Fiola

Someone on the official forums pointed out that the SJ buff makes Benediction less needed. Here's some math to look at the benefit / talent point:

Base mana costs:
SoC R6 - 280 mana
Judgement - 148 mana (using thottbot values; I've had Benediction for so long I don't know what the base mana cost is)

Total: 428 mana for Seal + Judge, or 267 MP5 when judging every 8 seconds


Benediction:
SoC R6 - 238 mana
Judgement - 125 mana

Total: 363 mana for Seal + Judge, or 227 MP5 when judging every 8 seconds
Benefit: 65 mana saved; 40 MP5 when chain judging; 8 MP5 per talent point


Sanctified Judgement:
SoC R6 - 280 mana
Judgement - 148 mana; +224 mana for SoC R6

Total: 204 mana for Seal + Judge, or 127.5 MP5 when judging every 8 seconds
Benefit: 224 mana saved; 140 MP5 when chain judging; 46.7 MP5 per talent point


Benediction + Sanctified Judgement:
SoC R6 - 238 mana
Judgement - 125 mana; +190.4 mana for SoC R6

Total: 172.6 mana for Seal + Judge, or 108 MP5 when judging every 8 seconds
Benefit: 255.4 mana saved; 159.6 MP5 when chain judging

If we assume we're going to pick up Sanct. Judgement anyways, what is the marginal gain going from SJ alone to SJ + Benediction?

Marginal Gains
SJ benefit: 140 MP5
SJ + Benediction benefit: 160~ MP5
Benediction marginal benefit: 20 MP5, or 4 MP5 per talent point (counting the marginal 5 points spent).

20 MP5 is still nice, but iBoM looks much better in comparison, especially if your fellow paladin raiders tend not to pick up that talent.

 

Meuble

Is it sure that when taking Benediction, Sanctified Judgement use the new cost of the spell and not its base cost? I was wondering about that myself... we already have iBoM, so I think I'll go for benediction nonetheless but still, I'd like to be sure about that. Oh and we might want to redo those maths with a judgement every 9 secs. I'll do it tomorow.

 

Fiola

It was true from 2.0 (when SJ was introduced) to 2.2.


I forget what my 2.3 SJ mana returns were, but I'm 90% sure this hasn't changed in 2.3.


If your SJ returns 119 mana when you judge JoC, it's post Benediction. If it returns 140 mana, that's pre-Benediction (and would nullify that entire math post I just did).


Digging up a recent post-patch WWS, average SJ returns for me were 117. This was from using JoW; SoW costs 270 mana, so I'd expect to see 135 SJ ticks if SJ used the pre-Benediction mana cost. 117 is a little off from the expected 115, but it's close enough.
Fiola - WWS

 

Nayair

My WWS logs show 45-49% melee, 24-28% SoB when I'm not using consecrate or exorcism (so JoB and CS are the only other outgoing damage). Claiming that haste only effects 45% of a paladin's outgoing damage seems grossly inaccurate. This is without S3 gloves and with windfury and the DST, but the WF is a reasonable assumption and the DST/gloves aren't going to skew my numbers 25%.

 

Ayreon

It does boost your white and SoB damage though .)

 

Luxury

But not SoC damage, as shown in previous tests mentioned earlier in the thread, so for alliance paladins haste is not an attractive stat to take in place of crit, which is usually the stat it replaces on most gear.

 

flyingtoastr

Your numbers were wrong Fiola.

From the PTRs:

Without Benediction

SoC VI: 280
Judgement: 147
Mana Return from SJ: 224
Total Cost: 203

With 5/5 Benediction

SoC VI: 238
Judgement: 124
Mana Return from SJ: 190
Total Cost: 172

All in all its closer to a 19 Mp5 gain from taking 5/5 Benediction (19.375 to be exact) and Judging every 8 seconds. Over the course of a 10 minute fight thats an extra 2325 mana, or 9.8 more Crusader Strikes. Whether thats worth giving up the extra 44 AP is of personal choice. It really comes down to your raid makeup (Do you have enough Pallys to not have to single salv yourself? Do you have a raidbitch Holydin with Improved BoM and BoW? Are you willing to sacrifice BoK/Holy Talents to pick up both?). I personally would always take Benediction. You can never go wrong with more regen.

Divine Favor still costs mana.

 

Fiola

Hey, it's just 1 mana! That's within the realm of a rounding error. = P


As a mana regen nut, I'm inclined to keep my 5 points in benediction, but the math shows SJ cuts the value of Benediction in half. (40~ MP5 for Benediction alone -> 20~ MP5 if paired with SJ)


The actual value of that depends a little on your mana efficiency - 20 mp5 ~= 4 Mana per second; if you have 4 DPM efficiency (for SoC + CS from my last SWS parse), 4 MP5 supports 16 DPS (simplified). How much DPS does 44 AP add?

If we accept that most AP using classes can get 1~ DPS per 10 AP, it takes 4~ iBoM buffs for said talent to break even with Benediction.


For personal use, Benediction still looks like a more worthwhile talent. (I generally bless BoW/BoSalv before BoM, so I wouldn't get any personal benefit from iBoM, either)

 

JulianMaiev

The tooltip wording is ambiguous, so I'm hoping someone else has done the math on this:

What precisely does Imp SotC affect? Just attacks? Abilities? Spells?

