On top of that, Unleashed Rage (enhancement shammy only) pumps up your STR benefit to incredible heights, basically with Divine Str and BoK and Unleashed Rage up you're gaining a total of 2.662 AP per 1 point of STR. I think that's the highest gain from str of any class.
For a Fury Warrior 1 Strength on gear becomes 1.1 Strength with BoK, 1.1 Strength are 2.2 Attack Power which become 2.42 through Unleashed Rage and 2.662 through Improved Berserker Stance. So 1 Strength is 2.662 AP and 1 AP is 1.21 AP.
For a Druid in 2.2, 1 Strength becomes 1.1 Strength with BoK which becomes 1.133 Strength with that 3% stats talent which becomes 1.3596 Strength through Heart of the Wild in Cat Form equalling 2.7192 AP which become 2.99112 AP with Unleashed Rage.
For a Druid in 2.3, it's the same as a Fury Warrior plus 3%, resulting in 2.74186 AP per Strength on gear.
So it's definitely not the highest.
While what's posted here about 1/2 Imp Judgement is probably true on paper, I wonder how it holds up in practice.
In an actual encounter with moderate lag, having to cleanse/move on occasion, using consecrate (I personally do during AW or if my mana is good), wasting GCD on AW/DS and normal human reaction times surely it doesn't really matter that much in the long run? (Not that there's a killer need for that saved point anyway in Tier 1-2 ret tree).
There actually might be a need for that point. Pursuit of Justice is an extra point, and 15% speed is attractive. If the new Vindication actually affects raid mobs (unlikely, but you never know), that might be worth taking as well. That means you might want to shift up to 6 points to Tier 3 Ret. Saving an unnecessary point on Imp Judgement could be handy.
Am I correct if I assume there's nothing like armor or boss level miss/dodge included in the spreadsheet? The Warrior and Rogue Spreadsheets use a base armor of around 7700 as far as I know and having armor in your spreadsheet as well would help with three things:
1. Cross-class-comparison on boss fights
2. Worth of armor penetration gear
3. The higher your target's armor, the more damage comes from your SoC/SoB in comparison to autoattack and CS, so 0 armor calculations aren't correct if you look at the value of stats like spell damage.
For a Fury Warrior 1 Strength on gear becomes 1.1 Strength with BoK, 1.1 Strength are 2.2 Attack Power which become 2.42 through Unleashed Rage and 2.662 through Improved Berserker Stance. So 1 Strength is 2.662 AP and 1 AP is 1.21 AP.
For a Druid in 2.2, 1 Strength becomes 1.1 Strength with BoK which becomes 1.133 Strength with that 3% stats talent which becomes 1.3596 Strength through Heart of the Wild in Cat Form equalling 2.7192 AP which become 2.99112 AP with Unleashed Rage.
For a Druid in 2.3, it's the same as a Fury Warrior plus 3%, resulting in 2.74186 AP per Strength on gear.
So it's definitely not the highest.
Ah forgot about Improved Zerker Stance. Consider it corrected to "amongst the highest gains from Str", point is it's fairly huge.
Originally Posted by GSH
There actually might be a need for that point. Pursuit of Justice is an extra point, and 15% speed is attractive. If the new Vindication actually affects raid mobs (unlikely, but you never know), that might be worth taking as well. That means you might want to shift up to 6 points to Tier 3 Ret. Saving an unnecessary point on Imp Judgement could be handy.
Yes, but unless you're getting 5/5 Imp Might as well as 5/5 Benediction, then you won't be able to put that point into any of Vindication/PoJ in the first place. You'll need to put it in Tier 1-2 ret to get to Tier 3 (which leaves you with 1/5 deflection or Imp BoM 1/5 which are both equally irrelevant).
And if you do take 5/5 Imp Might as well as 5/5 Benediction, then you'll lack the points to put in Vindication/PoJ anyway as well as all the useful stuff, so it's a moot point.
This is considering a standard (5/8/48 build).
Originally Posted by Hidden
2. Worth of armor penetration gear
So far I've neglected armor penetration simply based on the fact that with SoC our physical/holy damage (=armor unmitigated) is about a 50/50 - 60/40 split, so at most it'll benefit ~50%-60% of our damage. As such, given logic and stat value/item value, I've "assumed" that it's not worthwhile to pursue.
I'd be interested if theory crafting/number crunching can prove this logic wrong however.
I'm wondering if it's possible to skip Benediction (or take less than 5 points in it) without major ill effects. I find it difficult to take all the Ret talents I want since I still need Precision from Prot.
