eMagdAeH

Not to my knowledge, anyone have a blue post or data tested in game on this? It wouldn't make much sense though since it is considered a heal you cast on yourself versus another paladin's JoL counts as a heal cast by them on you.

 

Starfox

307%? pretty flawed math.
CS: 110% Wpndmg, +10% TAoW
DS: 100% Wpndmg, +10% TAoW, 40% DoT on crit

0% crit, easy ;x
110% * 1.1 = 121% Wpndmg > 110% Wpndmg

100% crit

CS: 110% * 1.1 * 2 = 242% Wpndmg
DS: 100% * 1.1 * 2 * 1.4 = 308% Wpndmg

242% < 308%

The intersection is at ~29.xx% crit, Crusade/Vengeance/SwiftRetribution are left out because if those 15% are multiplicative they would be the same on both sites, and additive to 110% for CS would lower the intersection point even more.

CS: (110% +3% +3% +9%) * 1.1 * 2 = 275% Wpndmg
DS: (100% +3% +3% +9%) * 1.1 * 2 * 1.4 = 354.2% Wpndmg

Intersection where DS takes over: 27.78% crit


But yea, if you got the CS=+AP ilbram it is probably best to get max uptime on the buff

Hello.
Light the fuse.
For all my homies.
Do not run, we are your friends.

 

• Avitus

I had to cringe while reading this.

Starfox you're talking about damage per cast (which as mentioned dozens of times before is completely irrelevant), while frmorrison is talking about damage over time ("DPS"). Please actually read what people are saying instead of talking past each other.

frmorrison is correct, you always use CS over DS regardless of crit rate. If you take the limit of CS casts/DS casts ("5/3") and try to equate when 3 DS will be worth more than 5 CS with variable crit rate, the answer is never. Hence CS will always have priority, regardless of your crit rate.


Edit:

For reference, the full explanation is here: Retribution DPS Theorycraft and the math for it can be found here: Retribution DPS Theorycraft

 

Bruencairn

DPS is what matters rather than damage per cast.
That being said the original calculated intersection we are quoting was, I'm pretty sure, before the 40% dot and before the 2pct7 bonus. Assuming your numbers are right it's pretty easy to fix up. Just divide your CS by 6.5 and your DS by 10.5 giving a rough intersection of 44-45%crit before 2pc t7.

It seams that this number might well be achievable come wrath especially since every %extra dmg such as meta gem, sunders etc push this intersection point lower. It might be worth quickly reopening and redoing the calculation in more detail(for dps not for damage per cast obviously) with and without the 2pc t7 just to be sure. If nothing else the FCFS priority might very well change during AW if you have 2pct7.

 

• Avitus

They did include the 40% dot, but not the 2pct7 bonus (+10% to DS damage). However still, even with the bonus, CS DPS will always be ahead, regardless of crit rate.

 

Kinmaul

Maybe I'm just going crazy, but after raiding and testing this a bit something is definately wrong. I was wondering if any other Ret paladins have noticed this so I'm posting this here to get more feedback.

Observation:
If you are spamming your Judgement hotkey while it's on cd and it comes up the spell will sometimes 'fizzle'. The animation goes off, you get charged the mana, but no damage is done, no judgement effect is placed upon the boss, and JotW does not proc. The only problem is that I cannot consistantly reproduce the bug. I'm going to spend some time on the test dummies and see if I can get more consistant results. Sometimes the bug crops up a bunch and other times it's fine. However this completely destroys my dps when the bug does crop up. I did 2300 dps on Brut last night which is only around 100 dps more than what I was doing pre-3.0; normally I'm sitting at around ~3k dps since the patch.

Does this happen to anyone else? Also I have only been using JoW. I haven't ran any tests with JoL/JoJ at all yet.

Edit:
I also threw up a post on the Blizzard forums earlier here and it seems like other people are having the same problem.

 

Mearis

This is a wierd bug that strikes priests as well. For example, if you spam fear right after a stun or right after a GCD, sometimes the fear animation will go off, fear gets the cooldown, but nobody gets feared - you don't even get a resist message.

