I believe at that point, sarcasm aside, skill would come into play. There's no reason to nerf one of the best things about Ret, and a major portion of why we get raid slots, just because of situational threat issues. We're never going to see raidwide no-threat healing, same thing goes for Spriests.

I dont see why there is even still a discussion about whether we should be judging wisdom. We are a dps spec, and thankfully ones that can now do credible dps. It's your job to do as much damage as possible given your available tools.

Learning when to hold back and/or change your rotation because of situational fights is part of the game. I personally dont want to see anything else added to make the raiding process easier (IE threatless healing JoL). Consider it from a Dev's perspective, we still have a 5min CD threat drop/immunity 'O S%$7' button, if you are in a situation where your personal dps is so godly that you cant be tanked for, use it...

.... Or just HoSalv.

29.412% crit is where DS overtakes CS in DamagePerCast

There was a post by one of the better math-minded Ret Pallies, and the Crit for DS to bypass CS was what I recall, it was a week ago, 307%.

So CS is always better than DS in a single target situation. Also, this is further strengened by the CS Libram that should be the most popular libram.

Thank you for that part. I recently woke up when I posted my last response. My brain was still trashed from last night.



Another added bonus to CS. Adding additional AP is never bad =p

Personally, I think it goes more towards preference than situation/skill. I don't want to count on a holy paladin to keep wisdom up always and even though another's JoL provides minute amounts of SA mana it is still mana. Every little bit I can get I will use to milk more DPS.

For those reasons I prefer JoW. It's not because of threat, although I have died more than a couple times because new adds come straight for me. I still agree that JoL is an effective way to go, don't get me wrong. I just don't think there is only one right answer on this one.

I would say given the scarce amount of intellect on level 80 DPS gear, JoW is a better choice in most situations. In general the mechanics of Hand of Salvation kind of lack the immediate "go away" effect other threat reduction abilities have on aoe packs and such, so that's a decent motivator too. Between Chain Heal, Wild Growth and CoH (barring the changes Blizzard has mentioned in the works regarding the last two spells), raid wide healing is more or less covered, so it wouldn't kill anyone if you use your judgements for your own devices. In the event that your tank is a Paladin, he should be using it as part of his threat rotation anyway.

Not to stray off topic but what was the reasoning behind dumping the "refreshes all Judgements on the target" effect on Crusader Strike, and would it be unreasonable to restore that effect?

If I'm not mistaken, it's because JoW/JoL were revamped into powerful, scaling raid buffs and legitimate reason to bring paladins to raids. Giving a Ret paladin the capacity to maintain both buffs solo veers a little too close to making them overpowered in Blizzard's vision. Furthermore, Blizzard expects every paladin to judge as part of their rotation, which further dilutes the effect.

Holy is required to judge something at least once per minute to gain an benefit from their Tier 10 5-point talent Judgements of the Pure. JoL is their only baseline "AoE" heal so it's certainly a good choice, but as many have observed in this thread, Ret can put that JoL to much more use for the raid, at the expense of risked mana loss for our rotations.

So in summary, Holy judges Justice (non-vital to keep up so no need to judge more than once a minute), Ret judges wisdom, Prot judges Light for added threat and everyone's happy?

For the sake of discussion, assume a 10man raid setting with only 1 paladin, who is Ret, specced 0\10\61..
What kind of numbers for mana regen per minute vs raidhealing/dps lost are we looking at?

Removing the Prot+JoL and Holy+JoJ factor from the equation, does the mana gain outweigh the raid heals?

Napkinmath please

I thought it was proven that your own Jol provided SA return?