Where is the math you talk of? I havent seen you doing anything that would evaluate our mana consumption. While using SoW verus damage lost, while using JoW verus damage lost and mana lost. Where is this math you speak of?

And stop making it e-peen meter. You asked question about my ways of evaluating our mana consumption and I gave them. Why start craptalking me when I just answer to your question? You said you understand how things work for other classes also, yet you dont have any experience about them? Would my point be valid if I had green geared alts? Item level has nothing to do with results as we know our manaregen does not improve over gear upgrades unlike warlocks or shadowpriests. If you dont have any idea how they work, why are you commenting?

Edit: Actually this conversation is horribly boring and totally stupid. Im done here. There is absolutely no reason to continue as we arent getting anywhere. Feel free to give me PM if you have any further questions.

Knock your self out mate:

http://cromfel.battlefield.fi/wow/re...comparison.jpg
(Expected manapool 6000. Spirit regen included in estimations)

You can draw what ever conclusions you want. Its simplified ofcourse, as you personally said...

And why exactly you expect me to be entitled to do it for you? In my eyes you are only trolling just because you can be against me. Nothing less, nothing more. Only because internet gives you that option behind anonymity. If you arent willing to join up for the manaregen conversation by proving your stand, then stay out of it. None at these forums are entitled to prove your wild assumptions wrong, if you spam something completely based on your "long grinding for reputation".

Why is a decrease in dps versus a longevity issue a problem? I have a warlock alt, and I can only grind indefinitely if I'm draining life, which certainly is not my highest dps spell.

My warrior doesn't grind nearly as efficiently as my pally did (he's only level 62 atm), and if you factor in the gy-runs from o-shit moments than occasionally happen, it gets even worse. I'd imagine it's the same with rogues. Why aren't you comparing pallies to these classes instead of warlocks, the most overpowered class in the game?

Without being too impertinent, may I ask why you so strongly feel entitled to be better at grinding? I have a prot pally, and I'm basically useless in PVP and grinding. But, I do a very effective and fulfilling job in PVE groups, and I knew going in that PVP and grinding were not going to be things I would even be nominally good at. Healers have even a worse time of it than us tanks.

I dont know about all classes but I play a warlock and a rogue and I have made the same observation as Cromfel. Ret grinding has to many downtimes compared to other dps classes. Holy priest and resto druids have the same problems like holy paladin which are adressed in the new patch.

You guys talk so much about seal of wisdom yet I don't see no comparison of SoW grinding to just drinking. Honestly if you spend less mana per mob than a mage then the mage's only advantage is higher spirit regen when walking between mobs, ~4-5k mana every 10 minutes and less walking due to 41 yard range. While these seem like small differences, in my experience it seems to actually be quite significantly:

-Time between mobs is significant when grinding. The more your gear improves, the more significant it is. As long as mobs are melee ranged classes (or at least mages by my experience) have the major advantage here by pulling the mob to them rather than walking to the mob. As a pally I do drag the mob while meleeing it so I can pull the next asap but it just doesn't feel as effective at least until you're at a gear level where you can safely handle 2 without increased downtime and yet you kill them slow enough that they don't die before you even get close to the next mob...

-spirit regen is a small, yet noticeable addition to your grinding speed. This is especially noticeable when you grind really weak mobs (and/or with really good gear) and therefore your time between mobs increases. It gets to the point where on some mobs my mage drinks once (for 30s, sometimes twice) every 10 minutes and evocates every 10 minutes. Of course a lot of these are situational but it's another place where paladins have disadvantages, although this point is much less significant than the others.

-As you can see, as the mana cost per mob decreases and the time between mobs rises, stuff like evocation and shadowfiend gain value, while SoW loses value (as while reducing DPS is also not used full time and definitely not the judgmenet).

As you can see even if paladins are more mana efficient, it just doesn't cut it - there are too many other factors for fast grinding.

If you compare paladin grinding to rogue/warrior grinding it's not even close as those can bandage thier HP to be faster than eating, while palainds can't bandage their mana to be faster than drinking. As gear levels get higher this only gets more significant.

I would just like to add that while I'm still leveling my paladin, I spend 700-1300 mana per mob (levels 50-52) at lvl56, which is like 2-4 lvl54 fireballs which is what a mage my level would be using if geared properly, taking 6-12s to kill a mob while I'm taking something like 8-15. It's really hard to measure those kind of things though especially due to the variance of DPS having a very large impact on grinding speed (higher variance means slower grinding even at equal average DPS due to overkilling mobs. My mage still holds some fiery wrath gear to swap some epics that don't have enough spell damage for that reason).

Also if you compare paladin regen abilities to other classes paladin's reduces DPS the most by far compared to all of them while regening quite slowly (30s to regen mana for 30s of grinding (by your numbers)? come on!).

Back to raiding?

Wow, 2 pages of back and forth about an issue which really needs no discussion.


Fiola, here's the situation:

1. For any DPS specced class in the game, as your gear improves, your DPS increases, so you're able to grind more mobs in the same time frame.

This is also true for ret paladins. So no problems here.

2. For most DPS specced classes in the game, as your gear improves, your downtime decreases while grinding.

This however, is NOT true for ret paladins. This is the problem. This is what we're talking about.


You might question whether this is the case, so I'll break it down further.

Downtime consists of 2 things: Needing to refill your A. Healthbar and needing to refill your B. Mana/Energy/Rage bar.

A. Healthbar: For every class in the game, as your gear improves, you take less damage per mob/time frame and thereby have less downtime refilling your healthbar.

This is mainly due to the fact that by increased DPS, you can kill things faster, giving the mobs less time to hit you.

For casters this means killing things before they even reach you, or taking much less hits, thereby almost completely negating having to refill your healthbar.

