1/2 Improved Judgement is generally a loss of DPS over 2/2.

The absolute worst case scenario with 2/2 is that every 24 seconds, you make a white hit without a seal being active. To throw out some numbers, based on my gear, that would be a loss of 12 dps if I instead only judged every 9 seconds.

However, that worst case isn't really possible in the real world given my swing speed. The most likely case (if I'm not paying attention) is that I'm dropping one proc chance every 72 seconds, making 2/2 a 5 DPS increase over 1/2.

If I am paying attention, all I have to do is not Judge if I'm going to swing in the next 1.5 seconds. Doing that still averages me a 10 DPS increase over 1/2.

So in my specific case, that one talent point is giving me 10 DPS. Is a talent worth 10 DPS? I like to think so, because where else would that talent point go?

Rather than just throwing out some arbitrary numbers, why not punch up the dps cycle spreadsheet on page 1? It sounds like you're judging every time its up regardless of the GCD, and assuming that its the best way to do things. Example 4 in the spreadsheet uses a 9-second Judgement cooldown and shows a 28dps increase versus the 8 second cooldown rotation used in example 1.

My numbers come directly from the spreadsheet. Well, technically the spreadsheet says I gain 13 DPS with an 8 second cooldown over a 9, but it's not smart enough to realize I might wait 9.5 seconds to judge Blood once every 72 seconds.

Regardless, the increase in DPS from 1/2 Improved Judgement is very very small. There isn't much else you can put it in (Improved BoM is for raidbitch holydins IMO) and it does offer a lot more versatility when it comes to rejudging multiple targets. If you absolutely must maximize your DPS to the greatest degree you can do it, but typically I would just sink the extra talent point in it. Its not a huge loss or gain either way.

I've yet to see a spreadsheet that makes a weapon-speed based rotation that would take into account not judging if GCD would interrupt seal dmg and judging when it wouldn't interrupt. The rotation spreadsheet, last time I looked at it, showed for both rotations either judging on cooldown and resealing later or judging only when you can instantly reseal. No spreadsheet shows a rotation where you would judge when you can't reseal only if you will be able to reseal after the GCD but before the next white hit.

There's also the issue of if your jdugement is up almost 1.5s before your CS for whatever reason - there would be a breakpoint were it's better to judge+reseal and then CS than to CS and then judge+reseal, assuming you can't do what I said above (as in, your melee swing will hit before you could reseal so you can't judge+CS and then reseal without losing seal dmg).

I'd like to see a more conditional rotation that will say "when judgement is up, if GCD will be up for resealing before next melee attack, judge. Otherwise wait until right after next melee swing." (assumine a weapon speed >=3 otherwise you may get 2 melee swings until you can reseal again so you'll have to wait with the judgement until the next one).
Modeling this rotation with 8s judgement and then seeing if it actually ever uses judgement in <9s intervals will show if there can be any DPS increase from 9s to 8s, and TBH it's kinda hard to believe 8s wouldn't be more dps than 9s. Not to mention the actual difference is dependant on weapon speed, which again isn't taken into consideration in the rotation spreadsheet afaik unless it was updated.

The main point of the two rotations isn't DPS with 8s vs 9s. In all reality, they should be doing the same DPS (in the initial screenshot, the reason 9sec pulls ahead of 8sec is due to the very beginning). Regardless of what happens, you'll want to use CS every time it's up. That leaves Judging and Resealing to be done around that GCD. Both rotations only Judge on average every 9 seconds, so while having a 9sec Judgement over 8sec won't really net you any extra DPS, it keeps you from accidentally Judging and resealing early, which could put your CS on GCD.

Is there a better way for an alliance pally to handle kaz'rogal other than wear ~250 shadow res, use r1 soc and hope for resists?

yes, wear 350 shadow resist

Working on it..

Azgalor and Kaz'Rogal seem to be pretty crappy fights for us, without mega resist gear we can't stay on the boss for very long (I just nuked adds on azgalor) and and with mega resist gear we do average damage. Archimonde however was fun, I ended up around 4th behind our much better geared (pve wise) rogue, ench shaman and dps warr which was respectable.

Does anyone have a mod that checks the targets debuffs when you crusader strike and will let your raids other paladins via pm or message to a channel know to rejudge jow and jol. They fell off a couple of times when I got air bursted then feared for miles when I landed.

Demon can tell you what debuffs are on a boss quickly and easily, but I don't know of anything that can actually tell other people when they fall off. If there are any savvy programmers out there it would be an excellent idea for a mod though.

I just have a macro that says something along the lines of "Rebuff Judgements" in the pally chat that I spam whenever something falls off.

I've bugged all the paladins in my guild to download DeMon in addition to using it myself. They use Clique to heal so it doesn't matter who their target is or who their focus, so they can just target/focus the boss and monitor for themselves. If something falls off and they don't rejudge it in a timely fashion, I either spam the pally channel or call out on Vent "Rejudge Wisdom/Light"

If you use
/cast Judgement
/cast Seal of XYZ (rank e)

You can just push the macro when you have no seal up and it will skip the judgement, putting the seal up.

