Retribution DPS Theorycraft - Page 486

eMagdAeH · 11/11/08, 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Ngita

I thought it was proven that your own Jol provided SA return?

Not to my knowledge, anyone have a blue post or data tested in game on this? It wouldn't make much sense though since it is considered a heal you cast on yourself versus another paladin's JoL counts as a heal cast by them on you.

Starfox · 11/12/08, 10:33 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

There was a post by one of the better math-minded Ret Pallies, and the Crit for DS to bypass CS was what I recall, it was a week ago, 307%.

So CS is always better than DS in a single target situation. Also, this is further strengened by the CS Libram that should be the most popular libram.

307%? pretty flawed math.
CS: 110% Wpndmg, +10% TAoW
DS: 100% Wpndmg, +10% TAoW, 40% DoT on crit

0% crit, easy ;x
110% * 1.1 = 121% Wpndmg > 110% Wpndmg

100% crit

CS: 110% * 1.1 * 2 = 242% Wpndmg
DS: 100% * 1.1 * 2 * 1.4 = 308% Wpndmg

242% < 308%

The intersection is at ~29.xx% crit, Crusade/Vengeance/SwiftRetribution are left out because if those 15% are multiplicative they would be the same on both sites, and additive to 110% for CS would lower the intersection point even more.

CS: (110% +3% +3% +9%) * 1.1 * 2 = 275% Wpndmg
DS: (100% +3% +3% +9%) * 1.1 * 2 * 1.4 = 354.2% Wpndmg

Intersection where DS takes over: 27.78% crit

But yea, if you got the CS=+AP ilbram it is probably best to get max uptime on the buff

Avitus · 11/12/08, 10:56 AM

I had to cringe while reading this.

Starfox you're talking about damage per cast (which as mentioned dozens of times before is completely irrelevant), while frmorrison is talking about damage over time ("DPS"). Please actually read what people are saying instead of talking past each other.

frmorrison is correct, you always use CS over DS regardless of crit rate. If you take the limit of CS casts/DS casts ("5/3") and try to equate when 3 DS will be worth more than 5 CS with variable crit rate, the answer is never. Hence CS will always have priority, regardless of your crit rate.

Edit:

For reference, the full explanation is here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17193-p...77/#post960207 and the math for it can be found here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t17193-p...78/#post960448

Bruencairn · 11/12/08, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Starfox

307%? pretty flawed math.
CS: 110% Wpndmg, +10% TAoW
DS: 100% Wpndmg, +10% TAoW, 40% DoT on crit

0% crit, easy ;x
110% * 1.1 = 121% Wpndmg > 110% Wpndmg

100% crit

CS: 110% * 1.1 * 2 = 242% Wpndmg
DS: 100% * 1.1 * 2 * 1.4 = 308% Wpndmg

242% < 308%

The intersection is at ~29.xx% crit, Crusade/Vengeance/SwiftRetribution are left out because if those 15% are multiplicative they would be the same on both sites, and additive to 110% for CS would lower the intersection point even more.

CS: (110% +3% +3% +9%) * 1.1 * 2 = 275% Wpndmg
DS: (100% +3% +3% +9%) * 1.1 * 2 * 1.4 = 354.2% Wpndmg

Intersection where DS takes over: 27.78% crit

But yea, if you got the CS=+AP ilbram it is probably best to get max uptime on the buff

DPS is what matters rather than damage per cast.
That being said the original calculated intersection we are quoting was, I'm pretty sure, before the 40% dot and before the 2pct7 bonus. Assuming your numbers are right it's pretty easy to fix up. Just divide your CS by 6.5 and your DS by 10.5 giving a rough intersection of 44-45%crit before 2pc t7.

It seams that this number might well be achievable come wrath especially since every %extra dmg such as meta gem, sunders etc push this intersection point lower. It might be worth quickly reopening and redoing the calculation in more detail(for dps not for damage per cast obviously) with and without the 2pc t7 just to be sure. If nothing else the FCFS priority might very well change during AW if you have 2pct7.

Avitus · 11/12/08, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by Bruencairn

That being said the original calculated intersection we are quoting was, I'm pretty sure, before the 40% dot and before the 2pct7 bonus.

They did include the 40% dot, but not the 2pct7 bonus (+10% to DS damage). However still, even with the bonus, CS DPS will always be ahead, regardless of crit rate.

5 * 1.1 * dmg * (1 + crit/100) = 3 * 1.1 * dmg * (1+ 1.4*crit/100)

5.5 + 5.5*crit/100 = 3.3 + 4.62*crit/100

220 = (4.62 - 5.5) * crit

crit = -250%

Kinmaul · 11/12/08, 1:39 PM

Maybe I'm just going crazy, but after raiding and testing this a bit something is definately wrong. I was wondering if any other Ret paladins have noticed this so I'm posting this here to get more feedback.

Observation:
If you are spamming your Judgement hotkey while it's on cd and it comes up the spell will sometimes 'fizzle'. The animation goes off, you get charged the mana, but no damage is done, no judgement effect is placed upon the boss, and JotW does not proc. The only problem is that I cannot consistantly reproduce the bug. I'm going to spend some time on the test dummies and see if I can get more consistant results. Sometimes the bug crops up a bunch and other times it's fine. However this completely destroys my dps when the bug does crop up. I did 2300 dps on Brut last night which is only around 100 dps more than what I was doing pre-3.0; normally I'm sitting at around ~3k dps since the patch.

Does this happen to anyone else? Also I have only been using JoW. I haven't ran any tests with JoL/JoJ at all yet.

Edit:
I also threw up a post on the Blizzard forums earlier here and it seems like other people are having the same problem.