You can also see it sometimes if you spam mindblast / shadow word death, sometimes if you hit the SW: D too soon after you hit the mindblast button, you can get a wierd effect where the SW: D goes off, but the mindblast does not.

My hypothesis is that it has to do with your client believing you are out of the GCD and the server not believing you, but I haven't really been able to narrow it down.

<manly> then my sister calls and proposes the one thing that has never before occured in my entire life

 

Nhul

The Judgment bug has been reported and noted by Blizzard. It happens far to often to be ignored.

 

Babathong

This is a bit off topic from some of the recent posts, but I am curious to see what some of your thoughts are. Now that the stat prioritizing has been reworked to some degree, haste has taken a significant dive in efficiency. At least this is the impression Iv been under thus far. Before 3.0 haste for ret pallies was awesome, especially one that used SoB. From the posts that Iv read so far on stat priority, haste is almost dead last after 3.0.

With that said, why in the world is there so much haste on all of the ret pally T7 gear??? I was shocked to see it on almost every piece in the set. I am starting to think that they developed the gear pre 3.0 when haste was actually good....lol.

Does anyone know why our gear is stat prioritized like this????

 

• Avitus

The thing is after Str (with insane gains) and Hit/Expertise (which both have caps), pretty much all stats for us have become very lackluster (haste gone down with all our instant attacks, armor pen gone way down considering we do ~50/50 holy damage now compared to the traditional 25-30/70-75). As a matter of fact, they've become so laughably bad you gain about the same from spelldamage point to point (Redcape's sheet). Crit is actually surprisingly better now even.

At the same time, they can't just have 1 stat on our gear (Strength) since we'd also lose considering splitting stats allows you to have more from an itemvalue.



A slightly different question out of this is: Is really Haste/ArmorPen/etc. that bad or is Strength just too good, since our complete "world view" on stats is fixated on comparing stats to what we gain from Strength.

It would be interesting to compare our gains from stats to how much Warriors/DKs (our closest relatives) gain from Haste, Armor Pen and so forth to ultimately be able to guestimate how well we scale in comparison.

 

Kinmaul

Well thats good to hear and hopefully they get a fix working for it asap. How long has this been going on for? I didn't notice anything different until just recently.

 

Babathong

Well first off, Im glad your the one who responded. I was actually hoping Id get you to comment on this. I see what your saying about not being to able have just one stat on our gear. However, they have just put so much haste on the
T7 stuff that its comical. I mean Str and Stam are on everything, and then Haste, Crit, and Hit are spread across the 7 items, with Haste being the most popular. I just have this feeling that the developers created the itemization pre 3.0 when Haste was good. I remember when the gear was first released and I was so happy to finally see haste on our gear. All those feelings have gone down the tubes.

I guess I just hope to see some better itemization as the patches come out and the further set tokens are released. I agree that once they see how we scale with haste/ArP in comparison to warriors and DK's things should change.

 

• frmorrison

Strength and Crit are by far the best stats, but they want to have room to grow, so they make T7 weaker than T8 and T9.

The devs know str/crit are better stats however don't want to make the item so good, so I would guess that T9 for Ret will have Str, Crit, Agility, and Hit rating and little of anything else, since haste and armor pen are not good stats.

 

Redcape

Only partly true. Once you are hit and expertise capped Str/Crit is optimal, but until that point the ordering is more like:

Str
Hit
Expertise
Crit

leaving Haste, ArPen and SPower as the junk stats.

Although admittedly AP is actually really, really good. Since you get 2 AP per itemization point it is actually superior to everything but Str (obviously) but they seem adverse to putting Str and AP both on our gear.

 

Selenia

Update on the disappearing-Judgements bug:

Happens with insane frequency when levelling in Howling Fjord now. I lose one jugement every second fight. Sometimes more. I've even tried purposely waiting a second before judging and I -still- lose them on occasion.

Anyone know what's causing this? Neither my prot nor my holy friends have experienced it at all.

