Unless something fundamental has changed in the game bosses and most trash mobs do not have stats. All they have is health, mana, attack power and armor. Thus Vindication would have no effect in PvE.
It remains a PvP talent, just as it was and should be.
Using pitbull to see the exact mana values, Vindicaiton reduced caster mob mana from 3231 to 2916.
...
I attacked a self-healing mob (treants in NE part of Auchindon crater), applied Vindication, allowed the treant to heal to full, and then watched Vindication fade. When Vindication dropped, the mob % hp dropped from 100% to 96% (there might have been a regrowth tick in there, but I was mostly interested in seeing if it affected HP at all). So the % Sta reduction does work, though it won't be 15% of their total HP
...
Vindication does indeed affect mob stats if the debuff sticks
Vindication does have a PvE effect. I don't expect it to work on any bosses*, but the effect is still there for trash, low level content, and grinding.
*I hear it worked on Nef way back when it was first added - has that been changed?
Increase? You just said you have Shadowfiend. Dont you understand the simple difference between no manaregen and some manaregen? Do you understand what it means to have 0 (zero) mana/5, zero natural regen from talents, zero spirit from gear(Stating this because I dont want to give you backdoors) and zero skils like evocation/lifetap/shadowfiend/shamanisticrage?
I find it rather odd to see you who I consider remotely intelligent person to talk about shadowfiend in same post and then say "I still don't think that's an argument for increased mana regeneration for shadowpriests". You arent making any sense.
Ignoring BoW/SoW/JoW, paladins have "no mana regen".
Ignoring the Shadowfiend, priests have "no mana regen" either. Take away evocation, innervate, mana tide totem, shamanistic rage from their respective classes, and they too have "no mana regen".
Your reason for ignoring the paladin's mana abilities was that those abilities could be negated in PvP by purge/dispel, kiting.
Mearis's point was that the Shadow-fiend *can* be negated in PvP as well. The shadowfiend can be CC'd/killed. Once the cooldown is used, that's it for the S-Priest's mana regen.
PvP counters also exist for all of the other class mana regen abilities - evocation is channeled and vulnerable to stuns/interrupts. Innervate is dispellable. Shamanistic rage mana regen can be limited by kiting.
Do PvP counters mean that our mana regen skills do not exist? What about for grinding, your original argument's focus?
** A quick example of how SoW/JoW can be used while grinding:
- SoW + CS to kill one mob within 30 seconds, regaining some mana. (SoW provides somewhere around 121 mp5 while active)
- JoW the next mob and switch back to SoC R1, or re-use SoW.
Even ignoring spirit regen, your SoW/JoW combo regained more mana than you spent. You give up some damage *now* on one mob, but the mana you regen allows you to kill the next mobs faster, reducing overall grinding downtime.
Lets take example from WoW grinding. Random roll gives us Aether Ray what has Health 5,500 - 5,700. Lets assume I can do 900 dps self buffed on that monster, so it takes me ~7 seconds to kill the mob. Lets make it worst case scenario and say it takes me 14 seconds to kill the monster. What is the difference if I start with JoW instead of JoC in the beginning?
You are completely right Fiola. If you arrange the regen into environment where it theoretically works well. But its completely different from ingame environment and how things work in practise. Judgement of Wisdom is great tool, same can be said for SoW. But they arent properly implemented to be practical. I could say that JoW is perfect regen if I would fight with my bare fists for 10 minutes per monster. But is that contradicting gear improvements where we dont gain any manaregen (unlike shadowpriest who eventually have manacost free spells)?
I'm a raid leader in a horde guild that's currently working on Illidan. One of our paladins has contemplated going Ret once patch 2.3 hits. I'm relatively familiar with the benefits a ret paladin can provide, namely JoW for casters/hunters, a third blessing, 2% dps boost to party via imp sanctity aura, and 3% crit bonus to the raid through judgment of crusader. What I'm unsure of is the amount of DPS I should expect from my Ret pally and which group to put him in. Currently, our damage meters are dominated by rogues: our top 2 rogues are generally 10% above other DPS classes with our 3rd in the top 5. Our melee group consists of 3 rogues, a fury warrior, and an enhancement shaman. The pally is pretty well geared, using mostly TK/Hyjal/BT quality DPS warrior gear and a Torch of the Damned. Considering our raid composition, in which group should I put the Ret pally to best take advantage of his raid benefits? Should I drop a rogue and put him in the melee group, or keep our melee group intact and put him in the tank group with a resto shaman for windfury? Likewise, what type of damage should I expect from our Ret pally assuming that he's well informed/skilled. Equivalent to an enhancement shaman? I understand that the DPS part of my question may be difficult to predict, since 2.3 isn't live yet. If so, please let me know, but I am hoping you guys can give me a rough estimate. Thanks for the help.
