Prinsesa

Note that the Seal of Blood Glyph's bonus to Spiritual Attunement is multiplicative, similar the to 4T6 Prot bonus, increasing SA's mana return from 10% to 11%.

In contrast, the Glyph of Spiritual Attunement is an additive bonus (note the difference in wording), increasing SA's mana return from 10% to 12%.

This makes the SA Glyph unequivocally better, since it provides a greater bonus and is up all of time, even in situations where you might not want to use Seal of Blood for whatever reason.

"We do want Sanctuary to be the tanking seal"

- Ghostcrawler

 

Aurarius

Hrm, good point Prinsesa. I didn't realize the wording on that Glyph. Why would anyone ever take that? Heh.

*EDIT*

Updating with some napkin math I just did.

Mana spent (2 Minute rotation, maximum output assumed)
14% Re-seal
8% * 20 Crusader Strikes
12% * 12 Divine Storms
5% * 15 Judgements

Total Mana % Out in 2 mins = 393%

Mana Gained
.25% * 120 (Replenishment)
15% * 12 (Judgements of the Wise)
25% * 2 (Divine Plea)
~18% (this is an estimate from some WWS, for Judgement of Wisdom)

Total Mana % Gain in 2 mins = 278%

So, that leaves us with 393%-278% = 115% mana lost over a 2 minute cycle.

So, working from that, and assuming we have a ~5k mana pool wearing no int gear (I forget the exact number at 80, somebody had it here earlier) that means we need 5750 mana every 2 minutes to keep this rotation up without issue. Which corresponds (without Glyphs) to us losing 57,500 health from seals/judgement of blood.

To get a rough idea of this at 80 I'm gonna look at Valerys' WWS from Brut. The WWS suggests he took 38,503 damage from his seals/judges. This suggests that it is feasible to reach the feedback damage necessary to maintain bigger dps cycles depending on our attack power and weapon (the coefficients on blood rely on these). With some Glyphs to drop costs on Crusader Strike and my obvious mistake of not letting judgement of wisdom proc off of crusader strikes and divine storms factored in along with mana spring you can see where we might get to a point where once again mana is no longer an issue.

Now this is where I'm gonna have to stop for now. I don't know enough about level 80 weapons to get their range out, or level 80 stats people are gonna have. As a result, I'm not able to give a rough estimate of what the value of AP that would allow for this boundless mana cycle. If anyone could point me in that direction I'll try to wrap this up and get a serious value out where our AP opens the door to spamming more abilities.

And on a completely unrelated note: I have to say, it's slightly frustrating that in order to do sustainable DPS we need outside heals constantly.

 

Merovengian

I concur that this is happening, and at a rather alarming rate. After a few hours of farm raiding tonite i had gone thru 14 mana pots, this using a standard judge/cs/ds fc-fs rotation WITHOUT consecration or exorcism/hw. Laughable compared to what we used to down admitedly, but it marks the first occasion which ive had to chug with regularity since 3.0.

I believe this may be happening if u cast judgement and immediately spam CS as well, ill see about getting a WWS for the exact miss rates, but its high enough to be noticeable when we are supposedly hitcapped.

 

Arty

I really hope this is just mistake on blizzards part. I mean is it right to have a glyph that is on all the time be twice as effective as a situational glyph that requires a certain seal active to take effect?

But thinking about the subject of mana, I really don't think I will be using either of these glyphs for raiding. I don't really know what it will be like at 80 but right now I really don't seem to have a problem with mana at all, with the AoE damage in raids.

 

Fqubed

Judgement glyph is the one you should always have. 10% damage on your best DPS and utility ability is by far greater than 2% extra mana from heals, that while usefull is situational (and going from some of the wws, 14k +2% is 17k mana regen, not a number that is going to save us if we are broken).

 

eMagdAeH

I believe Glyph of Judgment is a given for everyone on these boards. Glyph of Consecration seems to be another priority, but I would love to get some numbers confirmation on this one.

It is the third Glyph that everyone is trying to theorycraft out, personally I'm completely torn between Crusader and SA. Something tells me I'm just going to have to run tests on both when I get to 80. Numbers look good here for SA, but it's tough to go off of napkin math when we don't have the actual game to test it in. Was anyone able to get some solid numbers on beta before it closed in this regard?

 

Musclebound

I'm merely throwing it out there but would it seem practical to use Glyph of Sense Undead in Naxxramas for a minor? As of right now the other minor glyphs I've seen are kind of bland as far as Retribution is concerned and while I sort of chuckled at the absurdity of the glyph to begin with, most (if not all) of Naxx is undead anyway, so it doesn't seem as ridiculous as I first thought. The alternatives, and I'm going strictly based on what's available at 70, don't seem to be all that much better.

