Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 484

Wrathblood · 11/11/08, 12:31 PM

moderators, please delete

Fiola · 11/11/08, 1:00 PM

On random judgement failure - I particularly notice this in PvP when I cast Judgement at the same time as I'm CC'd - Judgement will go on cooldown, but no damage or debuff will land.

That's a little different from what others are reporting (since I doubt you get sheeped/stunned much while grinding), but it's probably related.

steenkie · 11/11/08, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Fiola

On random judgement failure - I particularly notice this in PvP when I cast Judgement at the same time as I'm CC'd - Judgement will go on cooldown, but no damage or debuff will land.

That's a little different from what others are reporting (since I doubt you get sheeped/stunned much while grinding), but it's probably related.

I ran kara 2 nights ago in 1hour 15 min. I never ran out of mana spamming all available abilities. Twice during trash I drank to full but it was not neccessary.

After, I PVPed for aprox 8ish hours and 6 hours last night. Multiple times Judgement just did not do anything. It did not report a miss or show up in combat log.

I attempted to Isolate possible issues with the following.

Stoppped using my AW/Judgement macro - did not resolve issue
Stopped using CS directly after a judgement - did not resolve issue
Judged during CC - issue occurred but not consistantly enough to rule out latency
Only used judgement during combat - Issue appeared to occur at random. Cooldown insued with no display in combat log
Judged with all 3 types - Type of Judgement does not appear to change the result

During the judging period where I ONLY judged targets in PVP. These numbers were manually counted and entered into a simple xls file by alt-tabbing after each judgement and the result. I have a separate chat pane for damage I do. Judgements are included and are time stamped.

125 Judgements of Light
7 resulted in cooldown with no list in combat log - recount only showed 118 judgements
125 Judgements of Wisdom
13 resulted in cooldown with no list in combat log - recount only showed 112 judgements
125 judgements of justice
8 resulted in cooldown with no list in combat log - recount only showed 117 judgements

I assume that recount is only responding to information counted from combat log? These do not appear to be counted as a miss but rather a ghost cooldown where global/ability cooldowns are triggered but nothing happens.

Is anyone else finding similar issues?

**I did not keep similar tracking during PVE so it is very likely it also happens in PVE.

Saltycracker · 11/11/08, 1:33 PM

Judgment of Light is counter intuitive for a Ret paladin to use for 2 reasons:

1) JoL self heals do not activate Spiritual Attunement. If a Ret judges Wisdom they are sure to get mana back rather than relying on a Holy keeping up the judgment.

2) JoL is extra threat that we dont need, especially on fights with high raid damage. I was offtanking Felmyst as prot last night doing nothing but judging light on the boss and I pulled aggro off the main tank. A prot paladin would be much better off judging this.

Now, the Ret paladin is the best candidate to judge it given that ours scales better, but these externalities are something to consider.

Merovengian · 11/11/08, 2:42 PM

Originally Posted by Saltycracker

Judgment of Light is counter intuitive for a Ret paladin to use for 2 reasons:

1) JoL self heals do not activate Spiritual Attunement. If a Ret judges Wisdom they are sure to get mana back rather than relying on a Holy keeping up the judgment.

2) JoL is extra threat that we dont need, especially on fights with high raid damage. I was offtanking Felmyst as prot last night doing nothing but judging light on the boss and I pulled aggro off the main tank. A prot paladin would be much better off judging this.

Now, the Ret paladin is the best candidate to judge it given that ours scales better, but these externalities are something to consider.

Its called HoSalv. /targetself=cast

If youre pulling aggro from the raid healing of JoL you need to Gkick your MT.

Saladin · 11/11/08, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by Merovengian

Its called HoSalv. /targetself=cast

If youre pulling aggro from the raid healing of JoL you need to Gkick your MT.

It's not that simple. I don't think any ret has pulled a boss via JoL. But consider adds that may not be glued to your tank (i.e., murlocs on morogrim). JoL is an raid-wide aoe instant heal that you cannot "turn off" when adds come into play. I have little doubt that there won't be a situation where that much threat could be a bad thing.

Aurarius · 11/11/08, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by Valerys

Just wanted to point out here that this napkin math (and others like it) fails to account for GCDs. Simply put, you will never be able to spam that number of abilities within 2 minutes, simply because there will be many clashing GCDs in that period.

Yeah this was a point I had meant to elaborate on but then neglected to. With the clashing GCD's in mind has it been established what ability should be used in terms of a priority? Purely based off of intuition (probably bad) one would assume that for maximum DPS (single target, not undead/demon):
1) Judgement
- Mostly because of recoil gains from SA and JoTW
2) Hammer of Wrath
- Obviously if available

And there is where I get confused.

Crusader Strike/Divine Storm? I'm caught up here because of Righteous Vengeance coming off of Divine Storms and not Crusader Strikes. Obviously consecrate has to be taken into account too.

And the rotation changes up some for undead because of Exorcism and Holy Wrath. Apologies if I missed this earlier in the thread, but taking some mana issues into concern is this worth a re-visit?

Edit
Regarding Judging light versus Wisdom I think it's all situational. We were having some fun in AQ40 (trying to down C'Thun for that achievement) and we had difficulty with the twin emps. The issue came from their warp and aggro reset (key component here being aggro reset) and vigilance. Either way, I'm just using this as an illustration to why Judging Light is kinda situational. Depending on the aggro mechanics of the fight a simple Hand of Salvation isn't gonna bail you out sometimes.

