Its not just grinding. I have shown you twice now with pure mathematics that our mana regen whether soloing or raiding is bad to nonexistent. Look at all those restoring abilities that I listed for our regen capabilities. All of those are outside buffs. We have no Shadowfiend, no Dark Pact, no Shamanistic Rage. We don't even have any Meditation or Dreamstate talents. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Let me say that one more time for emphasis. We have no regen outside of what buffs we get. Is it so much to ask that Paladin's get some sort of regen tool so we aren't forced to completely cut out spells from our DPS cycle to prevent going OOM?
PvE aside, the complete lack of mana regen in a PvP environment is one of the greatest reasons (perhaps THE) retribution paladins are highly undesirable in arenas right now.
That and crusader strike is really just a glorified auto attack (actually weaker than auto attack with zero spell dmg on our gear)
After playing a rogue to 70, Warrior to 70 and done some grinding with them and seeing how my brother plays his mage...
I agree with Cromfel also.
Ret paladins have... atleast by just observing, lowest damage, goes fastest to a state where he needs to drink / eat and ofcourse since they do it fastest, also most frequently.
Edit: Oh and I dont really see JoW and SoW as a fix, since atleast for my state of mind, that takes waaaa ytoo much damage off, so that killing mobs becomes very very tedious...
I'd rather buy water and food from a vendor and eat / drink every now and then.
Ill be damned, everyone agrees with me except 1 individual who says he dont have experience to back up hes observations. Fascinating, everyone so far who have said they have experience came to same conclusion. Could this indicate that we actually could use some tuning on the manaregen front?
Originally Posted by myth123
PvE aside, the complete lack of mana regen in a PvP environment is one of the greatest reasons (perhaps THE) retribution paladins are highly undesirable in arenas right now.
That and crusader strike is really just a glorified auto attack (actually weaker than auto attack with zero spell dmg on our gear)
I would rather not reply to this thread any further until I have the data, but I'd like to gather some empirical data on killing speed of mobs for different specs/classes.
I'll see if I can get some guildmates to help, does anyone have any suggestions for what mobs would be a good benchmark to measure grinding speed? A measure of mobs/10 minutes seems like a good indication, but controlling the parameters would be a nightmare if we pick a crowded spot. There is also the problem that player skill would be an absolute nightmare to normalize, a great player might try to grind multiple mobs at once while someone instead might limit himself to single pulling mobs that are far awa yfrom each other.
My experience so far is that even with a decent spell damage suit, raid healing spec'd and prot tanks are by far the slowest classes at grinding, and all DPS classes are able to grind at very high speeds, with a few classes being absolutely exceptional (protection paladins and affliction warlocks).
I freely conceed that ret paladins might be at the bottom of the ladder as far as grinding speed of DPS classes, but they are probably well ahead of restoration shamans, holy priests, holy paladins, and protection warriors, even considering the upcoming healing -> spell damage conversion. A guildmate who absolutely hates ret spec'd ret once on a bet and commented that the only thing the spec was good for was grinding mobs.
I freely conceed that ret paladins might be at the bottom of the ladder as far as grinding speed of DPS classes, but they are probably well ahead of restoration shamans, holy priests, holy paladins, and protection warriors, even considering the upcoming healing -> spell damage conversion. A guildmate who absolutely hates ret spec'd ret once on a bet and commented that the only thing the spec was good for was grinding mobs.
Are you going to perform the test with Retribution verus healing specced or Retribution versus classic grinding specs?
Good mobs to chain grinding are for example Skettis surgers or SMV elementals if you pick your timing correctly.
Welcome to patch 2.3, where it is actually more efficient to grind as a healer than a ret pally (and yes, I have tried it on the PTR). 2.3 is live, you have your free 800 spell damage, so time to stop whining about how unfair it is for healers.
Just using numbers we've calculated for a fully raid buffed Paladin (I'm rounding because its very early and I'm tired).
Ret Pallys gain:
Chain Chugging: 100 Mp5
JoW: 100 Mp5
BoW (talented): 50 Mp5
Mana Spring (non-talented): 50 Mp5
Total Gain: 300 Mp5
Our consumption is as follows:
Using max rank SoC and Consecration
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana
Consecration VI (8 seconds): 660 mana -761 mana used per 5 seconds
Total Result: -463 Mp5
Naturally this would lead to "lets downrank to save mana". If you brought everything to the lowest possible rank your consumption and regen would look like this.