As for majors, the Crusader Strike glyph caught my eye, but other than that nothing really stands out. At this stage the change they offer is pretty minuscule, a minor change to maybe free up a few talent points or offer some more convenience than anything else.

 

Selenia

Sense Undead would be a possible inclusion even if there were three other good options for your minor slots.

Since there aren't, it's pretty much a no-brainer.

 

• Arikah

Seems i can't find the parses from our beta naxx . To give you some (very) rough numbers to work with i seem to recall each boss fight lasting an average of 4 minutes (this was in ugly premade pvp gear, actual results may vary). Based on fight mechanics, and the intelligence of your raid, fights with random splash aoe damage are potentially Grobbulus, Thaddius, Faerlina, Loatheb, 4H, Saph and KT. Keep reading for my conclusion on SA..

Now sorry for the delay in sunwell parse, seems our parse took 3 days to go through...
WWS Loading...

For the entire night, I honestly can't say i had mana troubles anywhere except the twins gauntlet, due to mana burns. I did go in prepared to use dark runes and mana pots, but turns out they were not used at all, I never felt my mana dip low enough to panic. For brut specifically, I ended the 2.5 minute fight at 66% mana, going full blast all the way like i normally do (including a couple holy wraths).. the SA return over that short time from my blood recoil alone (no burns) gave me roughly 3400 mana. Now look at the damage income and my total recoil is sitting at 40.5k damage, which should have given me back 4050 SA mana but because of other mana sources some of it (~650 mana, 16%) went wasted - this means that i was actually at 100% mana several times in the fight. Now compare that to an aoe fight like KJ, where I had ~83k incoming damage, and 8k mana returned from SA. Again running on full blast, but still at 100% mana at least twice in the fight, just less wasted SA mana (~300, 4%?). These SA numbers are consistent with last week (http://wowwebstats.com/h3t1jzmhznrv5...x12d6bbd#buffs, bugged jow in effect) which leads me to believe that on average 10% of SA return is wasted, and counting on no random aoe, only on blood/martyr recoil, your SA returns should be a number roughly equal (+/- 10%) to your DPS. Prove it wrong if you like, but I'm seeing consistent % returns from comparing the wws parses we have here (avituus', valerys), along with my own from the past couple weeks; the +/- seems largely dependent on hit/expertise cap and being aggressive with mana (try to stay under 100% at all times).

Speaking of hit cap, personally my ghost hit has up and vanished... last week i missed a few swings with 100 hit rating, this week i missed nothing with 149 hit rating.

 

Kasac

What is the new rotation i should be using? Right now I'm using Crusader Strike, Judgment of Blood, Consecrate, Divine Storm. From there on its first come first serve, with a few exceptions; if two spells are comming off cooldown within one second of each other i will always use the one with a shorter cool down first.

Am I doing this right or is there a better rotation to maximize my dps?

Also can you tell me if there are better options for my spec or did I do it right.

The World of Warcraft Armory

 

Aurarius

Interesting conclusion Arikah. If this is in fact the case (which at least empirically you've shown) and pushing divine plea into the mix it's getting somewhat harder to worry about mana consumption rates. Our DPS just has to reach roughly 3,000 then you're set. Throw in other buffs and we can put whatever else is necessary out (Hammer of Wrath, Exorcism, et al) without too much cause for concern.

 

Tromeo

Uncontrolled self heal from Divine Storm would mean no gain from SA too.

 

JettJaguar

Quick napkin math: If you account for base int and raid buffs (ai + kings) and the mana returns based on total mana vs. base mana (JotW only), you will find yourself only ~2540 mana short rather than the ~5060 that you project.

Assumptions: 4394 base mana, 5644 "nekkid" mana at 80, 78 int from ai + kings.

Edit: Buffed, you should be about 7k mana.

 

Valerys

Just wanted to point out here that this napkin math (and others like it) fails to account for GCDs. Simply put, you will never be able to spam that number of abilities within 2 minutes, simply because there will be many clashing GCDs in that period.

 

Selenia

Happened for me without any spamming of CS. Only way to prevent it for me seemed to be not hitting judgement immediately as it came off cooldown. Which is not exactly an optimal solution.

[edit]Noticed the same happening when I duelled another paladin. Several times Judgement just plain didn't do anything. Wasn't a miss, it just never happened.

I've never noticed this happening when out of a raid though. Could that have something to do with it?[/edit]

 

Merovengian

Still does it while doing dailies, at least to me.

And on an embarassing note, while dueling a boomkin earlier today not only did the Judgement 'fail' so did the CS. *cough nerf trees cough* Im considering adopting some sort of anti-clip rotation until this issue is resolved.