Q: What I'm unsure of is the amount of DPS I should expect from my Ret pally.
You are looking for T5/6 geared Ret paladin around 1300-1600 personal DPS*
I do not count PvP geared and gemmed paladin as properly geared. So make sure if he is trying to DPS to gear perfectly like everyone else does. There is no half way. You HAVE to make him understand that pve dps is about tuning your gear to perfect the given job. Starts from proper gems and ends at proper item selections.
Here is addition what support DPS expectations in 2.3 (I know how I perform in live atm). This is only performed in PTR with 1 group and no raid buffs. But as we can see from the rogue DPS. hes clocking close to what todays highend rogues do. About 2000dps. Hence my personal test DPS can be reflected to hes (Using own common sense is adviced, this is only 1 test and not perfect simulation of DPS capabilities). Please take the result as it is. It is ONLY Blasted Lands test, nothing less, nothing more.
Rogue: Full tier 6 all possible BT epics from Illidan etc
Paladin: Full tier 5 + BT epics and TK/SSC
Currently at live servers I am around 1000-1300 dps, so with 2.3 I sould see dramatic increase in DPS due direct damage additions and due threat reduction.
Q: Which group to put him in.
*If hes in melee group.
You will replace 1 of your rogues in melee DPS group since Paladin will give 50-150% more damage from that 1 WF group slot than the rogue (Worst case scenario is dagger rogue). In conjuction the group gains the +2% damage. Its win/win, and your rogue will hopefully get BS from MT group (Lets assume there is 2 warriors or even 1warrior/ druid for crit auta). So the worst rogue from 3 in meele group is removed. To confirm my claims, please take a look at your guild WWS logs and calculate how much your rogues actually benefit from WF.
And 1 thing I want to make sure you understand. Do not EVER judge hes performance from 1 try. Coming from healbot to DPS takes some time to adapt, specially it takes time to adapt to each boss encounter on what is best to do and when. Give him fair opportunity to prove hes stand in farm bosses like Akama, Teron, Anetheron. Make sure he gets fair way to prove what he can do.
Lets take example from WoW grinding. Random roll gives us Aether Ray what has Health 5,500 - 5,700. Lets assume I can do 900 dps self buffed on that monster, so it takes me ~7 seconds to kill the mob. Lets make it worst case scenario and say it takes me 14 seconds to kill the monster. What is the difference if I start with JoW instead of JoC in the beginning?
You are completely right Fiola. If you arrange the regen into environment where it theoretically works well. But its completely different from ingame environment and how things work in practise. Judgement of Wisdom is great tool, same can be said for SoW. But they arent properly implemented to be practical. I could say that JoW is perfect regen if I would fight with my bare fists for 10 minutes per monster. But is that contradicting gear improvements where we dont gain any manaregen (unlike shadowpriest who eventually have manacost free spells)?
Your scenario is as theoretical as mine is, except I think you made up your numbers rather than using actual usage data. But let's play with your "ingame scenario".
You're able to kill an Aether ray in 7 seconds. That's 3 swings, assuming travel time lets your swing timer reset (meaning you kill mobs every 12 seconds or so). What abilities did you use?
CS - with a 10 second CD, you'd get it off once in the 7 seconds you take to kill the mob
JoC - with a 8/10 second CD, you'd get it off once in the 7 seconds you take to kill the mob.
1x CS - 236 mana
1x JoC - 400~ mana including judge and reseal. 300~ mana if you picked up SJ (which you should if you're doing raid DPS or grinding)
Total mana spent: 536 mana - per mob. You spent 7 seconds killing it.
How long does it take a mage or warlock to kill a mob? How much mana do they spend per mob?
Why would I make things up? I know how things work ingame, and I know how things can work in theory. There is no need for making up numbers. And you may want to read the post before replying. Then if you get past the first words, you may want to answer my question. At least my 14sec worst case scenario is closer to the truth than your 30sec, where you said you could gain mana.
But is that contradicting gear improvements where we dont gain any manaregen (unlike shadowpriest who eventually have manacost free spells)?