 

CaptBooyah

All attacks against that mob, including spells and physical attacks.

 

Pitbuller

"If we accept that most AP using classes can get 1~ DPS per 10 AP, it takes 4~ iBoM buffs for said talent to break even with Benediction."
Right number is closer to 1dps per 3-4AP

Slow, slower, shaman weapon.

 

Wh0areume

The thing i'm having a problem with now is knowing the best times to pop avenging wrath.

 

Cromfel

You should use 1st AW pretty early in combat. Threat wont be much of problem anymore, and in worst case scenario you are close to threat cap with AW if your tank is even remotely competitive. Its rule of thumb that you will get 2 AWs in 1 bossfight, and thats something I personally try to aim for. I also use haste potions simultaneusly with AW. I can imagine it being huge boost to BE paladins (Damn you spoiled light stealers!). Something that needs to take under consider is the offset between AW and haste potion cooldowns. Do you want to delay the next haste potion to be used with next AW. If its very likely that you wont get 3rd haste potion during the fight, then save it for next AW. Other than that chain the potions as cooldown allows.

Pretty important thing to take into account is possible CC of boss. Archimonde fear, airburst, mother teleport and so on. When you plan to use AW make sure to do it instantly after said CC. Just to make sure you get all out of the cooldown.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Dolamroth

Just wondering what would Boost my dps more insane Str pots or haste pots?

 

Cromfel

Edit: See below for more accurate results.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

felirx

Quickly plugging in to bellator's spreadsheet, both pots gives
Haste = +180 dps Soc, 262 dps Sob for 15 second
Insane Strenght = +71 dps Soc, +77 dps Sob for 15 seconds

Naturally the actual DPS numbers will vary depending on gear but you can see the difference in the pots quite clearly.

 

Cromfel

Did you use bellators sheet?

Edit: Just checked from my ingame WWS and haste potion would be around 177 dps, so thats pretty accurate.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Strifen

Well, this was fun. Ret paladin dps pushed to the limit: Wow Web Stats

Didn't get to fully use 2cnd AW and forget to eat +20 str food. Figure once I get the rest of the upgrades I need I can easily break 2k DPS in ideal situations like this. I know my group was stacked to hell and I cycled lusts to the meele (it's what we always do however). Can't wait for the cursader strike change, that's going to be a huge boost to my DPS. Thing are looking good.

 

Valerys

Just keep in mind that on some boss fights saving your Forbearance for Divine Shield is better. On Vashj phase 1 for example, I find it best to save it in case I get a static charge.

 

Kris

Finally got my Torch of the Damned and the results are pretty amazing, too bad I was using old damage meters and had to hold dps cause it was showing me constantly on the edge of threat: WWS

 

Cromfel

Synergy with SOB and haste is just insane. And Im afraid that it will be most likely nerfed shortly after 2.3.2 only that I hope none of Alliance paladins are receiving end of this nerf where SoB works so damn well under right circumstances.

.:. Retribution Paladin Hideout .:. http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/

 

Mearis

I am rather interested in some maths on the value of ret paladins assuming windfury slots are taken, or assuming that the opportunity cost for taking a ret paladin is one melee ending up outside of the windfury group.

We tipically run with 1 enh shaman, 1 or 2 dps warriors, and 2 or 3 rogues and 2 feral druids. We almost always have the enh shaman with the melees, but the resto shaman is almost always with a shadowpriest and some casters, expecially on fights that require a lot of chain healing. We have been trying to recruit extra shamans with no luck.

Is it worth it to bring a ret paladin over an extra ranged DPS class assuming he won't get windfury? Is it worth it to switch a ret paladin into a group instead of a rogue and leave a group without battleshout/unleashed rage? It is obvious that a paladin gets more from windfury than a rogue, but does a paladin get more from ap than a rogue does? UR + BS is nearly ~700 AP or so.

It seems like at least for me the limiting factor is that melees require a hell of a lot more support than say an extra warlock, and the amount of support you can bring is limited wihout twisting your entire raid make up.

 

• Zurm

My gear is fairly sub-par (Armory) at the moment compared to the rest of our dps, and when put in with the melee I was right up there with our rogues. My group wasn't even that impressive as our fury warrior wasn't online last night (3x rogue, me, enh sham). I expect when my gear gets better I'll be competitive with all but our 4pc t6 warlock and 2x warglaive rogue.

 

CaptBooyah

How often could a retadin get away with using haste pots instead of mana pots to keep his mana up?

Only way I can think is when BoW, JoW, windfury and a shadowpriest is present... or perhaps spiritual attunement provides enough mana return to not worry about the shadowpriest? Maybe just on short fights under 5mins?

I played with ret in a ZA raid last week and I did drink mana pots during the dragonhawk boss Jan'alai mainly because I consecrated to help with adds. My dps was quite decent with my kara gear/S2 gear in mind so Im wondering if its almost better to get dangerously low on mana while using haste pots on cooldown.

 

Kris

Once 2.3.2 hits mana shouldn't be any problem unless you insist on spamming max rank consecration all fight.