Downranking SoC and Consecration to Rank I
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoC I + Judgement (8 seconds): 151 mana
Consecration I (8 seconds): 120 mana -366 mana used every 5 seconds
Total Result: -68 Mp5
The next logical step is to cut out Consecration.
Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC VI + Judgement (8 seconds): 243 mana -348 mana used every 5 seconds
Total Result: -48 Mp5
If you want to take this to an extreme and cut out as much as possible (no Judgement or Consecration) and downrank SoC you will regen mana, but at a huge cost to DPS.
Absolute Minimum Mana Consumption
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoC I (30 seconds): 55 mana -206 mana used every 5 seconds
Total Result: +94 Mp5
Make of it as you will. These of course are very very rough estimates that don't take into account all sorts of extra variables (Spiritual Atunement comes to mind first) but they give you a rough idea of what our regen looks like.
For those BE pally, SoB comes to:
Using max rank SoB and Consecration
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoB I + Judgement (8 seconds): 168 mana
Consecration VI (8 seconds): 660 mana -714 mana used per 5 seconds
Total Result: -414 Mp5
Downranking Consecration to Rank I
CS (6 seconds): 236 mana
SoB I + Judgement (8 seconds): 168 mana
Consecration I (8 seconds): 120 mana -376 mana used every 5 seconds
Total Result: -76 Mp5
Note: BE get slightly less benefit here due to no lower rank of SoB
The next logical step is to cut out Consecration.
Cutting out Consecration
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoB I + Judgement (8 seconds): 168 mana -301 mana used every 5 seconds
Total Result: -1 Mp5
If you want to take this to an extreme and cut out as much as possible (no Judgement or Consecration) you will regen mana, but at a significant cost to DPS.
Absolute Minimum Mana Consumption
CS (6 Seconds): 236 mana
SoB I (30 seconds): 210 mana -231 mana used every 5 seconds
Total Result: +69 Mp5
Personally, I usually run w/o Consecration, as I didn't get BoW in raids (Salv is too important). With build in -threat, I may get BoW and add it back in.
Thanks for all the work your guys are putting in, and especially thanks for the spreadsheets - I've spent hours trawling over them already!
Just wanted to double check about "Weapon Expertsie" though; it seems remarkably powerful on Bellator's spreadsheet, so much so that the [Brooch of Deftness] appears to be one of the best DPS neck's avaliable in the game, despite having no Str/AP and no Crit whatsoever. Is this correct? If so, I know where 35 of my badges are going tomorrow!
Great thread, with a lot of useful information. I was curious to see if it would be possible to get [Furious Gizmatic Goggles] added into the spreadsheet? Basically because that is all I have/had available to me up to this point and I would like to see what upgrades would benefit me the most before aquiring them and finding out differently. Also if it would be possible to add that ring mentioned a few posts up, the Shapeshifters signet now that it has weapon expertise.
I asked this as well, and found that you can add your own items (although I've had mixed luck with that. seems my adding the badge stuff broke the weapon and belt selections, to the point where changing the value doesn't change the stats displayed. Then again, I also messed with the DPS displays to show for SoB, as I don't care about SoC).
To add new items:
Format -> Sheet -> Unhide
Unhide the 'DPS' sheet and add your items in.
Last edited by LockApologist : 11/13/07 at 3:03 PM.
I asked this as well, and found that you can add your own items (although I've had mixed luck with that. seems my adding the badge stuff broke the weapon and belt selections, to the point where changing the value doesn't change the stats displayed. Then again, I also messed with the DPS displays to show for SoB, as I don't care about SoC).
To add new items:
Format -> Sheet -> Unhide
Unhide the 'DPS' sheet and add your items in.
I tried playing with this some, and failed. I'll keep plugging away though, maybe soon my old excel skills from the past will magically come back to my remembrance. Thanks!
2.3 is on the doorstep and one of the paladins in my guild is speccing retri. There is only 1 problem: his class leader doesn't allow him to sign up for raids. Not enough dps he says.
I of course want a retri pala in raid for the sake of judgement of wisdom so I want to convince the CL to get a retri pala each raid. I'm not a great paladin-theorycrafter so could anyone make me a list why we should get a retri pala instead of a dps warrior for instance?
