Mearis

Yes, if you use max rank consacration on single targets that's a given. That's like mages spamming arcane blast nonstop.

 

flyingtoastr

Welcome to patch 2.3, where it is actually more efficient to grind as a healer than a ret pally (and yes, I have tried it on the PTR). 2.3 is live, you have your free 800 spell damage, so time to stop whining about how unfair it is for healers.

Just using numbers we've calculated for a fully raid buffed Paladin (I'm rounding because its very early and I'm tired).

Ret Pallys gain:

Chain Chugging: 100 Mp5
JoW: 100 Mp5
BoW (talented): 50 Mp5
Mana Spring (non-talented): 50 Mp5

Total Gain: 300 Mp5

Our consumption is as follows:

Using max rank SoC and Consecration
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
Consecration VI (8 seconds): 660 mana
-761 mana used per 5 seconds

Total Result: -463 Mp5

Naturally this would lead to "lets downrank to save mana". If you brought everything to the lowest possible rank your consumption and regen would look like this.

Downranking SoC and Consecration to Rank I
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC I + Judgement (8 seconds): 151 mana
Consecration I (8 seconds): 120 mana
-366 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -68 Mp5

The next logical step is to cut out Consecration.

Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
-348 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: -48 Mp5

If you want to take this to an extreme and cut out as much as possible (no Judgement or Consecration) and downrank SoC you will regen mana, but at a huge cost to DPS.

Absolute Minimum Mana Consumption
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC I (30 seconds): 55 mana
-206 mana used every 5 seconds

Total Result: +94 Mp5

Make of it as you will. These of course are very very rough estimates that don't take into account all sorts of extra variables (Spiritual Atunement comes to mind first) but they give you a rough idea of what our regen looks like.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Kris

TBH you shouldn't spam consecration unless you're regenning huge amounts of mana from SA. I find it silly that people complain they go quickly oom from spamming their most inefficient spell. With this rotation the average retri paladin with 7000 mana will last approximately 730 seconds (12 minutes) before going oom and I find that totally acceptable.

 

Cromfel

What exactly makes us use R1 spells as main source of damage? This isnt using Consecration at all. Only CS + SoC + JoC.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

flyingtoastr

Of course this is true. The thing to remember about Consecration though is that it is one of your largest DPS spells as well. With no spell damage on a Crusader Judged mob (with Sanctity Aura) Consecration VI is 98 damage per second. Consecration I is 35 DPS. That is a lot of extra DPS. I don't think you can say "never use Consecration", because it is a really good spell. The key is finding your sweet spot where you can maximize your DPS but not run OOM until the second the boss drops.

The golden rule of DPS stands. If you have mana left over after a boss dies you weren't pushing hard enough. If you're OOM before a boss goes down you're not being conservative enough.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

galzohar

So does every other mana based class! The raid-based mana regen (BoW, SPs, totems, mana pots...) are a very significant part of the mana of ALL mana using classes. Unbuffed they will ALL run oom pretty damn fast (compared to average bossfight length of ~10min) even not going all out.

All those mana regen comparisons really don't mean much. What really means something is at the end if you'll test your mobs/hour as a ret paladin and then as another class, you'll probably be getting the ret palladin having way less mobs/hour. Until your test shows otherwise all these arguments about PARTS of the grinding ability are meaningless, as you need to add up all the parts to really see the speed difference, not just say the mana regen is bad and thus the grinding is bad, or anythign ilke that.

Bringing JoW/SoW into use, as shown above, is completely pointless, since you're better off DRINKING than using it (I could guess that result due from plain experience, that's how big the difference is).

 

Cromfel

I have done that testing many times with multiple classes. Feral druid, Shadowpriest, Warlock, Retribution paladin and shockadin. Why does not my results qualify for you? Mobs per hour with Retribution is significantly lower than other classes. Thats one of the very base arguments behind this conversation, and that was countered by "L2P" what seemed to be issue on the accusing player instead of me.

A: Our grinding is extremely inefficient compared to other classes B: We dont have any manaregen abilities or ways to get closer to other classes. Just see flyingtoastr example for reference, it is absolutely stupid to judge JoW on monsters. it is abou 10-20 seconds that it takes for you to kill monster, where you would need 30sec or more to even gain the mana back that you have wasted on the judgement of wisdom.