Perhaps I'm reading too much into the statement about mana free spells, but there is no itemization point in the game where you could say that about a shadow priest DPS rotation. It's unattainable in TBC and there's no reason to believe it'll be attainable in future expansions. While our +dmg will increase in WotLK and beyond (thus increasing the regen that VT's 5% translates to), so will the mana costs on new spell ranks.
Perhaps I'm reading too much into the statement about mana free spells, but there is no itemization point in the game where you could say that about a shadow priest DPS rotation. It's unattainable in TBC and there's no reason to believe it'll be attainable in future expansions. While our +dmg will increase in WotLK and beyond (thus increasing the regen that VT's 5% translates to), so will the mana costs on new spell ranks.
(Yay for .fi)
Common sense is adviced to be used. Your regen increases while your gear improves, while ours doesnt. We dont gain any manaregen from greens to full T6 trough itemization (Exception seals the rule, T6 leggins have grand total of 9 mp5). As said before, no manaregen is a lot different from some manaregen. Not to mention the fact that your gain longevity trough gear improvements where we dont. not only you gain manaregen from items, but also your VT becomes more powerful and your shadow fiend retruns more mana.
Shadowpriest: Items giving manaregen + Shadowfiend gaining power from gear + VT improving trough itemization improvements.
Versus Paladin: No increase in manaregen from any part of itemization, trough any talents or class specific skills.
How long does it take a mage or warlock to kill a mob? How much mana do they spend per mob?
Completely false analogy. Both those classes have gear and talents that actively regen while in combat (or in the case of warlocks just kill themselves for more mana). The only piece of regen gear Ret pallys have in bleeding edge is the few Mp5 off the [Lightbringer Greaves] and the two piece Tier 6 bonus. You can't compare the classes like that. Not to mention most Ret Pallys wear warrior gear, which has no IMT or SPI to help with longevity.
Why would I make things up? I know how things work ingame, and I know how things can work in theory. There is no need for making up numbers. And you may want to read the post before replying. Then if you get past the first words, you may want to answer my question. At least my 14sec worst case scenario is closer to the truth than your 30sec, where you said you could gain mana.
900 self-buffed DPS? Post-mitigation? I highly doubt that.
How long do you think it'll take to kill a mob using 1x SoW, 1x SoC, and Auto? 14 seconds even with the DPS loss?
28 seconds of auto-attack with SoW (121 MP5 @ 12 PPM) gives us: 678 mana
28 seconds of BoW (36 MP5): 202 mana
2 ticks of spirit regen. (You'd have to be trying to not get any spirit regen in that rotation): 78 mana
total regen: 886 mana
Gained mana there, and you're killing a mob every 14 seconds. If you still have the ultimate grinding trinket [Power Infused Mushroom], you'd gain another 400 mana doing that.
The point of the example is that you let yourself get some mana regeneration every few mobs. It's like building a raid DPS rotation, except that you're maximizing sustainability rather than DPS.
Once you factor in travel time, spirit regen, and so on, it's easy to build a grinding rotation that has no downtime.
Completely false analogy. Both those classes have gear and talents that actively regen while in combat (or in the case of warlocks just kill themselves for more mana). The only piece of regen gear Ret pallys have in bleeding edge is the few Mp5 off the [Lightbringer Greaves] and the two piece Tier 6 bonus. You can't compare the classes like that. Not to mention most Ret Pallys wear warrior gear, which has no IMT or SPI to help with longevity.
If we're going to say that paladins don't grind effectively enough compared to other classes, it'd help to define what it means to "grind effectively".
You don't want to compare mana costs, fine.
How much time do they take to kill per mob? Do they have 0 downtime? How many mobs can they kill before they need to evocate/lifetap-drain/drink?
Or is comparing Paladin time to kill and Warlock/Mage time to kill a false analogy?
EDIT:
And how do paladins not have gear and talents that actively regen in combat? SoW/JoW *can't* be used out side of combat! SJ/Benediction are mana cost reducing talents on abilities that are only used in combat.
28 seconds of auto-attack with SoW (121 MP5 @ 12 PPM) gives us: 678 mana
28 seconds of BoW (36 MP5): 202 mana
2 ticks of spirit regen. (You'd have to be trying to not get any spirit regen in that rotation): 78 mana
total regen: 886 mana
Gained mana there, and you're killing a mob every 14 seconds. If you still have the ultimate grinding trinket [Power Infused Mushroom], you'd gain another 400 mana doing that.
The point of the example is that you let yourself get some mana regeneration every few mobs. It's like building a raid DPS rotation, except that you're maximizing sustainability rather than DPS.
