Wrl

Just a weird calculation mechanic I discovered a while back. Certain conditional multipliers such as Crusade will apply to Seal of Blood and Seal of Command twice.

With sanctity aura off, I was hitting for more than 35% of my white damage when using a low dps, low damage range weapon. I created a pretty big sample size and found that it was hitting noticeably harder (I believe it was 3%, but I don't have the numbers anymore).

I believe that crusade first applies to your base melee damage, then when blood determines its damage it applies the modifier again.

I don't believe this is the case for Sanctity Aura, because that shows up on your character sheet specifically.

If anyone wanted to run this test again to back this up, that would rock.

 

flyingtoastr

2.3 Mana costs are:
Exorcism (Rank VII): 340 mana
Hammer of Wrath (Rank IV): 440 mana

Consecrate mana costs remained constant.

Crusader Strike remained at 236 mana on both Live and the PTR (for myself) which somehow works out to be ~6% of my base mana (as opposed to the 8% that is advertised). I must have something wrong here, but the fact remains that the cost is constant.

Good post BTW.

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.

 

Arkhubar

Thanks, I'll go in and adjust all my numbers presently.

I just wish I had useful personal data to back it up, I've had the first theory for months, just variety of things have conspired against me to prevent me from having a WWS log really worth a damn, and now I'm guildless. :P

edit: updated based on new mana costs. Unless I'm crazy Exorcism is the same, HoW is now a good amount less and CS is a good amount more in MPS costs. Makes mana generation even more critical than before.

 

Arkhubar

Ok, attempt to model WF in the spreadsheet is as follows, double check my thoughts:

Add 20% of whatever the original benefit of +dmg/str was (if WF is true) for the following abilities:

White DPS, SoB DPS, SoC DPS.

So for +dmg only SoC benefits to +dmg get a boost, for str +dmg gets a boost. The coefficients I get with WF on are .490719 SoB and .763424 SoC in terms of how much str 1 dmg is equal to. Again, assuming Kings and Enh shaman, without enh the numbers go up to .539791 and .839766. edit: fun fact, without WF, without enh shaman, +dmg exceeds the value of str for retadins using SoC assuming you can use Cons CS HoW SoC JoC every time without fail.

Once I make sure most of the basic assumptions are right and I didn't miss anything silly I'll upload the spreadsheet (anyone got a good method to do that?)

 

Artaxz

Do we have any idea what value to place for each state for purposes of itemization? For instance, the enhancement shaman thread gives fairly well tested values (2.0 str, 1.0 Ap, 1.61 crit, 1.17 hit I believe). I fully understand that STR would be the stat given the most weight (perhaps 2.2 based on the previous listed figures), while agi and crit would be fairly low. As a BE, haste is worth about the same as crit I believe, but I have no real idea on how to prioritize gear.

My guild is asking me to experiment with ret in 2.3, and I have access to any gear. What I am really asking for is item values to use with Lootzor I suppose. My ret gear has some BT trash drops, and pretty much the best from TK/SSC (1800 ap, 20 crit, some haste, and hit capped). I would think with the 8% crit in the ret tree that I would have 100% uptime with vengeance, and could just stack STR and haste.

I looked at T6 ret and it is underwhelming. Any geared ret paladins that can offer gear choices?

http://plaguelands.com/?page_id=298

 

Prepared

I managed to load a development version of OOo which runs some VB script stuff just fine. I did receive an error on enable macros, but the buttons actually worked. However, the calculations are still off, and I get a lot of 502 errors all over the place. This makes me think the errors there are independent of the actual macros.

 

Cromfel

I have been trying to find values for JoW and JoL how they effect certain classes. For reference I took Blood legion WWS reports, calculated class attack "ticks" per second and tried to find HPS and MPS values for each class.

So far it looks like this...

Judgement of Light
Rogue 142 HPS
Warrior (A) 55 HPS
Shaman (En) 101 HPS

Judgement of Wisdom
Mage 25 MPS (125 mana per 5sec)

Anyone have better way to measure classes theoretical interaction with bosses that could trigger JoL and JoW? Is there better ways to present how judgements effect your raid members? Im open for all sugestions, this is just what I thought could be good way to show just few raw numbers how each judgement add.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Ragnor

The melee group makeup really depends on the total raid makeup, obviously you are looking at total raid dps. If one of the rogues is daggers they would be the first to go from that group probably, of course this assuming you can slot them in somewhere else with lotp,bs, tsa etc otherwise it's probably not worth it.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

bellator

Have been spending some time this evening on the dps model.

Unfortunately most of that was spent on creating an "I Win" button in which it would analyse every combination of item to come out with the perfect gear. Unfortunately i overestimated the processing power of my computer and when the timer i had built in to keep track of it's progress told me i had 50 million millenia left until the calculation was done i decided it wasn't worth it. Even filtering out items < item level 140 still left me with an 80million combination / 37 day calculation.

On the plus side learnt some new coding, so implementing a nice new section which will compare individual items against all items of the same type in the database. Not a universal theory unfortunately but a nice extra. Will try to get it out tomorrow.