Reason behind the conclusion:
#1: Testing multiple classes ingame with equal gear level and evaluating their performance
#2: Calculating theoretical possibilities of performing better
#3: Double checking the theory ingame to verify results

Conclusion: We need some kind of manaregen tool similiar to Shamanistic Rage, or just little increase in base mana regeneration.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Mearis

Grinding is absolutely not something the game is balanced around, much like 1 vs 1 PvP.

Since you are absolutely interested in achieving grinding parity (determined as amounts of mobs killed/hour) between classes, I suppose you are in favour of very very large nerfs to protection paladins AoE'ing mobs on top of black temple seeing as absolutely nobody else comes close to matching their killing speed?

 

Cromfel

Who are you to decide what we can talk about our class performance? Are you moderator here, if our conversation was something that is not suitable for these boards, I suppose you can delete the posts. Incase you are moderator here.

Grinding is absolutely something the game is balanced around, much like 5 vs 5 PvP.

See what I did there?

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

flyingtoastr

This kind of crap belongs on the Blizzard forums. Keep it out of our topic.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Mearis

It isn't 'your topic' and I am not trying to moderate or anything, I am simply suggesting that trying to balance WoW around any type of grinding parity is absolutely absurd because the differences are staggering. It is like 1 vs 1 PvP, it is absolutely completely imbalanced, and Blizzard has never shown absolutely any willingness to balance it, and it is part of the reason why certain roles are almost always shunned by a large percentage of the gaming populace.

Every class runs out of mana quickly if they use max dps rotations on raids, this is normal and balanced. A lot of classes are completely hamstrung in PvP if they are drained or once they run out of mana. and I don't see Blizzard changing it anytime soon.

If someone wants to suggest that there should be an effort to balance the grinding ability of different classes, the first step would be to massively nerf affliction warlocks and protection paladins, since they are by far the biggest outliers - but since Blizzard is completely not interested, as long as grinding remains trivial for every class, they won't make any changes that only affect that facet of gameplay.

 

Cromfel

It is extremely easy to narrow the cap between classes if you actually bothered to think about possible solutions instead of just post this crap. You dont have point, anywhere in your post. Only your own assumptions how this game should be designed and how you think its designed. Class grinding longevity has nothing to do with general pvp balance. You are trying to say that we shouldnt get fixed because ability X is not balanced over Y. Those 2 things have zero relation. Who have said we are trying to create perfect balance anyway? We are only saying that our class performance is crippled, and we are saying that it needs some kind of fix. All mana based classes have ways of improving their longevity, while Paladin has zero ways.

Why dont you actually start to think about what you are saying, or just leave in peace? If you dont have anything to contribute than just WoW official forum style generalizations and completely irrelevant comparisons, you shouldnt post at all.

Edit: Nevermind, you already received infraction for it so I think you should take the hint.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Meuble

Hey everyone. Rough couple of weeks, couldn't get any test done, I will *hopefully* get 3 or 4 wws links for a ret pal with savagery by the night. Hopefully.

About the argument going on: I couldn't care less about grinding! I've been holy for way too long, everytime I spec ret I feel like golds, rep and items really fall in my hand by themselves. Might the whole "woo hoo, I do crazy crits" syndrom talking tho. Anyway, I've gout trouble considering this an issue. Holy pals will probably farm better at 2.3 but, well... good for them.

Back to what I still consider an issue: What the hell with the S3 stuff? Since they got all the SD out I assumed that there was gonna be a str > sd or ap > sd or whatever > sd thing given to pallys. Aparently there's not. Am I the only one surprised (to say the very least) about this?


edit: Wouldn't be a first "very odd" thing we would have to deal with however >< next blizzcon "ret dependance on SD will be lessened as soon as wotlk hits". Hurray!

 

Cromfel

It would be very odd if they didnt add any conversion talent. From raw numbers we lost almost 50% of stats in the process, 154 spelldamage and 252 armor penetration is equal to 156 strength, and we received 82 str. So we got reduction in damage and reduction in combat durability due loss in +healing. Thats how WoW itemization works with split stats. But that doesnt justify any reason for nerfing the set just for the sake of doing so. At least I can not currently see the reasoning for this change, as we gained nothing in the process.