For melee classes better gear also means more armor, more dodge, more overall mitigation. Also your DPS reaches a point where you can kill things before they come out of your stunlock, thereby taking very little to no damage per mob. You can go on forever (almost) or only taking quick bandage breaks every nth mob, where n rises the more your gear improves.

This is also true for ret paladins. So no problems here.


B. Mana/Energy/Rage bar:

-For Energy/Rage based classes (Rogues/Warriors/Ferals) this is a non issue. Energy/Rage is virtually INFINITE and you never have to use consumables and a long downtime to refill it, as a matter of fact rage promotes constant grinding rather than taking breaks so you don't lose rage. These classes have no other downtime besides refilling their healthbars, energy/rage downtime does not exist.

-For Mana based classes this is the main downtime issue. However, you'll notice that while this downtime is reduced by improved gear for almost every mana based class, this is NOT true for ret paladins.

The key word here is scaling.

A priest doing more damage receives more mana back from Vampiric Touch (and even HP from Vampiric Embrace) as his gear improves.

A warlock can life tap/drain for much more as he gains more spelldamage.

An enhancement Shaman with Shamanistic Rage gains mana back based on his AP, as this AP increases, so does his mana regen.

A mage, well, mages are based on being the water factories of the game. Furthermore, Evocation is percent based on the mage's mana bar, meaning the more total mana you get from your improved gear, the more evocation gives you.

A Hunter's aspect of the viper is percent based on his/her intellect and improves as the hunter gains more int through gear.


That's every class in the game for you.

Now paladins?

BoW does not improve with gear. JoW does not improve with gear. Benediction/Sanctified Judgement are fixed and do not improve with gear.

Our itemization barely improves our mana efficiency in any way. Due to the (faulty) way the class is designed, we need too many stats for there to be room for mana regen. An item with itemvalue spent on mana regen is almost always going to be a downgrade (if it existed).


As such, it's true that a green geared and an epic geared ret paladin will still have the same mana based downtime.

Furthermore, it's not like we're given any powerful cooldown to make up for this (see mage Evocation).


Why is scaling important?

Because that's what the game is based on. This is the core of WoW. Without scaling, without constant improvement, without the carrot on a stick, there's nothing to aim for.


Anyway, that's my attempt at putting a lid on whether this is a relevant issue or not. It is.

Btw, is bellator MIA? Hoping for a new version and some response to my feedback a few pages back

If you had spent half a minute actually reading what has been written you wouldn't be posting this.

Am I correct in the assumption that JoW actually scales *backwards* as our gear level increases?

That is, since JoW is strictly on a percentage-based chance to proc (instead of a PPM), as we start to deal more damage, we can kill the mob in less hits. Less hits means less JoW procs, which means less mana returned per mob.

You're wrong. You said you covered every class, but you didn't cover every spec. You didn't even cover every DPS spec. You deliberately chose to compare with specs that would favour your conclusion.

Using downtime as a measure of grinding effectiveness is stupid because it doesn't matter what your downtime is, all that matters is mobs per total grinding time. Breaking up mobs_over_total_time into DPS_per_mob and percent_of_resource_per_mob and pointing out that one scales upwards and the other scales downwards for ret paladins DOESN'T MATTER unless you show that there actually exists a point where the ret paladin is... what? Marginalized? No one has even defined what they consider to be an unacceptable 'grinding speed' anyway.

Scaling DOESN'T MATTER unless you show the conditions for unacceptable scaling can currently exist in-game.

Also: saying JoW scales negatively is incorrect. If you can kill an average mob faster, then you'll use less mana overall. Also, the fact that JoW is percentage based rather than PPM wouldn't have any effect anyway.

Actually, you're wrong here. For JoW less melee hits means less procs means less mana returned. The quicker you kill a mob the less hits you will be having against them. Therefore, the quicker you kill a mob the worse it is. Actually, as you will see JoW isn't even very useful when soloing.



The graph is time (in 3.8 second autoattacks) versus mana restored while only using autoattacks. Assuming a 50% proc chance (every other melee attack), you will gain more mana the longer a fight progresses, which naturally makes sence. However, if you can kill the mob in a very short amount of time (for example 2 autoattack periods) you will actually end up losing mana. This is a result of as follows.

To figure out how much mana it cost to judge a mob you can use the formula {(Seal cost) + (Judgement cost) - (Seal Cost * .50)}. Judgement of Wisdom therefore costs:

270 + 147 - (.50 * 270) = 282 mana

So before you can see any gain from Judgement of Wisdom you have to make up the 282 mana it cost to cast the spell. By plugging it into the equation we can determine how many autoattack cycles it will take to restore the mana cost of the spell.

y = 34 * x
282 = 34 * x
8.294... = x

So you will need over 8 autoattack cycles just to make up the cost of Judging the target. Thats over 30 seconds! Things of course become more complicated when you try to factor in other abilities like CS and more Judgements. These will increase the proc rate, but in addition your mana consumption will also increase. Basically this shows that if you can autoattack the mob to death in less than 30 seconds you are better off not judging the mob at all.

JoW is actually worse for your regen the faster you kill judged mobs. It is not passive regen like the "INT = Mp5" you pointed out for Shamans and Boomkins and can not be compared to them. JoW requires a very heavy and active investment to see any return or increase. It is never active between kills like the Mp5 talents that other classes have, and as is shown above does not really help a huge deal when it takes 30 seconds just to make up the cost of the spell.

Judgement of Wisdom is not a mana restoring ability in most soloing situations and should never be treated as one. It is simply a stopgap that slows your eventual time to OOM. The only true form of active regen we have is drinking, which means more downtime which means less efficient soloing.