bellator

Crap, sorry cromfel, just as i uploaded it, i noticed an error in some of my codeing messing up imp totems. I quickly uploaded and edited the link before anyone would notice, but you beat me to it. Sorry. Mind editing link again. Thanks

 

Agonar

Also working on collecting Data for JoW/JoL(in fact im currently analyzing different WWS Reports). I can post my result sometime during the weekend(lacking time lately tho).

Maybe Cromfel will be able to make a compilation of average benefit per class for these specific Jugement so we can have a kind of "Table" to show to our guild.

On a side note: The rogues in my guild usually scream of happiness when i drop jugement of light

 

grover

I've done some testing of crusade and meta gem on the 2.3 PTR using a [Club]

RED meta gem, 0/3 crusade
Auto attack:
hit - 224-226
crit - 463-466
modifier - 1.06

RED meta gem, 3/3 crusade
Auto attack:
hit - 231-233
crit - 491-494
modifier - 1.12

It's the same for all other melee attacks.

 

bellator

Will try to adjust my model to take this into account. Is this doubling up effect due to a metagem/crusade interaction or is it still there when not using the crit modifier.

 

grover

I didn't test it this time, but speccing 3/3 crusade and using no meta gem gives the same results as 0/3 crusade with the meta gem activated.
So you have
no meta, 0/3 crusade = 1.00
no meta, 3/3 crusade = 1.06
meta, 0/3 crusade = 1.06
meta, 3/3 crusade = 1.12

 

Wrl

Could you try and get some data on SoB or SoC as well? I am convinced that it is getting more than 35/70% And I am talking non crits too.

 

SomeoneRandom

Just finished catching up on the thread, and wanted to thank Cromfel for doing this, I am new to Retribution and every tool helps.

Onto the real meat of my post though, I was curious if any testings have gone into trying out the new Badges Libram [Libram of Divine Judgement] comparative to the usual [Libram of Avengement]. Particularly how it applies to Blood Elves. I know SoB is better than SoC in a pure dps measurement, but from what I understand this new libram might tip the scales, especially if your spamming rank 1 for mana efficiency?

I have yet to be able to get onto the PTR to test this, hopefully someone else can shed some light on the subject.

 

Kris

Bellator, no idea if anyone alerted you but now the macros don't work at all, at least on Excel 2003. Getting Error 1004 all the time and I have absolutely no idea what's causing this.

 

Prepared

To avoid spamming the thread, I was waiting for an opportune time to mention this, but they don't even work in OOo anymore (or my Excel 2003 viewer, which is patched up to the latest). The buttons just don't do anything, and in OOo they give errors.

 

Gonjaman

I was also wondering if people had tested the new librams vs the standard libram of avengement? Are they worth it?

I've been reading through this all day at work (shh don't tell the boss), and wanteed to thank everyone. I rolled ret for a long time, am currently tank, but going back to ret when 2.3 goes live (ret on pve test server), and i'm glad blizz is finally doing something for us.

 

DarKNecross

New spreadsheet versions (recommend instead of older ones!)
Excel
Open Office

http://crimson-guild.com

 

bellator

@Kris & Prepared

With regards the file not working in OO/Excel 2003 Viewer/Excel 2003, i'm at a loss.

Over the last few version i have completely re-written a lot of the code to make it simpler going forward for me to update the file. However the version of Excel I am using to create it is 2003 so Excel 2003 and Excel viewer should have no problem with it.

Have made some bug fixes and changed the way i have declared sub functions, so hopefully people will have some more joy with this version. Anyone who is able / not able to get this one to work, let me know and will try to get it resolved.

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

 

Prepared

This version is just about as broken as the other, sadly. I did discover a difference between versions 8 and 14, which I have uploaded as HTML examples... just to show what it looks like on my end.

Version 8

Version 14

I hope that this visual helps somewhat!

PS: Do you think maybe we should make a separate thread about this, so we don't clutter all the theorycrafters?

 

Igniter

When you add, you should add in stat weights for a mutually agreed on base stats like the enh shamans did, so the average joe (mid ssc/tk) can base their choices on a formula over what looks good. As well, think about adding popular builds/easy to obtain weapons since the questions will flood for information. You could probably just liberate most of the enh shaman thread and switch it to paladins values, Malan did a great job constructing it.

 

bellator

V15 of model Free file hosting by Savefile.com hopefully fixing the err:502

 

DarKNecross

When i opened it, I ended up having to go into Tools>Macro>Security and lowering the level to Medium. That might be why your macro buttons don't work.

http://crimson-guild.com

 

xellos

I recently picked up [Greaves of the Bloodwarder] and I am already looking at possible future upgrades. Would it be worth it to bid for [Leggings of Divine Retribution] or just wait for [Legguards of Endless Rage]? The greaves will have about 20 more STR after gems and I'm not familiar with how much armor penetration will affect retadin dps.

 

Prepared

That's where my setting has been the entire time, and I do select to "enable macros". I didn't include the actual error because the dialog box loads weird on my computer at work, but once I am home I can edit this to reflect the actual error message.

This version is better. The ring and trinket errors are gone, but they still appear in the following rows:

Divine Strength
BoK
Librams
All DPS totals
All Stat totals under Information

So whatever you changed is on the right track!

 

trangoul

So I have been playing around with numbers slightly in game, and was wondering if anyone is able to run or can link me to where there is a post about this following question/build (as i looked but couldn't find one)...