Can anyone please post his Tankstats (Blockrating, Parry, Dodge) of the equipment he is using in the Hyjal waves as trashtank whilst being retribution skilled? Would be very nice.
Reason: Guildleader says: why bring a retri paladin that can not offtank over a furywarrior that is able to tank the waves.

I'm beating up on a Servant of Allistarj right now to level my one-handed axe skill, and I'm witnessing some very odd behavior from the Libram of Avengement. Specifically, it looks like the Justice buff is being refreshed with every swing I take.

All I'm doing are plain autoattacks while the Servant is judged with Light, and the Justice buff just keeps reapplying. Even when it falls of completely, it just pops up again with no interaction from me.

I turned away to let the Judgement fall off, and the refreshing stopped. As soon as I judged Light, it started going off again.

I tried it with Judgement of the Crusader, and it's working as well. Judgement of Wisdom works too.

I switched to my Hammer of Destiny, essentially putting me back to my normal PvE set, and Justice is still refreshing every hit.

This is pretty big. Can anyone else play around with it and confirm it works? Justice is not only triggering from Judgement of Light/Wisdom/the Crusader when the tooltip specifically only mentions Command, Righetousness, Blood and Vengeance, but its also triggering from plain old white hits as long as the target has a Judgement on him.

This was a bug from way back on the 2.3 PTR and supposedly Blizzard had fixed it. It seems that they might not have, but I'm not complaining.

last week when our prot paladin was MIA, I offtanked the ghoul etc waves in hyjal.
My gear is something along the lines of few Karazhan epics, chest form Anetheron, TK ring and rest blues. If I we're specced prot, I would be crushing immune. Granted I died a few times, firstly due to my own stupidity by taking couple waves of shadow bolts and partly due to having an abomination or two whacking at the same time. With proper tanking gear and not some heroic blues, It's more than doable to tank the same packs that prot paladins do and not die. The TPS will be naturally lower and you will take a bit more damage.

Yea but it has no built in check to avoid resealing while you're already sealed up and wasting mana.

Also if you press it during GCD (bad practice, but it happens), you don't reseal and have to be extra cautious to avoid a whole rotation of no seal up.

Is there anyway to do something like

/castsequence reset=9 Judgement, Seal of Blood(Rank 1)

Where it will auto-reseal after I judge?
I don't use a swing timer, but I really liked the old

/Cast Judgement
/StopCasting
/Cast Seal of Command
/StopCasting

Because it would auto-reseal. Only thing is, pressing it when Judgement isn't up and losing mana.
Any way to have the best of both worlds?

If you want a one-button macro for DPS, you can try:
#showtooltip Crusader Strike
/startattack
/castsequence reset=6 Crusader Strike, Judgement, Seal of Command

Is this one button DPS using the right spellorder? I thought the best way to maximize dps is to use Judgement, CS, CS, Judgement, CS, Judegement, CS, CS, Judgement, CS ... and so on: called the 2:1:2 model-
In your castsequence it is only one CS, Judgement. SO you are missing one CS each second cycle.

Or am I completly wrong?

A bit more SoB versus SoC raiding difference using: Random average BE Paladin WWS

SoB

Damage dealt to foes : 381 166

49.42% Melee 188 362 (Melee 166 930 + WF 21 432)
19.02% Seal of Blood 72 510
20.44% Crusader Strike 77 908
9.35% Judgement of Blood 35 620
1.21% Exorcism 4 602
0.57% Consecration 2 164
Total: 100%


SoC

SoC will deal damage as follows.
(72510 SoB * 2.10641 SoC multiplier * 0.4317 Proc% * WF reduction 0.872)
I added WF reduction as they can not proc SoC, while they do proc SoB. SoC multiplier means damage that is dealt by SoC with exactly same gear but adding SotC spell damage trough coefficiency and giving the addition multipliers according to vengeance, SA, iSA etc.

Damage dealt to foes : 358 108

52.59% Melee 188362 (Melee 166 930 + WF 21 432)
16.06% Seal of Command 57 496
21.76% Crusader Strike 77 908
7.70% Judgement of Command 27 576
1.29% Exorcism 4 602
0.60% Consecration 2 164
Total: 100%

So Bloodelf SoB users will deal ~6.5% more damage under normal raiding conditions. Lets add Alliance expertise and we are at 5.25%. Thats 5.25% more damage as "racial" for being BE. I think the faction difference should be removed, combined with silence when thinking of PvP and PvE the horde Paladin isnt really the same spec at all what alliance Retribution paladins are.



Here is how Haste effects both factions in increased total damage (Including all attacks). This is applied to everything. Haste potions, Bloodlust/Heroism and just normal haste trough gear. WF could be considered as constant 20% haste for BE.

I got a question about what's better for increasing your DPS if you kinda start "naked/new" as a retribution Paladin.

I have been Holy since BC, my retri stuff is all blues, with honor stuff (belt, waist, rings, neck, boots) and season2 shoulders. My weapon is Glaive of the Pit.

I have a lot of arena points left over from season2 and i am asking myself if it's DPS wise better to get a good weapon first (S2 or S3) or to upgrade blue armor pieces with season3 armor ?

€: I want to use it mainly for Solo PvP, BG and farming. Propably not arena. That's why i'm asking this here, where it is about DPS and not survivability and whatnot.