 

flyingtoastr

The problem with saying "JoW gives x mana per 5 seconds" is that JoW depends greatly on your rate of attack and the kinds of damage you're doing. In other words its entirely dependant on your raid makeup and the specs of everyone hitting the mob. I had a WWS a while back (I think its deleted by now) of a Mag raid where you can see just how much of a difference there is between say a mage (spamming spells) versus a spriest (dots and such). In fact, there are huge differences in spec as well, our destro lock had almost triple the procs as an affliction lock.

I think as a blanket statement you could say JoW restores a ton of mana. But coming up with exact numbers for every class and spec in the game, not counting outside variables, would be a very difficult if not impossible task.

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.

 

bellator

Yes torch of the damned is better than cataclysm's. More so for SoC than SoB, but still better in both.


I'm guessing to work the mana % you calculated the 236 mana cost based on what you mana bar reads when you are completely nakes/untalented etc. However this is not Blizzard means by base mana. If you hover over you intellect when naked etc it will say "Increases mana by X". Take this number away from your mana pool to get your "base mana". This will probably correct the 6% to 8%


My model calculates increase in gains based on itemisation increase. Will try to pull out the comparison figures when i have a minute. General rule of thumb is max hit, get crit to keep veng up then max Str for SoC and Str/Haste for SoB.

 

Veritas17

Question - have we figured out yet if the new vindication change effects boss mobs? This is part of my case with my guild and trying to justify the use of a retadin in the guild. My guild is sorely short sighted when it comes to off-spec whatever you want to call it specs in a raiding environment.

I apologize if this is slightly off topic i'm not quite sure where else to put this. Im also on the pve ptr's and the pvp ptrs if someone wanted to run numbers with me. Im a BE as well.

 

flyingtoastr

That did it, thanks. Yes CS is still 8% of your base mana (well 7.991%, but close enough).

Nothing wrong with questions. And unless its changed significantly since I last checked Vindication only can affect mobs that are CCable. In other words, every time it would proc on a boss you'll just get a nice big "Immune" message.

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.

 

ein3360

That's perfect, thank you!

 

Cromfel

And this is why we should have little rule of thumb examples for everyone to see? They are hard to comprehend, but that doesnt mean we shouldnt try dont you think? We dont need to give exact statement, we just need to give something that people can say they gain.

As I said, if you have better way of presenting it for common good, Im more than happy to hear.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

flyingtoastr

I'm not saying its a bad idea or anything. I will try to get as much data from any fight I can keep Wisdom up for to make a list to help, and I suggest everyone else does the same. But if we're going to do this people need to understand that your mileage will vary by a great amount depending on your raid and the fight. The best I think would be to produce a range of values for each class, such as "you might get a high of x mp5 (tank and spank) to a low of y mp5 (fights where wisdom may not be up all the time/multiple mobs/etc)". It will be a ton of work to get data for most classes and specs, so it might be a while before we can get anything near definitive results.

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.

 

Cromfel

Well all you need to do is see their prefered DPS cycles and see when their cycle resets. That way you know how many JoW proccing abilitys you have over period of time. For melee it isnt that simple, but for casters it is. Not like their spell rotations and spellcasts vary much.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

flyingtoastr

Bleh, I've always been a fan of experimental data versus raw theory, but that would work. The only problem that I can see is that JoW is still a 50% proc chance rather than a PPM, so regardless of how we find the data it will end up being a range rather than a flat value.

But for producing 'ideal' regen from JoW, your system would work well Cromfel. I'll start looking into it.

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.

 

• Avitus

Was wondering when a thread likes this will pop up on EJ

A couple things I noticed so far:

I think this is a bit too general of a statement to just put there, especially in an OP. It depends on so many things like gear (even "T5 level gear" can vary vastly. White damage boosting stats like AP vs spelldamage), group composition (drenai shammy = 1% spell hit), windfury and so on.

So just saying "it's 5% more damage in Tier 5 gear" is a bit off :P

Also consider with the PTR 2.3 change of Precision giving us 3% more spell hit, JoC might become a bit more powerful. Food for thought anyways.

I'd consider letting different paladins run some tests, (3 min tests are way too unreliable, you'd need to test over hours of combat) in different gear to see if you can reach a more reliable number.

 

Cromfel

Yeah you are right. We just need time to adjust things. Those were just few things I had in pocket as this topic was requested. So it will be adjusted to reflect better the actualy downranking benefits/losses, just give me some time.

Thanks for the input tho! This is exactly what we need to keep doing

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

grover

I haven't noticed any extra damage on SoC hits. If you spec 0/3 crusade and hit SoC with a low range weapon, then spec 3/3 crusade your SoC hits will be exactly 3% higher.

Crusade is different to other DPS increasing talents though, it applies twice on crits. That's something that should be added to the DPS spreadsheet too. With 3/3 crusade our crit modifier is 106% and with 3/3 crusade and the meta gem it's 112%.