Once you factor in travel time, spirit regen, and so on, it's easy to build a grinding rotation that has no downtime.
Your logic is flawed because you expect the time being irrelevant. If it takes paladin 30 minutes to kill stuff that someone else kills in 10 minutes, it doesnt make things any better if you are "Grinding without downtime". Could you please be a bit more realistic? And btw, 14sec for 5600 health is 400 dps. Why do I have to tell you these? You can easily calculate them all. or do you think leaving some things out somehow helps your case?
If we're going to say that paladins don't grind effectively enough compared to other classes, it'd help to define what it means to "grind effectively".
Kill a good number of mobs with little time wasted eating/drinking. Numbers will vary from person to person.
Originally Posted by Fiola
You don't want to compare mana costs, fine.
How much time do they take to kill per mob? Do they have 0 downtime?
I'm not saying they don't spend a lot more mana to kill a mob than a ret pally. Our spells are pretty cheap compared to most mage and warlock spells. But their general itemization gives them more intellect, and both of them have powerful regen capabilities in their gear, talents, or baseline class. A ret paladins form of regen (BoW/JoW) costs more than its worth against most farming mobs, and is nearly useless in PvP due to every class and their brother having a dispel.
The only class in this game that has 0 downtime is a Warlock (BM hunters come very close though). The ability to Dark Pact/Lifetap back to full mana while running between kills and then drain tanking back to full lets them grind indefinently long.
Originally Posted by Fiola
Or is comparing Paladin time to kill and Warlock/Mage time to kill a false analogy?
Its not really a time to kill question (I would think with the amount of burst we have it would be quicker for a et pally to kill something than say an Affliction lock). Its more like a time to OOM for soloing.
If we're going to say that paladins don't grind effectively enough compared to other classes, it'd help to define what it means to "grind effectively".
You don't want to compare mana costs, fine.
How much time do they take to kill per mob? Do they have 0 downtime? How many mobs can they kill before they need to evocate/lifetap-drain/drink?
Or is comparing Paladin time to kill and Warlock/Mage time to kill a false analogy?
I know that I can grind about 4-5 times more monsters with my Karazhan geared warlock than my T6 geared paladin. Does that ring any bell to you? And thats without any downtime. Why does paladin have healing spells? Are they not to be used? How efficient grinder you are if you cast 2 HL every now and then? how much you gain from doing it compared to time lost due no manaregen?
Why I get the feeling that you are just arguing over this because you are theoretically correct. And you dont care about reasonable class balance because you can just be against the ingame performance in theoretical level.
...
Its not really a time to kill question (I would think with the amount of burst we have it would be quicker for a et pally to kill something than say an Affliction lock). Its more like a time to OOM for soloing.
Time to kill while using a grinding rotation that minimizes downtime.
Originally Posted by Cromfel
I know that I can grind about 4-5 times more monsters with my Karazhan geared warlock than my T6 geared paladin. Does that ring any bell to you? And thats without any downtime. Why does paladin have healing spells? Are they not to be used? How efficient grinder you are if you cast 2 HL every now and then? how much you gain from doing it compared to time lost due no manaregen?
Why I get the feeling that you are just arguing over this because you are theoretically correct. And you dont care about reasonable class balance because you can just be against the ingame performance in theoretical level.
Are we balanced if we grind as fast as warlocks?
Do all other classes grind as fast as warlocks?
Since you bring up "reasonable class balance", where does a Ret paladin "deserve" to be relative to the other 8 classes in grinding? Where does the Ret paladin currently rank? Where does the Ret paladin deserve to rank?
Are we aiming for "reasonable personal grinding speed", or "grinds as fast as XYZ class"?
As for your feelings about what I'm trying to do: I want you to defend your position (that we need more buffs). I want you to show that you've actually put thought into how the class is "broken" or "flawed" before lobbying for class changes.
When I read your posts on how the paladin class is lacking in the area of grinding, I feel that you're not trying hard enough, or that you have unreasonable expectations. What are you expectations, and how has the class failed to meet those expectations despite your efforts?
And how do paladins not have gear and talents that actively regen in combat? SoW/JoW *can't* be used out side of combat! SJ/Benediction are mana cost reducing talents on abilities that are only used in combat.
How long does green geared Paladin with 6000 mana fight compared to full epic paladin with 6000 mana?
0 seconds difference
How long does green geared SPriest with 6000 mana fight compared to full epic SPriest with 6000 mana?
X seconds difference
Are we balanced if we grind as fast as warlocks?
