dmg, with jow, I could last around 100 secs untill I went oom when using everything. This was with no int gear, 2 t6 piece set bonus, jow and A LOT of haste (with WF, enough to swing my 3.4 speed weapon at 2.3 secs without drums, mongoose proc or hero)

RV seems to be being mitigated by around 5%. The whole sunwell run I lost 4.2% dmg from RV partial resists, but it peaked against Bruts at 6.6%.

Overerall, for fights like Bruts and KJ, I noticed a 400-600 dps loss. I was doing 3.2-3.4k dps untill last week. This week, it went down to 2.8k dps. I was using AW as usual. I did die a couple of times due to AW forberance. People still expect me to bubble, but because the content is on farm, I was using AW intead. When trying new content, I would not be able to use AW, as I would need bubble available.


EDIT: And for those of you wondering why you are seeing so little dmg on lvl 70 dummies (ie, 1 dmg) is because they only have 1hp. Everything else is noted on combat logs as overkill.

EDIT2: In pvp, using pve spec and pve gear, JoL with SoB, I still destroy people just like before. These pvp nerfs did very little to bring ret down in pvp, but hurt us a lot more in pve. As long as I can auto attack + CS + JoB + DS + CS in 6 secs, with everything procing SoB, people will die fast.

Is it just me or is it an incredibly stupid mechanic that we want to take damage (but not too much) in order to increase our dps? Is this something that warriors try to do as well and I should just get used to it or is it another unintended consequence of a class that has developed in a manner similar to English property law?

I am waiting for the hotfixes to settle out with the latest patch before I republish. I will have a new version out this weekend with all updated numbers.

Consecration is higher damage per cast than DS against a single target, even when you account for seals. It does however have substantially lower damage per mana.

You need to be careful about talking about real world data when you don't have a controlled experiment. You can't look at a WWS parse and just add up damage since you are using a priority system and mana is a concern. I assure you that Consecration (given the assumptions of my sheet, which seem pretty reasonable to me) does more damage per cast, but much less damage per mana.

I don't mind the slow damage intake from SoB personally. It seems very much in line with warlock lifetapping, and is easily countered by JoL and ILotP. The issue for me is the massive recoil on JoB. I think it is simply too high for an uncontrolled ability. We can't predict huge crits, and we sure can't stop judging. It would make a lot more sense to make it 10% damage taken per point dealt across the board. It is still a mechanic you have to keep in mind (and is important in pvp) but does not have such a powerful (if random) impact.

I would love help with one thing I may not have time to test: The dot from DS/Judgement. Is it affected by things that increase holy damage? (Earth and Moon, Curse of Shadows, Unholy DK thingy) Do any other raid buffs affect it? If anyone can confirm that for me, it would be awesome. I am assuming it is penalized by the standard 4.5% resist reduction like our other holy attacks and that it can't be initially resisted, please correct me if these are not the case.

Somewhat against the BoSanc idea myself. Mainly due to my opinion that ppl should fill one role to the best of their available abilities and any other problems are secondary and icing on our raiding cake.

That said, what talents are the BoSanc crowd tossing out for the extra blessing? I imagine its dropping RV which is an average loss of 6% overall damage. I hope there's no one crazy enough to suggest dropping the 3% raid haste or Sheath.

Also, if you're willing to really sacrifice dps further, the benefit of the Divine Guardian talent is quite amazing, not to mention stacks with Hand of Sacrifice. For 12 seconds, your maintank takes 60% less damage and the rest of the raid takes 30% less.

That said, a holy paladin can forgo Bacon and go to BoSanc/DG (as well as imp devo aura), leaving you with Kings to bless. If you only have one paladin, Kings is the first choice beyond measure.

Guess Im lucky in the way that I have 3 regular paladins in raid, one of them being protection to start with. "All realities, all dimensions are open to me!"