 

flyingtoastr

Ok, a few preliminary numbers I got for JoW. I looked around the boards for some basic attack rotation and speed information, but it may not all be accurate. These numbers assume a perfect 50% proc rate for JoW to make the math easier. These numbers assume a 100% hit rate to again make the math easier. These calculations only include spells and abilities that can proc JoW, even though there may be more in the rotation. There is a reason this is the ideal situation test folks. Feel free to fix/add to them as you can.

Hunter
Beast Mastery
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Steady Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.1s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 176.19 Mp5

Marksmanship
Typical Rotation: Autoshot, Special Shot, repeat
Assumed Autoshot Speed: 2.5s
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 148 Mp5

Mage
Fire
Typical Rotation: (After Fire Vunerability x5 is applied) Fireball x8, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 65.29 Mp5

Frost
Typical Rotation: Frostbolt, repeat
Ideal Mp5 from JoW: 74

Arcane
Typical Rotation: Arcane Blast x2, Arcane Missile x2, Scorch, repeat
Ideal Mp5: 138.75 Mp5

Note for mages I assumed 5/5 Improved Fireball/Frostbolt depending on spec

This is all I have time for right now, and yes they are the easiest classes and specs to do, but its late and I'm tired. I'll try to do more tomorrow. Between now and then feel free to contribute.

Some people's minds are like cement: all mixed up and permanently set.

 

• Avitus

Ok now I actually finished reading the full thread since my initial reply (damn you people are busy!), some more things I noticed:

There's a thread here on EJ which concluded that most spells that are pre-TBC are based on the "base/un-hasted weapon speed" where as spells/effects which are post-TBC (or rather wow 2.0) are based on the "hasted weapon speed" to calculate the proc chance of the ppm.

As such, SoV and SoC would fall into two different categories. I'll check if I can get more in depth info on this, since it's just from memory atm, however I think it's a very important point, seeing as otherwise haste is basically almost worthless (in comparison to other stats) if it doesn't increase SoC chances (the 2% haste from Mongoose and hopes for increased SoC procs is one of the main reasons I got it on my Torch of the Damned).

 

• Avitus

As a ret paladin, windfury and especially enhancement shammies are your best friends. I strongly advise having one in your party, it's almost a must.

2h wielding (ret paladins/arms warriors) classes usually gain far more from WF than dual wielding ones (rogues/fury warriors). Checking damage meters (SW stats), my average damage from WF is ~12% where as rogues hover at about ~4-5% (used to be 7-8% pre WF nerf).

On top of that, Unleashed Rage (enhancement shammy only) pumps up your STR benefit to incredible heights, basically with Divine Str and BoK and Unleashed Rage up you're gaining a total of 2.662 AP per 1 point of STR. I think that's the highest gain from str of any class.


To answer your inital question: Ditch 1 warrior for you, raid benefit wise 1 ret paladin and 1 fury warrior is much better than 0 ret and 2 warriors. At the same time, WF is almost essential for you to perform well which should be a reason for your spot in that group. Improved Sanctity Aura, while not a flat out killer buff, serves for some bargaining rights.

So far my only problem was aggro from excessively streaky WF/SoC procs, but that's getting fixed with the threat reduction (\o/).

 

• Avitus

DPS rotations:

While what's posted here about 1/2 Imp Judgement is probably true on paper, I wonder how it holds up in practice.

In an actual encounter with moderate lag, having to cleanse/move on occasion, using consecrate (I personally do during AW or if my mana is good), wasting GCD on AW/DS and normal human reaction times surely it doesn't really matter that much in the long run? (Not that there's a killer need for that saved point anyway in Tier 1-2 ret tree).

Personally I try to keep SoC up all the time and try to delay JoC by 1 GCD if it's going to conflict with CS. However this happens only rarely, once every couple "rotations".

I guess I don't disagree with the theorycrafting, I just question its validity/benefit in real encounter situations.



Mana consumption:

Something I haven't really seen mentioned here explicitly: Alchemist's Stone.

Personally in most fights that don't have much AoE damage, I chug Super Mana Potions every cooldown, sometimes throw in a Fel Mana Potion instead if I'm really low and occasionally Dark Runes.

I've actually had very good results with Dreamless Sleep Potions in fights where you need to move back or have a couple seconds "aggro break".

With Alchemist's Stone, all of these (- the dark runes) give 40% more mana, Dreamless Sleep Potions which normally give 3600 mana (and HP) give you a fat 5040 mana/hp with Alchemist's Stone equipped.

Having all this extra mana gives me a lot of leeway in putting consecration into my spam rotations and has an even greater effect on undead/demon mobs where you can additionally use exorcism.

Also keep in mind Alchemist's Stone gives 15agi/15str/15int which all work towards our damage: 0.66% crit/36.3AP/~250 mana with kings and Div Str.

This aside, I've yet to compare which has the upper hand: "Real DPS trinket" (with a big static benefit like Bloodlust Brooch/Tsunami Talisman/MotB) + no consecration spam vs Alchemist's Stone + consecration spam.



JoW mana restored:

I might get some WWS logs going one our next raids and see how much mana is restored from JoW to everyone. This is definitely a good point for ret.


Hope all this spurs some further discussion