It gives even more edge for Blood Elf paladins, since their SoB doesnt gain anything from Spell damage. But yet again I dont see how faction restricted seal should be objective for tailoring our class gear. Hence leaving Alliance paladins pretty much with empty hands. Thats what I have to say about the itemization change. If anyone has some obvious point I have missed, I am more than willing to hear it.

Blizzard developers mentioned that they are trying to lessen our reliance in multiple stats. But currently I dont see any reduction in reliance, only seeing removal of stats that try to fulfil the spell damage dependancy. Tier sets also try to fulfil that dependancy, but for example ring/neck/back slots and trinket slots do not give us that option to follow our class design.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

flyingtoastr

Its not just grinding. I have shown you twice now with pure mathematics that our mana regen whether soloing or raiding is bad to nonexistent. Look at all those restoring abilities that I listed for our regen capabilities. All of those are outside buffs. We have no Shadowfiend, no Dark Pact, no Shamanistic Rage. We don't even have any Meditation or Dreamstate talents. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Let me say that one more time for emphasis. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Is it so much to ask that Paladin's get some sort of regen tool so we aren't forced to completely cut out spells from our DPS cycle to prevent going OOM?

The reason this discussion has been focusing on grinding is because all of our problems are magnified there. Since all our regen is coming from outside buffs, we actually have pretty much nothing to keep us from going OOM very quickly in a soloing situation.

I'm remaining hopeful that 2.4 will bring additional changes. 2.3 was a huge patch to begin with, and from what they've done the developers are trying to meet the issues for us at the very least. I consider 2.3 a major success regardless of the lack of AP > SD, our two major issues were handled cleanly and efficiently (CS cooldown and Threat Reduction). I like to think optimistically anyway.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Prepared

If I may derail this section of the thread slightly... I was looking at replacing my [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] with a [Shapeshifter's Signet] (both with +12 spell damage), because - with my racial - it would round down to having 10 total Expertise points.

I'm already hit-capped with the gear I have, and we raid with a druid that has Improved Faerie Fire... I'll have about 37% crit raid buffed, and something like 2300 AP. Has anyone yet calculated in the estimated DPS increase from having fewer attacks dodged? I noticed v23 of the spreadsheet (that I can't load all the way, anyhow) has nothing in the WE column from our racial, and putting 5 in just gives me about a 12 DPS boost - and it also doesn't have that ring yet.

 

galzohar

Cromfel my post was *supposed* to support your testing as opposed to the people showing just parts of what affects grinding, sorry if it didn't come out in the way I posted it.

My point is that as actual experience here shows paladins grind slow, and just testing mana regen abilities, same as just testing DPS values, is not enough to show how fast a class is grinding, which is what many other people here were bringing up as both claims to why "paladins grind fine" and "paladins grind slow", while those claims were really not making any point as they only take less than 1/2 of what grinding is about.

At least 15% move speed increase up from 8% would be a rather noticeable, although small, increase in grinding speed. Of course if you don't have anyone in the raid with imp BoM (or the imp BoM guy is also doing imp BoW or kings on guys that need BoM as well), picking up PoJ isn't too viable. If you don't have to spec imp BoM, though, you can easily pick it up too. Then again you want imp BoM for a soloing spec, yet I still think 2/5 BoM 3/3 PoJ should grind faster than 5/5 BoM and a 8% speed increase enchant on boots.

 

Cromfel

Sorry, I simply misunderstood your intentions. I appology


I think Malan (Or some other Shaman) Had pretty well explained information about speed enchants and their effects in DPS. It must have been in the Shaman megathread.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

galzohar

Calculating the effect on DPS should be really really easy... If you spend 10% of your time moving to a target, 8% speed increase would result in 0.8% DPS increase. Of course you this would have slight effects on your actual 10% of time spent moving, but it'll change the 0.8% by an insignificant number ("second order" correction).

 

Friski

Great thread, with a lot of useful information. I was curious to see if it would be possible to get [Furious Gizmatic Goggles] added into the spreadsheet? Basically because that is all I have/had available to me up to this point and I would like to see what upgrades would benefit me the most before aquiring them and finding out differently. Also if it would be possible to add that ring mentioned a few posts up, the Shapeshifters signet now that it has weapon expertise.