Harrygoz · 11/11/08, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by Aurarius

Yeah this was a point I had meant to elaborate on but then neglected to. With the clashing GCD's in mind has it been established what ability should be used in terms of a priority? Purely based off of intuition (probably bad) one would assume that for maximum DPS (single target, not undead/demon):
1) Judgement
- Mostly because of recoil gains from SA and JoTW
2) Hammer of Wrath
- Obviously if available

And there is where I get confused.

Crusader Strike/Divine Storm? I'm caught up here because of Righteous Vengeance coming off of Divine Storms and not Crusader Strikes. Obviously consecrate has to be taken into account too.

And the rotation changes up some for undead because of Exorcism and Holy Wrath. Apologies if I missed this earlier in the thread, but taking some mana issues into concern is this worth a re-visit?

The priority system has been discussed (i'll look for a post later) but the main point of the post you quoted was that if you don't take GCD into account, your "calculated" mana usage will be much higher than actual mana usage

Mordekhuul · 11/11/08, 3:34 PM

Originally Posted by steenkie

Stoppped using my AW/Judgement macro - did not resolve issue

Complete side-issue, but doesn't AW trigger a global cooldown now? Has seemed so to me, since 3.0.2, which would render such a macro much less useful anyway.

Affection · 11/11/08, 3:38 PM

Originally Posted by Aurarius

And there is where I get confused.

Crusader Strike/Divine Storm? I'm caught up some where because of Righteous Vengeance coming off of Divine Storms and not Crusader Strikes. Obviously consecrate has to be taken into account too.

I'm pretty sure most of us have come to the conclusion that Crusader Strike should be used ahead of Divine Storm, mostly due to the RAW damage differences. Since both abilities are now Physical damage, their differences show up a lot easier now.

Crusader Strike + Art of War is 120% weapon damage ( says 121% on tooltip ) 6 second cool down.
Divine Storm + Art of War is 110% weapon damage 10 second cooldown.

Tho Divine Storm does gain RV, it relies on it to crit to gain this effect.

The largest portion of RV damage done comes from judgements. The RAW damage from judgements are significantly larger than Divine Storm, they will skew the damage on a plain and simple look at a recount.

Using some napkin math CS would surpass DS over a 20 second span, or I should say after 2 Divine Storm uses.

Weapon damage = 1000 going to assume 100% crit chance just to signify RV proccing. Crit rates will be different due to RNG.

CS (1.2*1000) * 2 = 2400 * 3 = 7200 Assuming 3 CS crits in a 20 second span so a total of 7200 damage

DS (1.1*1000) *2 = 2200 * 2 = 4400 Assuming 2 DS crits in a 20 second span
RV (2200 * .4) * 2 = 1760

Totaling 4400 + 1760 = 6160

So CS is up by 1040 damage in this time.

The damage difference would be higher even with a zero crit chance. So technically showing CS would surpass DS in any given situation.

CS will do more damage in 20 seconds than DS will.

The world isn't perfect and RNG can be a bastard from time to time, so the results would vary in action. Also there would be a larger window for the damage to be done in as well, since DS won't come off cooldown exactly at 20 seconds after you begin dpsing. Just trying to explain 2 uses of Divine Storm and how many Crusader Strikes get used in this time.

Of course this changes during aoe.

Janraea · 11/11/08, 3:43 PM

Originally Posted by Saladin

It's not that simple. I don't think any ret has pulled a boss via JoL. But consider adds that may not be glued to your tank (i.e., murlocs on morogrim). JoL is an raid-wide aoe instant heal that you cannot "turn off" when adds come into play. I have little doubt that there won't be a situation where that much threat could be a bad thing.

Turning off JoL is pretty easy - judge justice and light is gone.

Valerys · 11/11/08, 3:55 PM

Originally Posted by Harrygoz

The priority system has been discussed (i'll look for a post later) but the main point of the post you quoted was that if you don't take GCD into account, your "calculated" mana usage will be much higher than actual mana usage

That was indeed my point. The theorycraft maths commonly posted on forums make us spend more mana than we will in practice.

• frmorrison · 11/11/08, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Janraea

Turning off JoL is pretty easy - judge justice and light is gone.

Judgement does have an 8 second cooldown so depending when an add phase starts you may have a bit before you can Knock off Light. It is nice to not have to worry about aggro at all, so that is why some Ret Pallies judge Wisdom.

Peeb · 11/11/08, 4:29 PM

Going back to the subject of AW/DS/Forbearance, would it be that huge an issue to just make casting Divine Shield remove AW from you? While you're at it, why not make AW uncastable while you're under the effects of AW? Great. Now paladins can use AW, still be able to bubble, and won't be able to use both at once. Using bubble during AW would be discouraging because you'd be losing seconds of AW, but not impossible because you aren't locked out of DS.

edit - english

steenkie · 11/11/08, 5:26 PM

Originally Posted by Mordekhuul

Complete side-issue, but doesn't AW trigger a global cooldown now? Has seemed so to me, since 3.0.2, which would render such a macro much less useful anyway.

It simply condenses two buttons into a single button. Just me being lazy but it works and isn't a cause of the phenomenon.

A quick question on the Rotation I should be using. Since Judging Blood does more damage is the rotation...

JoB > CS > Con > DS

Looking at the spreadsheets it is unclear what my opening move should be. I am using an 8 sec judgement without the -1 set bonus.