Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 3

BoinKlasik · 10/17/07, 10:27 AM

You might want to consider adding an itemization section much like the enhancement shaman post. However I can be no help there because I have no idea how to itemize a retribution paladin (gogo prot!).

Xequecal · 10/17/07, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

If you check out my model, it shows both SoC/SoB dps. SoB produces about 5% more dps than SoC.

Does Seal of Command proc Windfury Totem? I know SoB does, and if SoC doesn't it'll put SoB even further ahead.

DarKNecross · 10/17/07, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Xequecal

Does Seal of Command proc Windfury Totem? I know SoB does, and if SoC doesn't it'll put SoB even further ahead.

I don't believe either special procs the Totem, however SoB does proc off the Extra Attacks while SoC doesn't.

DarKNecross · 10/17/07, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

I'm not sure if this has been said or is taken as granted, but the readon why the two cycles are incredibly close is that they are in effect the same cycle. Both allow CS to be used on cooldown and give 100% SoC uptime. The only difference is the JoC rotation. The "9 sec judgement" uses JoC every 9 seconds. The "8 sec Judgement, judged only when GCD up" has varying times between judgements, but the average time between judgement is exactly 9 seconds.

The minor "total damage" difference between these two is due entirely to the first 1.5 seconds (starting off with either CS or Judgement/SoC). After this first 1.5 seconds the dps of the two cycles is exactly the same.

Thus it is not worth getting the second point in improved judgement as you will never be able to judge on average once every 9 seconds without loseing either SoC or CS damage

Actually, I noticed how similar mostly when I was testing them out in Blasted Lands last night. Once you get going, they're almost identical - but it's actually hard to get to the next tier of Ret without putting 2 points in Imp Judgement. Also, chaining the GCD from SoC into CS proves sometimes more difficult than CS->SoC, since you can judge while the GCD from CS is going, and reseal right after.

Modano · 10/17/07, 11:22 AM

So not to bring up an overly discussed topic, but with weapons like Jin'rokh coming out haste seems to be getting more and more prominence, and I've gotten conflicting statements from people on haste and SoC. As I understand it, and as older posts on EJ confirm, haste rating used to have no impact on SoC's proc rate, as SoC's % was based purely on your weapon's speed, not your actual swing rate, but someone followed up and countered that, saying that it was changed in the last patch (i.e. 2.2). Now, reading 2.2 only brings up the already discussed haste rebalancing, but says nothing about affecting proc rates of skills. Is SoC still purely based on old weapon speed or are we going to receive limited benefits from the upcoming haste gear from ZA?

Because if it's based on weapon speed, I really need to start kicking myself for passing on the scarab everytime I ever ran Mech.

Prepared · 10/17/07, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by bellator

But these are still all in the works, so don't pester :p If anyone can tell me how i make the spreadsheet open office friendly, will do so

It seems to be a two-fold problem. Firstly, OOo is not compatible with Excel's macro language at all, so things like the buttons and drop-downs don't function at all. Also, any fields that seem to reference hidden fields don't function. Things such as the totals for stats, the row with values for Blessing of Kings, etc, all give 502 errors (Invalid argument; Function argument is not valid, for example, a negative number for the root function.)

I'd help decipher the issues, but I have never actually worked with macros, and can't figure out what's going on in the hidden cells. Perhaps this will help anyone who's working on this.

--edit--

There are actually a few fields that do function in the top section for "Information". "Base Information" is static, so that obviously works, but strangely things like "Hit", "Crit", "Dam (S)", work.

Going through the steps on how things are totaled out, it seems to be that the calculations for trinkets is where the problem lies. IE: if I completely remove the "Strength" column for trinkets and the libram, the stat totals from gear comes out to an actual value with no error, and then the overall total works fine... until you factor in Divine Strength, which breaks it again. D:

bellator · 10/17/07, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by Modano

So not to bring up an overly discussed topic, but with weapons like Jin'rokh coming out haste seems to be getting more and more prominence, and I've gotten conflicting statements from people on haste and SoC. As I understand it, and as older posts on EJ confirm, haste rating used to have no impact on SoC's proc rate, as SoC's % was based purely on your weapon's speed, not your actual swing rate, but someone followed up and countered that, saying that it was changed in the last patch (i.e. 2.2). Now, reading 2.2 only brings up the already discussed haste rebalancing, but says nothing about affecting proc rates of skills. Is SoC still purely based on old weapon speed or are we going to receive limited benefits from the upcoming haste gear from ZA?