 

Tankenstein

On the case of the missing judgements, I experienced something similar with Righteous Defense last July

I never managed to track down what was causing it, but occasionally my animation would go off and the ability would end up on cooldown, but the spell wouldn't do anything (or even print out a "resist" message in the combat log)

It was a pretty rare occurence; maybe one in a hundred or less taunts disappeared. I did notice that it happened more often when I used my macro to taunt a target of target when targeting a mob, so it might not have any relation to this. It hasn't happened to me since I started playing again a couple of months ago

 

Musclebound

Occasionally if I'm playing with a Ret paladin who has some item that adds an additional effect to a Judgement (take the four piece tier 6 bonus, Enduring Judgements I believe its called), I would notice that my Judgement wasn't on the boss's debuff bar. Upon asking if the other paladin is judging what I am judging, I would find that his would override mine. Its virtually the only time I've noticed a Judgement of mine not landing.

Perhaps this change was overextended or created the complication then?

On the subject of stats, with this new information in mind I believe the only pieces of tier 7 worth getting are the shoulders and helm (the only ones with hit instead of haste). I had still been trying to stack haste since the patch but it appears that isn't the best direction to follow now. Is it completely pointless to have any haste at this point? Is there some numerical cap to it for Ret paladins? Does this make Swift Retribution a trivial talent? I'm curious to know for future reference.

 

Milou

You should not avoid haste, it is still a gain though far less than the other stats. The real test will be if there are great enough upgrades from other gear to ignore the amazon 4 piece bonus. Swift retribution should always be had to make sure melée always get the haste buff which again is still a good buff just not great as it was previously.

 

Cayse

Haste shouldn't be specifically avoided in the "zomg it has haste it's garbage" kind of way, but the tier pieces with haste definitely makes them less attractive compared to non-set pieces. When I first saw them I was excited too, but I was sitting just under 200 haste without ever viewing it as a priority stat. Now when I look at those pieces I think eh, what else can I get for those slots.

The problem is just going to be that unless pieces are itemized without lesser stats (and there are a few "tanking" pieces that are str/stam/hit/exp that are just beautiful as dps pieces), we're always going to be picking pieces that have haste or armor penetration or agi/AP if there either isn't another option, or we're just not getting the better options drop.

 

adolchristin

VV Thanks for pointing me that way; to summarize it seems like Glyph of Judgement and Consecration are two solid choices and the third is going to either be Crusader Strike or SA depending on how the math works out.

 

Beefdefender

See Page 290 (2 pages back)

 

• frmorrison

Anyone have normally 0-2% hit and had Precision pre-3.0?

I know before 3.03 the ghost hit was still there, but I don't want to go test a boss mob.


I have 5% hit on my character sheet, and I am wondering if I can safely drop my 10 hit/10 crit enchant to get the 24 AP enchant, assuming ghost hit was still around.

 

honorstrike

Funny you should mention that actually. I ended up pulling threat off of our tanks on Twins with JoL, tons of raid damage and lots of aggro. I did bubble and throw Hand of Salvation on myself as well and still managed to rip aggro on the SECOND twin. After which, we put a paladin tank in there as the main tank and let him judge light, he tripled everyone else's threat -- problem solved.

However, something that I think is important to note in regards to judging light vs wisdom: It's purely situational. There's no need to judge light on fights that don't have AoE damage. If there IS a fair amount of AoE damage, then mana return is less of a problem anyhow, since (typically) you will absorb a good portion of that damage as well and regain the mana through SA. At that point, judging wisdom over light would be negligent unless you are somehow running on fumes.

Also in that situation, threat becomes less of an issue as well. Warriors / Druids would be able to produce higher amounts of threat due to the incoming damage, while paladin tanks would more than likely judge light instead of the ret paladin. No clue what exactly the effect would be on a death knight yet, but I assume it would have the same general effect or a comparable one as a druid / warrior.

 

Chmur

Hello, was AFK for long time and due to workload cba to read through 14 days of emails, so am going to ask straight:

Did anyone math for pure Libram comparison? There are few librams to get along the way, as well as lvl 80 libram. If this was discussed before, just tell me roughly the page and if not, can anyone of you math junkies shed some light into it?

Thanks!
Chmur

 

Mordekhuul

I paid attention last night and confirmed that AW does indeed trigger a global cooldown now. We discussed this briefly a few pages ago and there was some question.