Do all other classes grind as fast as warlocks?
How we should perform compared to those? 10%? 50%? Equally? Im saying we currently perform a bit too low, we could use some ways to give more goals for itemization improvements. You say we are performing fine. We both have our opinion.
As for your feelings about what I'm trying to do: I want you to defend your position (that we need more buffs). I want you to show that you've actually put thought into how the class is "broken" or "flawed" before lobbying for class changes.
I have done my share of ingame pvp/pve and mana consumption tests, have you? I havent seen your tests anywhere that support your claims, but I have shown my tests and explained them. Where are your tests that declare that we are performing well compared to other classes? I suppose you say next that we are working correctly as our best DPS seal is Rank 1 SoC, without actually thinking what it means from game design point of view.
How long does green geared Paladin with 6000 mana fight compared to full epic paladin with 6000 mana?
0 seconds
What?
The full epic paladin can kill the same mob in a shorter period of time, meaning he spends more time regenning while he travels between mobs. His damage efficiency should also be higher, allowing him to do more damage per mana point spent. His higher DPS output means he can kill more mobs in the same period of time as the green pally does.
He can also grind higher level mobs (L70-72) at the same speed the green paladin grinds lower level (ie:65~68) mobs, allowing him higher returns for time spent grinding.
How we should perform compared to those? 10%? 50%? Equally? Im saying we currently perform a bit too low, we could use some ways to give more goals for itemization improvements. You say we are performing fine. We both have our opinion.
What is your expectation? What level of grinding speed is "fine"?
You say it's too low - so what's "just right"? Do you have an objective criteria? "XYZ class/spec can grind faster" does not tell us much, especially since you chose a class reknown for its solo effectiveness.
Where do we stand in comparison in other classes? Where should we stand in comparison to other classes?
I have done my share of ingame pvp/pve and mana consumption tests, have you? I havent seen your tests anywhere that support your claims, but I have shown my tests and explained them. Where are your tests that declare that we are performing well compared to other classes? I suppose you say next that we are working correctly as our best DPS seal is Rank 1 SoC, without actually thinking what it means from game design point of view.
I've focused on my experience: Ret palading grinding. I've grinded my way to exalted with a few TBC factions: Kurenai, Netherwing, and Sporegarr stand out as mindless mob-killing grinds.
It's why I'm suggesting things like BoW, spirit regen, and various other things. I had to develop these sort of techniques in order to grind more effectively/efficiently (drinking after every 2~3 mobs was unacceptable).
I've certainly seen very tangible improvement in grinding speed as I upgraded from L70 blues to L70 epics. (going from LC exalted [Trident of the Outcast Tribe] -> [Hammer of the Naaru] stands out in particular)
So yo dont actually have any theorycraft or experience about other classes to back up with? Do you have alts or have you played other classes at same level of gear to have objective understanding on other classes?
I have also done theorycraft inspecting our mana consumption and comparing it to our manaregen and evaluating those to ingame environments in theoretical. If you dont have anything but your arrogance against me, we have little to nothing to discuss here. Does your reputation grind reflect our state in highend PvE boss encounters? PvP arenas? Do you have any theorycraft attempting to evaluate our situation or is it all just how you think it works?
So yo dont actually have any theorycraft or experience about other classes to back up with? Do you have alts or have you played other classes at same level of gear to have objective understanding on other classes?
When did this turn into an epeen contest?
We're discussing Ret paladin grinding. You have 2 L70 alts that allow you to compare the grinding speed of said classes to a paladin. Good for your perspective.
Said classes (S-Priest/Warlock) do grind faster. I'd expect that - they're DPS class/specs, and damage done is one of the major factors of grinding speed. But what does that say about Ret paladin grinding speed? What's the % of XYZ class grinding speed that you expect?
I have also done theorycraft inspecting our mana consumption and comparing it to our manaregen and evaluating those to ingame environments in theoretical and ingame point of view. If you dont have anything but your arrogance against me, we have little to nothing to discuss here. Does your reputation grind reflect our state in highend PvE boss encounters? PvP arenas? Do you have any theorycraft attempting to evaluate our situation or is it all just how you think it works?
Weren't we talking about grinding speed just now?
I've spent a ridiculous number of game hours grinding with my Ret paladin. Is that not relevant to that discussion? Must I be in a T6 guild that kills Illidan, decked out with the best of gear available in WoW, in order to qualify for commenting on Ret paladin grinding speed?
Does the gear we wear improve the quality of our feedback? Your experience doesn't override mine any more than mine overrides yours.