 

Fiola

Oh, I'm happy with my grind rate. I've also done my homework to be reasonably efficient with it, given the constraints of my class.

Can it be improved? Sure. Does it need improving? I don't think so.


You say it needs improving. *You* need to do *one* more step beyond simply observing, "this other class can grind faster". Every class has something they can do better than other classes, so handing out buffs based on comparison alone would yield homogenized classes.

What is "enough"? Do Ret paladins need a 100% grinding speed buff? 200%?


The entire math post that you're replying to?

Perhaps I need to use more bolds and italics just for you to read my damn math.


Awww, it's cute what you did here.


Do you understand that the point of the grind rotation is to chain them together?


You fight one mob, you judge, you re-seal. When the mob dies, you still have 20 seconds left on your seal, and you fight your next mob. Judge, re-seal. Rinse, repeat.

Un-necessary sealing wastes mana and increases downtime (eventually).


The point of my math isn't to prove that Paladins absolutely don't need mana regen buffs. My point is that they *do* have (grinding) mana regen. You haven't done any of this *simple* homework, how do you expect Blizzard to give you buffs?

Dev A: "They want mana regen buffs"
Dev B: "How are their existing mana regen abilities deficient?"
Dev A: "Dunno, they want buffs cause Shadow Priests and warlocks can grind better"
Dev B: " ... "



I think I've adequately explained how your addition to my rotations are invalid.

For this next calculation, I will use my original math, assuming a 5.7k mana pool.

Combo 1:
10.7 seconds, -427 mana per mob -> 13.3 mobs or 143 seconds of grinding till OOM.
Drink for 25 seconds

Cycle Time: 168 seconds
Kill rate: 13.3 mobs per 168 seconds

vs.

Weaving Combo 2 + 3
26 seconds per 2 mobs, or 13 seconds per mob; net mana gain from this cycle

Cycle time: Indefinite

Kill rate: 11 mobs per 143 seconds
Kill rate: 12.9 mobs per 168 seconds



There does seem to be a kill rate penalty using the weaving combo, but you're also gaining mana overall and do not have to sit and drink.

If you'd like to seize this as an "AHA!" point, you can say my math proves that using max ability spam + drinking yields a 3% increase in mob kill rate compared to using SoW/JoW weaving.


We're still ignoring travel time, which I'd rather not bother with, since that's highly variable. And I think this thread has had enough of "grinding theorycraft". I made my point, take it as you will.



I did this math first, and then I used it when grinding.


Feel free to denigrate how this is "just theorycraft". You countered my posts with "just theorycraft". The point is that the math shows us possibilities. In particular, I kept this math simplified for your sake, since you seemed to have never seriously considered the possibilities of using SoW + JoW while grinding.


I will, you too.

 

Habaka

After playing a rogue to 70, Warrior to 70 and done some grinding with them and seeing how my brother plays his mage...

I agree with Cromfel also.

Ret paladins have... atleast by just observing, lowest damage, goes fastest to a state where he needs to drink / eat and ofcourse since they do it fastest, also most frequently.

Edit: Oh and I dont really see JoW and SoW as a fix, since atleast for my state of mind, that takes waaaay too much damage off, so that killing mobs becomes very very tedious...

I'd rather buy water and food from a vendor and eat / drink every now and then.

 

flyingtoastr

On the note of Weapon Expertise, I've seen a lot of conflicting reports on boss dodge and parry chances. Some people have set them as low as 5%, and I've seen some estimates as high as 12%. Does anyone know how much expertise we would need to be capped? Obviously any amount of it will be a DPS gain, but where is the point where you can push parry and dodges off the table?

And a quick question for those long time Ret Vets. My first raid as ret is going to be TK to get a few new recruits atuned. On the Kael fight is picking up a Devestation worth it or should I stick with my Skillherald? Also, during the gravity lapses in phase 5 should I bother throwing heals or just worry about keeping alive?

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Sapp

Dodge is usually low and normal, 5.6%-6% or so from bosses.

Parry is often high, ~14% or so from many bosses.

Don't attack from the front!

 

Kyne

Devastation is worth it, but you're going to have to pace yourself and keep a wary eye on the threat meter since you will be seeing some unusually large numbers. In my experience on Phase 5 when I was Retribution, I would find a good spot for myself and toss heals on targets who required more immediate attention (use your judgment here).