So far I've neglected armor penetration simply based on the fact that with SoC our physical/holy damage (=armor unmitigated) is about a 50/50 - 60/40 split, so at most it'll benefit ~50%-60% of our damage. As such, given logic and stat value/item value, I've "assumed" that it's not worthwhile to pursue.
I'd be interested if theory crafting/number crunching can prove this logic wrong however.
That's probably true but there are items like Madness of the Betrayer that could be worth taking at some point even though they have some stat points invested in armor penetration. Also the other two points still stand and armor would probably increase the value of spelldamage and, based on your spelldamage, crit. Armor shouldn't be too hard to implement either, just take the formula from WoWWiki and set the base armor to around 7700 which is the most bosses' armor.
I have been trying to find values for JoW and JoL how they effect certain classes. For reference I took Blood legion WWS reports, calculated class attack "ticks" per second and tried to find HPS and MPS values for each class.
Judgement of Wisdom
Mage 25 MPS (125 mana per 5sec)
Anyone have better way to measure classes theoretical interaction with bosses that could trigger JoL and JoW? Is there better ways to present how judgements effect your raid members? Im open for all sugestions, this is just what I thought could be good way to show just few raw numbers how each judgement add.
The JoW numbers are using a spec that is about to be completely castrated, so they are completely unrealistic. A mage using full AM spam with MSD could get that much mana, but that's getting completely nerfed.
The JoL numbers look about right, are those including the UA bug or regular ticks?
I haven't noticed any extra damage on SoC hits. If you spec 0/3 crusade and hit SoC with a low range weapon, then spec 3/3 crusade your SoC hits will be exactly 3% higher.
Crusade is different to other DPS increasing talents though, it applies twice on crits. That's something that should be added to the DPS spreadsheet too. With 3/3 crusade our crit modifier is 106% and with 3/3 crusade and the meta gem it's 112%.
I think you maths is a little off. Crusade isn't applying twice on crits. It's just increasing the value of the crit by 3%
Hit without crusade = 100
Crit without crusade = 200
Hit With Crusade = 103
Crit with Crusade = 206
Yes the "Base hit (100)" to "Crit with crusade(206)" is 106%, but this in no way implies crusade is applying twice, as 200 * 1.03 = 206 (still showing a 3% increase)
Originally Posted by Hidden
Am I correct if I assume there's nothing like armor or boss level miss/dodge included in the spreadsheet? The Warrior and Rogue Spreadsheets use a base armor of around 7700 as far as I know and having armor in your spreadsheet as well would help with three things:
1. Cross-class-comparison on boss fights
2. Worth of armor penetration gear
3. The higher your target's armor, the more damage comes from your SoC/SoB in comparison to autoattack and CS, so 0 armor calculations aren't correct if you look at the value of stats like spell damage.
The spreadsheet is actually fairly comprehensive. It is modelled around a level 73 mob. Factors in miss/dodge/parry/glancing blows/resists/partial resists and armor levels.
The armor value is set at 6200 at the moment (most tbc bosses seem to have 6200/7700). However is the other spreadsheets are using 7700 will include that value.
Originally Posted by Valerys
I'm wondering if it's possible to skip Benediction (or take less than 5 points in it) without major ill effects. I find it difficult to take all the Ret talents I want since I still need Precision from Prot.
The spreadheet i have factors in armour penetration. Hard to rate it in terms of itemization as no one know how many points of armour pen you get for 1 itemization point. Some items with armour pen seem to have their stats distributed well whilst others not so well. So best to look at it item by item.
Originally Posted by Mearis
The JoL numbers look about right, are those including the UA bug or regular ticks?
I thought i had read the UA bug had been fixed now?
After further discussion and testing we’ve decided to add threat reduction deep in the paladin's retribution tree. Fanaticism will now reduce threat caused by all actions by 6/12/18/24/30%, in addition to its current effect.
This should help a ton. 30% threat reduction is way more than what most classes get (although a lot get total threat dumps)
I am no ret guru but now you guys have threat reduction hopefully your raid viability will go up tons. I would still like to find out if Vindication affects bosses.
I thought i had read the UA bug had been fixed now?
The UA bug has indeed been fixed now, but it's still a good thing to double check, since it's likely some WWS's will have Judgement of Light with the UA bug included from pre-2.2.
Edit: Though the numbers do seem about right in comparison to what I see in-game. Properly set up Assessment so it can track gains through JoL and JoW is nice for this kind of stuff.
I think you maths is a little off. Crusade isn't applying twice on crits. It's just increasing the value of the crit by 3%
Hit without crusade = 100
Crit without crusade = 200
Hit With Crusade = 103
Crit with Crusade = 206
Yes the "Base hit (100)" to "Crit with crusade(206)" is 106%, but this in no way implies crusade is applying twice, as 200 * 1.03 = 206 (still showing a 3% increase)
It doesn't work this way if you test it in game.