Because if it's based on weapon speed, I really need to start kicking myself for passing on the scarab everytime I ever ran Mech.

The Proc % of SoC is based on 'hasted' weapon speed thus haste will not increase the ppm of SoC.

(*Note this is assumed based on tests of SoV showing that it's ppm was not increased from haste. Whilst this isn't conclusive proof for SoC it is very likely to be the case)

bellator · 10/17/07, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by DarKNecross

I don't believe either special procs the Totem, however SoB does proc off the Extra Attacks while SoC doesn't.

Are you certain SoC cannot proc off a Windfury proc? I was under the impression that so long as the swing that procced WF did not proc SoC that the WF extra attack could proc SoC (ie you couldnt have 2 SoC from 1 swing, but either white attacks in the swing could proc it)

Modano · 10/17/07, 12:03 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

The Proc % of SoC is based on 'hasted' weapon speed thus haste will not increase the ppm of SoC.

(*Note this is assumed based on tests of SoV showing that it's ppm was not increased from haste. Whilst this isn't conclusive proof for SoC it is very likely to be the case)

Rough. So essentially the only benefit from haste is auto attack damage, which isn't bad but it's going to be hard to justify when I watch swing #3 in a row without an SoC proc.

DarKNecross · 10/17/07, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by bellator

Are you certain SoC cannot proc off a Windfury proc? I was under the impression that so long as the swing that procced WF did not proc SoC that the WF extra attack could proc SoC (ie you couldnt have 2 SoC from 1 swing, but either white attacks in the swing could proc it)

I don't actually remember having seen an SoC proc from a WF generated attack, however it very well could. I remember reading somewhere that it wouldn't.

Handled · 10/17/07, 1:49 PM

I'm somewhat curious if anyone has started and maintained any type of Retribution Equipment thread as I didn't see it on the first few pages but I have started to question the full AP only gear model and have since considered 2 T5 and 2 T6?

Gear Theorycraft can be very very painful.

flyingtoastr · 10/17/07, 2:43 PM

Originally Posted by Handled

I'm somewhat curious if anyone has started and maintained any type of Retribution Equipment thread as I didn't see it on the first few pages but I have started to question the full AP only gear model and have since considered 2 T5 and 2 T6?

Gear Theorycraft can be very very painful.

I know the general consensus (especially for BE pallys) is that warrior gear with +haste is far superior than tier sets. Since I have yet to see any accurate information regarding the bonus proc rate for Tier 6, I can't tell whether it would be worth the investment or not. According to WoWhead its a 20% proc rate, but I would much rather see a WWS or combat log than trust it. As for the 2 piece of Tier 5, its effectiveness is entirely dependant on your use of Judgement. If you use Judgement every cooldown it works out to a fair amount of saved mana, but you would be sacrificing a decent amount of stats (especially haste) to use it over non-tier BT gear.

To the best of my knowledge no one has yet tried to keep an up to date equipment list for ret pallys though.

Handled · 10/17/07, 3:19 PM

The problem with haste is it's haste and hit and lacks all forms of crit in max haste gear my crit is so bad I would need amazing other pieces to increase the crit.

flyingtoastr · 10/17/07, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Handled

The problem with haste is it's haste and hit and lacks all forms of crit in max haste gear my crit is so bad I would need amazing other pieces to increase the crit.

This may very well change with the threat reduction, but right now you only want enough crit to keep Vengeance up as close to 100% as possible. After that crit only makes your aggro more spikey while not increasing your DPS as well as AP. With the change to Vengeance and the addition of more crit to the tree (Sanctified Seals) it will mean you will need much less crit from gear to keep that 100% uptime. There is a point where AP starts to give diminished returns for overall DPS as compared to crit, but I'm not sure of the exact numbers. I'm sure a full time retadin could help a bit more there than myself.

Sapp · 10/17/07, 3:43 PM

As a side note on gear since I can't load the calculator in open office...

How do Cataclysm's Edge and the Torch of the Damned compete?

I have fairly free options on both, since the only raiding warrior with anything like strong PvP inclinations dropped off of arenaing recently and respecced Fury, and already has a Stormherald anyway.

Basically, is the -.3 speed on the Cataclysm enough of a deficiency to outweigh the ~60 AP and 8 DPS advantage (and 300 armor penetration)?

I'm trying to decide on their relative value.

I always thought Torch was best as a given but I want to evaluate it in a more complete fashion.