If you think my theorycraft is so completely flawed, why don't you show me the errors in my math or assumptions? Or am I arrogant for using math to back up my arguments?
Where is the math you talk of? I havent seen you doing anything that would evaluate our mana consumption. While using SoW verus damage lost, while using JoW verus damage lost and mana lost. Where is this math you speak of?
And stop making it e-peen meter. You asked question about my ways of evaluating our mana consumption and I gave them. Why start craptalking me when I just answer to your question? You said you understand how things work for other classes also, yet you dont have any experience about them? Would my point be valid if I had green geared alts? Item level has nothing to do with results as we know our manaregen does not improve over gear upgrades unlike warlocks or shadowpriests. If you dont have any idea how they work, why are you commenting?
Edit: Actually this conversation is horribly boring and totally stupid. Im done here. There is absolutely no reason to continue as we arent getting anywhere. Feel free to give me PM if you have any further questions.
Where is the math you talk of? I havent seen you doing anything that would evaluate our mana consumption. While using SoW verus damage lost, while using JoW verus damage lost and mana lost. Where is this math you speak of?
And stop making it e-peen meter. You asked question about my proofs and I gave them. Why start craptalking me when I just answer to your question?
I did do a brief math post. You dismissed it by saying it took too long a time period, while not actually disproving it. (The goal in grinding isn't the highest possible DPS - it's sustainability)
If you can't even disprove a preliminary number based on flawed assumptions (like 900 self-buffed DPS post-mitigation on an undebuffed higher level target), what does that say about *your* knowledge of grinding theorycraft?
Furthermore, why should I honor a made-up number with an hour or two of math?
If you're willing to set out an objective target (100% sustained no-downtime grinding, for one example), I'll happily oblige and show how you can build such a rotation.
As for e-peenery, you're putting up your S-Priest and warlock as proof that you have Ret grinding credentials. I didn't ask you to show that you've spent a lot of time on other classes. I wanted you to back up your claim that "Ret doesn't grind well", preferably by showing that you've put thought into grinding efficiently with Ret.
All you've shown so far is that you've grinded with a warlock/S-Priest (how about a Disc/Holy priest?), while not specifying *how* Ret grinds too slowly.
The fact that you can't even come up with a "realistic" grind rotation to counter my brief simplistic model (on how SoW/JoW can be a mana-regaining cycle) is telling. You run OOM while grinding on your Ret paladin and therefore it must be a class problem; god forbid someone questions *what* your grinding playstyle is.
You can draw what ever conclusions you want. Its simplified ofcourse, as you personally said...
Furthermore, why should I honor a made-up number with an hour or two of math?
And why exactly you expect me to be entitled to do it for you? In my eyes you are only trolling just because you can be against me. Nothing less, nothing more. Only because internet gives you that option behind anonymity. If you arent willing to join up for the manaregen conversation by proving your stand, then stay out of it. None at these forums are entitled to prove your wild assumptions wrong, if you spam something completely based on your "long grinding for reputation".
You can draw what ever conclusions you want. Its simplified ofcourse, as you personally said...
And why exactly you expect me to be entitled to do it for you? In my eyes you are only trolling just because you can be against me. Nothing less, nothing more. Only because internet gives you that option behind anonymity. If you arent willing to join up for the manaregen conversation by proving your stand, then stay out of it. None at these forums are entitled to prove your wild assumptions wrong, if you spam something completely based on your "long grinding for reputation".
Why is a decrease in dps versus a longevity issue a problem? I have a warlock alt, and I can only grind indefinitely if I'm draining life, which certainly is not my highest dps spell.
My warrior doesn't grind nearly as efficiently as my pally did (he's only level 62 atm), and if you factor in the gy-runs from o-shit moments than occasionally happen, it gets even worse. I'd imagine it's the same with rogues. Why aren't you comparing pallies to these classes instead of warlocks, the most overpowered class in the game?
Without being too impertinent, may I ask why you so strongly feel entitled to be better at grinding? I have a prot pally, and I'm basically useless in PVP and grinding. But, I do a very effective and fulfilling job in PVE groups, and I knew going in that PVP and grinding were not going to be things I would even be nominally good at. Healers have even a worse time of it than us tanks.
I dont know about all classes but I play a warlock and a rogue and I have made the same observation as Cromfel. Ret grinding has to many downtimes compared to other dps classes. Holy priest and resto druids have the same problems like holy paladin which are adressed in the new patch.
11/12/07, 12:34 PM