Things I came up by myself:
-Judgement of wisdom owns for casters;
-Paladins get -30% threat, warriors only 10% in berserker stance.
Just wanted to double check about "Weapon Expertsie" though; it seems remarkably powerful on Bellator's spreadsheet, so much so that the [Brooch of Deftness] appears to be one of the best DPS neck's avaliable in the game, despite having no Str/AP and no Crit whatsoever. Is this correct? If so, I know where 35 of my badges are going tomorrow!
I didn't have much time to look at the spreadsheet (at work at the moment), but when I replaced the [Pendant of the Perilous] from the default gear set with [Brooch of Deftness], the listed DPS went from (1347+30) to (1336+32), a loss of 9 dps overall.
Do most ret paladins attempting to maximize raid DPS use weightstones / sharpening stones? I realise there is a conflict with windfury, but will this weapon buff actually prevent windfury from sticking if/when it is available?
Do most ret paladins attempting to maximize raid DPS use weightstones / sharpening stones? I realise there is a conflict with windfury, but will this weapon buff actually prevent windfury from sticking if/when it is available?
Yes. If you already have a temporary weapon buff, windfury will not apply. You will have to click it off and wait for the totem to pulse again.
Do most ret paladins attempting to maximize raid DPS use weightstones / sharpening stones? I realise there is a conflict with windfury, but will this weapon buff actually prevent windfury from sticking if/when it is available?
The temporary weapon enchants do prevent totem-based weapon buffs from applying themselves. That's why you'll hear Shaman tell Rogues not to use Poisons on their main hand weapons, because they'll lose the benefit of WF.
That said, the weapon buff stones are a nice buff if you don't have access to a group with a Shaman for some reason, but be careful because you can't cancel the buffs until their duration runs out.
That said, the weapon buff stones are a nice buff if you don't have access to a group with a Shaman for some reason, but be careful because you can't cancel the buffs until their duration runs out.
Thats actually fixed (I have no idea when). You can now cancel the weapon buffs from your buff bar.
I didn't have much time to look at the spreadsheet (at work at the moment), but when I replaced the [Pendant of the Perilous] from the default gear set with [Brooch of Deftness], the listed DPS went from (1347+30) to (1336+32), a loss of 9 dps overall.
Haha.
Ok so apparently my first post was a little retaded! >.<
Evidently the difference I experienced was due to being hit capped or not, as the [Brooch of Deftness] as a hefty chunk of hit rating on it, and I must have been below 9% hit before I equipepd it.
With that taken into account the brooch is fairly useless then?
2.3 is on the doorstep and one of the paladins in my guild is speccing retri. There is only 1 problem: his class leader doesn't allow him to sign up for raids. Not enough dps he says.
He should actually test that in a raid, post 2.3, before saying so with certainty.
It looks like you're firmly in the middle of t5 content judging by your realm forum progression post. That's a good spot to properly test Ret for your guild; a PvP+kara geared ret paladin is functionally competing on the same line as most t5 DPS would be.
What other "off specs" is your guild receptive to? Do you have a mix of holy and shadow priests? What do your druids do? Shamans? Do you use any DPS warriors, and how many DPS warriors compared to how many rogues? Any MS blood frenzy warriors?
Any Pallytanks?
The danger comes if you're trying to get a ret to jump straight into t6 content. They really need t6 gear to compete at t6 content, maybe with a sprinkling of the upcoming season 3 pvp gear.
I was under the impression it had a 40% proc rate, not sure where I got that number but i'll look it up.
Are you sure that Consecration procs it? if so it should theoretically pay for itself and then some on a JoW mob. Which I know in practice hasn't worked for me.
edit: just tested, yeah the first tick can in fact proc it which is another thing I had forgotten.
I was under the impression it had a 40% proc rate, not sure where I got that number but i'll look it up.
Are you sure that Consecration procs it? if so it should theoretically pay for itself and then some on a JoW mob. Which I know in practice hasn't worked for me.
edit: just tested, yeah the first tick can in fact proc it which is another thing I had forgotten.
Both JoW and JoL are 50% proc rates. They can both only proc off the first tic of a DoT (such as Consecration).
11/13/07, 12:50 PM