Interested to hear from others on this issue, or optimally, some obscure blue post which i missed.

EDIT: Could this be a side effect of the 100% judgement hit hotfix? I admit I am clueless when it comes to programming code, but this seems a logical place to start.

 

Redcape

For all those interested in level 80 dps calculations, here is the latest copy of my spreadsheet.

->Spreadsheet<-

It is updated with the 3.03 changes to RV, AoW, and Seals/Judgements. My numbers for JoB I got by empirical testing, so while I am sure they are extremely close, they are probably off by a very tiny fraction. If anyone has perfect numbers please let me know and I can have them in for the next edition.

I believe every source of mana and every raidbuff is accounted for, so these numbers should be as perfect as the gear/rotation information fed into the sheet is.

I will be adding a gear section in the next edition to allow people to enter each of their pieces of gear separately if they wish, but I won't be creating a full gear database. If you have any ideas/suggestions for that implementation shoot me a PM.

 

CaptBooyah

Not to mention the self-healing from Judgment of Light. Solved by just not being the one to judge light, but why would you when the retadin is most likely going to have the most AP to make it scale more.

I found myself running out of mana at 4-5mins into the Brut fight. But then I was also using holy wrath where I could and I dont have a 2pc to rely on.

 

Bunni

I think for much the same reason my Shadow Priest ran without Imp VE for most of TBC (I know the situation with threat and spell mechanics aren't the same going into WotLK). Judgment of Light is a nice amount of buffer healing but outside of gimmick fights there is no point in nerfing your own performance for it. I say that as someone that spends more time making bars go up than down. If I found out (as a healer) that any of our Shadow Priests or Ret Paladins was limiting their own performance to help improve VE/Judgment I would let them know they were free to stop unless asked because it's necessary for some reason.

 

CaptBooyah

Well, it only becomes an issue in a long fight with no aoe damage that the paladin can take to be healed. Although high judgment recoil damage + divine plea is most likely going to provide most of the mana we need.

Aside from potential mana issues (which we can manage), a retadin should have no problem using JoL for the good of the raid. Especially now when it also procs from ranged attacks.

 

Wrathblood

moderators, please delete

 

Fiola

On random judgement failure - I particularly notice this in PvP when I cast Judgement at the same time as I'm CC'd - Judgement will go on cooldown, but no damage or debuff will land.

That's a little different from what others are reporting (since I doubt you get sheeped/stunned much while grinding), but it's probably related.

 

steenkie

I ran kara 2 nights ago in 1hour 15 min. I never ran out of mana spamming all available abilities. Twice during trash I drank to full but it was not neccessary.


After, I PVPed for aprox 8ish hours and 6 hours last night. Multiple times Judgement just did not do anything. It did not report a miss or show up in combat log.

I attempted to Isolate possible issues with the following.

• Stoppped using my AW/Judgement macro - did not resolve issue
• Stopped using CS directly after a judgement - did not resolve issue
• Judged during CC - issue occurred but not consistantly enough to rule out latency
• Only used judgement during combat - Issue appeared to occur at random. Cooldown insued with no display in combat log
• Judged with all 3 types - Type of Judgement does not appear to change the result

During the judging period where I ONLY judged targets in PVP. These numbers were manually counted and entered into a simple xls file by alt-tabbing after each judgement and the result. I have a separate chat pane for damage I do. Judgements are included and are time stamped.

125 Judgements of Light
7 resulted in cooldown with no list in combat log - recount only showed 118 judgements
125 Judgements of Wisdom
13 resulted in cooldown with no list in combat log - recount only showed 112 judgements
125 judgements of justice
8 resulted in cooldown with no list in combat log - recount only showed 117 judgements


I assume that recount is only responding to information counted from combat log? These do not appear to be counted as a miss but rather a ghost cooldown where global/ability cooldowns are triggered but nothing happens.

Is anyone else finding similar issues?

**I did not keep similar tracking during PVE so it is very likely it also happens in PVE.

 

Saltycracker

Judgment of Light is counter intuitive for a Ret paladin to use for 2 reasons:

1) JoL self heals do not activate Spiritual Attunement. If a Ret judges Wisdom they are sure to get mana back rather than relying on a Holy keeping up the judgment.

2) JoL is extra threat that we dont need, especially on fights with high raid damage. I was offtanking Felmyst as prot last night doing nothing but judging light on the boss and I pulled aggro off the main tank. A prot paladin would be much better off judging this.

Now, the Ret paladin is the best candidate to judge it given that ours scales better, but these externalities are something to consider.

 

Merovengian

Its called HoSalv. /targetself=cast

If youre pulling aggro from the raid healing of JoL you need to Gkick your MT.