Hit without crusade = 100
Crit without crusade = 200
Hit with crusade = 103
Crit with crusade = 212
You can test it using a low damage range weapon. The rogue talent murder and the hunter slaying talents work the same way.
Figure that the average caster might get one spell every ~2-3 seconds. With a 50% proc rate, that's 10 procs a minute.
Well, we dont really care about assumptions. Its easy to check out from theorycraft posts for each class or just see one of the best Shadowpriest WWS logs for reference.
Hit without crusade = 100
Crit without crusade = 200
Hit with crusade = 103
Crit with crusade = 212
You can test it using a low damage range weapon. The rogue talent murder and the hunter slaying talents work the same way.
I noticed similar funkiness with crusade applying twice as well, although it wasn't specifically on crits, just specifically on SoC/SoB it appeared to be getting 2 applications.
Well, we dont really care about assumptions. Its easy to check out from theorycraft posts for each class or just see one of the best Shadowpriest WWS logs for reference.
Shadowpriest logs won't tell you anything, since you'll see the DoT ticks, then you have to guess how many spell casts were used, and how many of those were overlapping.
The fastest possible spellcasting is one every 1.5 seconds. No caster except a destruction warlock spamming searing pain comes anywhere near this.
Fire mages pretty much only chain cast fireball, with fireblast/scorch weaved in - the average is probably around 2.5 seconds.
Hunters get a huge bonus, due to their shot constantly triggering them.
Warlocks, depending on spec, are probably around ~2 seconds as well.
If you want a good back of the envolope calculation, 2 seconds as the exceptional case and 3 second as the lower case are good approximation for how often a caster hits a boss. Empirical data can be horrendously misleading if you don't know how to interpret it or don't know what you are looking it, as you did above with arcane missile spam.
Something I haven't really seen mentioned here explicitly: Alchemist's Stone.
Personally in most fights that don't have much AoE damage, I chug Super Mana Potions every cooldown, sometimes throw in a Fel Mana Potion instead if I'm really low and occasionally Dark Runes.
I've actually had very good results with Dreamless Sleep Potions in fights where you need to move back or have a couple seconds "aggro break".
With Alchemist's Stone, all of these (- the dark runes) give 40% more mana, Dreamless Sleep Potions which normally give 3600 mana (and HP) give you a fat 5040 mana/hp with Alchemist's Stone equipped.
Having all this extra mana gives me a lot of leeway in putting consecration into my spam rotations and has an even greater effect on undead/demon mobs where you can additionally use exorcism.
Also keep in mind Alchemist's Stone gives 15agi/15str/15int which all work towards our damage: 0.66% crit/36.3AP/~250 mana with kings and Div Str.
This aside, I've yet to compare which has the upper hand: "Real DPS trinket" (with a big static benefit like Bloodlust Brooch/Tsunami Talisman/MotB) + no consecration spam vs Alchemist's Stone + consecration spam.
I mentioned it in passing in my post but its absolutely essential to sustaining the mana generation I need to use the higher rotation I mentioned. Likewise though I have yet to see which is better a real DPS trinket or the Alchy stone. Seeing as how for me alchy stone is at least 88 dps (consecrate averages to 88 on most fights for me) + the stat bonuses I'd need to find a trinket that pushed 90 or more to do better.
1) Mob's armour increased to 7700 from 6200 to be in line with other sheets
2) Sunder Armor/FaerieFire/CoR all included in the Talents/Buffs/Pots Section
3) Band of Eternity (exhaulted) proc included as an estimation
4) A New Tab called "Item Calc" is now in the database. Items selected from the character sheet will appear in purple boxes in this sheet. Clicking the "Analyse Items" button will check each item you have against each item in the database, and any items found in the database will appear below your selected item with a dps increase of that item over yours. NOTE:-
A) This is based on SoC rotation not SOB
B) Due to varying gem slots, it would provide a nightmare to code. The way it works is that it gets a base dps of your gear if it had +10Str gems into all your gems slots and then assumes the items it compares it with also are filled with +10Str gems. (I know this will add a little error into some of the differences, but far easier to code this way). Any enchants you have selected will of course be applied to the other items it compares your items to.
The macros now totally don't work (coming from version 8), even in the new tab! I'm mostly kidding, as I know it'd be hard to convert this entire thing to OO standards, but I just don't own a copy of Excel. Heh. Now the 502 errors are with the trinkets, and the rings. x_x
I don't suppose this would work if I installed IE and had an Excel viewer, would it? I'm not sure how limited support a viewer would have for macros, etc.
10/18/07, 2:57 AM