Mearis · 11/12/08, 2:06 PM

This is a wierd bug that strikes priests as well. For example, if you spam fear right after a stun or right after a GCD, sometimes the fear animation will go off, fear gets the cooldown, but nobody gets feared - you don't even get a resist message.

You can also see it sometimes if you spam mindblast / shadow word death, sometimes if you hit the SW: D too soon after you hit the mindblast button, you can get a wierd effect where the SW: D goes off, but the mindblast does not.

My hypothesis is that it has to do with your client believing you are out of the GCD and the server not believing you, but I haven't really been able to narrow it down.

Nhul · 11/12/08, 2:35 PM

The Judgment bug has been reported and noted by Blizzard. It happens far to often to be ignored.

Babathong · 11/12/08, 3:04 PM

This is a bit off topic from some of the recent posts, but I am curious to see what some of your thoughts are. Now that the stat prioritizing has been reworked to some degree, haste has taken a significant dive in efficiency. At least this is the impression Iv been under thus far. Before 3.0 haste for ret pallies was awesome, especially one that used SoB. From the posts that Iv read so far on stat priority, haste is almost dead last after 3.0.

With that said, why in the world is there so much haste on all of the ret pally T7 gear??? I was shocked to see it on almost every piece in the set. I am starting to think that they developed the gear pre 3.0 when haste was actually good....lol.

Does anyone know why our gear is stat prioritized like this????

Avitus · 11/12/08, 3:29 PM

The thing is after Str (with insane gains) and Hit/Expertise (which both have caps), pretty much all stats for us have become very lackluster (haste gone down with all our instant attacks, armor pen gone way down considering we do ~50/50 holy damage now compared to the traditional 25-30/70-75). As a matter of fact, they've become so laughably bad you gain about the same from spelldamage point to point (Redcape's sheet). Crit is actually surprisingly better now even.

At the same time, they can't just have 1 stat on our gear (Strength) since we'd also lose considering splitting stats allows you to have more from an itemvalue.

A slightly different question out of this is: Is really Haste/ArmorPen/etc. that bad or is Strength just too good, since our complete "world view" on stats is fixated on comparing stats to what we gain from Strength.

It would be interesting to compare our gains from stats to how much Warriors/DKs (our closest relatives) gain from Haste, Armor Pen and so forth to ultimately be able to guestimate how well we scale in comparison.

Kinmaul · 11/12/08, 3:50 PM

Originally Posted by Nhul

The Judgment bug has been reported and noted by Blizzard. It happens far to often to be ignored.

Well thats good to hear and hopefully they get a fix working for it asap. How long has this been going on for? I didn't notice anything different until just recently.

Babathong · 11/12/08, 4:09 PM

Originally Posted by Avitus

The thing is after Str (with insane gains) and Hit/Expertise (which both have caps), pretty much all stats for us have become very lackluster (haste gone down with all our instant attacks, armor pen gone way down considering we do ~50/50 holy damage now compared to the traditional 25-30/70-75). As a matter of fact, they've become so laughably bad you gain about the same from spelldamage point to point (Redcape's sheet). Crit is actually surprisingly better now even.

At the same time, they can't just have 1 stat on our gear (Strength) since we'd also lose considering splitting stats allows you to have more from an itemvalue.

A slightly different question out of this is: Is really Haste/ArmorPen/etc. that bad or is Strength just too good, since our complete "world view" on stats is fixated on comparing stats to what we gain from Strength.

It would be interesting to compare our gains from stats to how much Warriors/DKs (our closest relatives) gain from Haste, Armor Pen and so forth to ultimately be able to guestimate how well we scale in comparison.

Well first off, Im glad your the one who responded. I was actually hoping Id get you to comment on this. I see what your saying about not being to able have just one stat on our gear. However, they have just put so much haste on the
T7 stuff that its comical. I mean Str and Stam are on everything, and then Haste, Crit, and Hit are spread across the 7 items, with Haste being the most popular. I just have this feeling that the developers created the itemization pre 3.0 when Haste was good. I remember when the gear was first released and I was so happy to finally see haste on our gear. All those feelings have gone down the tubes.

I guess I just hope to see some better itemization as the patches come out and the further set tokens are released. I agree that once they see how we scale with haste/ArP in comparison to warriors and DK's things should change.

• frmorrison · 11/12/08, 4:53 PM

Strength and Crit are by far the best stats, but they want to have room to grow, so they make T7 weaker than T8 and T9.

The devs know str/crit are better stats however don't want to make the item so good, so I would guess that T9 for Ret will have Str, Crit, Agility, and Hit rating and little of anything else, since haste and armor pen are not good stats.

Redcape · 11/12/08, 7:06 PM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Strength and Crit are by far the best stats, but they want to have room to grow, so they make T7 weaker than T8 and T9.

The devs know str/crit are better stats however don't want to make the item so good, so I would guess that T9 for Ret will have Str, Crit, Agility, and Hit rating and little of anything else, since haste and armor pen are not good stats.

Only partly true. Once you are hit and expertise capped Str/Crit is optimal, but until that point the ordering is more like:

Str
Hit
Expertise
Crit

leaving Haste, ArPen and SPower as the junk stats.

Although admittedly AP is actually really, really good. Since you get 2 AP per itemization point it is actually superior to everything but Str (obviously) but they seem adverse to putting Str and AP both on our gear.

Selenia · 11/12/08, 7:57 PM

Update on the disappearing-Judgements bug:

Happens with insane frequency when levelling in Howling Fjord now. I lose one jugement every second fight. Sometimes more. I've even tried purposely waiting a second before judging and I -still- lose them on occasion.

Anyone know what's causing this? Neither my prot nor my holy friends have experienced it at all.