I was wondering what viability, (if any) there is to a spell damage ret build that has seal/judgment of righteousness as the main dps? something around 10/8/43 that maximizes holy damage done, and gets imp SoR and whatnot. then instead of using a power 2 handed use something like the sword of leo, and sheild off nightbane. (or the new 2 hander with 168 spell dmg coming from zul'aman). I am a prot pally, and currently my guilds MT, and we are just starting Mag/TK/SSC (Ive had plenty of experience in SSC/TK on my lock), and was wondering how that ret spell dmg ranks up in case I can go dps for a while if we get a better MT. with my rather lacking spell dmg gear, im around 650dmg unbuffed, but have almost enough crit and spell crit in that gear to have vengeance up 100% of the time with just melees and judgments... But I would really love to see the numbers done by an expert on how maximizing spell dmg and useing SoR would stack up to the standard 2-hander SoC build. I'm hoping that in the somewhat near future with new heroic loot I should be able to get around 850-900ish spell dmg while maintaining about 25% critrate after talents (which on a 1.8 weapon speed is usually good enough for vengeance). I know the white dmg is terrible, but does the spell damage make up for it with SoR/JoR/Crusader and if you got a SP in the group feeding you mana, and get another pally to JoW, consecration damage too...

Thanks in advanced for any and all help!

 

bellator

The answer all depends on your other gear. Leggings of Divine retribution are imo the best leggings in game if you are already hit capped. If you are not hit capped, the the legguards of endless rage are the better option

 

Prepared

A couple of nifty resources for figuring this out, that I've seen:

Paladin DPS Calculator (javascript needed)

Paladin Holy DPS (this forum)

 

Nicolai

It seems to one of the large questions in the air right now is some kind of stat equivalency formula. I recently hit 70 on my new paladin (raided with a paladin pre-TBC) after raiding with a hunter up to SSC. I'm playing catchup on gear and occasionally I get the chance at a pretty big +spell dmg item which might be an upgrade over my current blue. After some extensive reading an number crunching, I'm almost entirely outfitted in melee plate.

My big question is what amount of +spell dmg would be equivalent to AP or STR? It's not a matter of "don't take it at all" but rather of finding it's relative value. Do I avoid all paladin Tier 4 gear in favor of melee plate? Probably not, but I have limited information for making those judgements.

What I'd really like to do is figure out some type of equivalency chart or table to compare stats to one another. What I'd love to do is figure out how much STR/AP a point of spell damage is worth and translate that into my comparisons.

Using the numbers from this site http://www.91nine.com/dps/paladin.php (I'm not sure how accurate they are) based off my current level of gear, adding the 30 spell damage from my Oathkeeper (oh so close to crafting my Thunder, stupid primals) over a baseline of no spell damage adds 3 DPS for 30 spell damage, or 1 DPS per 10 spell damage. That means each point of spell damage adds .1 DPS.

Using bellator's gear presets from his spreadsheet, the Tier 4 gear (including all the default buffs and with the sword replaced with a Hammer of the Naaru, since the above site doesn't model haste rating) I saw a pretty big variance when adding an additional 30 spell damage. The difference in DPS was 36.16, which meant that 1.2 DPS was added per point of spell damage. That means that at that level of gear spell damage is worth twelve times as much as it is in blues. That doesn't quite make sense to me.

I realized part of my mistake was that I was relying on one run through of the simulator. It turns out my tier 4 run through was a little high. The average with the additional 30 spell damage was more like 1260 instead of 1273. That's still a 23 DSP increase of the minor 3 DPS increase I saw at the blue level. Rerunning those numbers, I saw a shift when I ran the simulation six times and took the average. There was a 7 DPS difference at that point, which meant spell damage was worth .23 DPS a point. That's in sharp contrast to the .7 DPS that the averaged numbers give for the tier 4 set number, still.

I only got more confused when I tried the tier 5 gear numbers. This time the spell damage added .17 DPS per point, averaged over 6 simulations. This was less than the original blue numbers. /headasplode

Aside from simple needing to run these simulation more than 6 times (each which represents 5000 seconds of combat, which is 83 minutes) why the big difference in DPS added per point of spell damge? These numbers make it sound like there might be a bell curve in there somewhere.

Since I ran into this confusion, I never got around to testing how adding AP would work at each level, and thus don't have a ratio of how much Spell damage is worth compared to STR or AP.

 

Ragnor

Plugging my gear/short term wishlist into the spreadsheet for me it takes ~30 +dmg for a 10dps increase vs ~10str for the same dps increase, meaning +dmg is awful and I should stack str as much as possible.

However remember "warrior" style gear does not have int, +dmg gear does, so you will need need to wear some "paladin" style gear to give you a decent mana pool to work with.

PS: The spreadsheet is really coming along nicely, highly anticipating ac penetration being taken into account somehow and represented.

The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements. Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest.

www.retpaladin.com

 

bellator

Cheers . Though AC Penetration is already in the sheet. It's the column "ArmP". Though it's not possible to put into the graph as no one knows how much Armor Penetration you get per itemisation point spent.

 

Lavis Knight

I did notice that the SOC rank 1 seemed to fall behind quite a bit in your calculations if you factor in time 5 minutes Vs 3 minutes? If they were both 5 minutes wouldn't SOC max rank far surpass the first rank? (Assuming of course you could sustain the mana cost)

I just think to say that there is such a small difference between them but only factor in 5 minutes Vs 3 minutes is a little misleading. (Raids may offer additional support.)

I am also wondering what you mean about the 8 second judgment? Do you mean to say that due to GCD it is nearly as beneficial to use 9 seconds?

I find the analysis very helpful though Cromfel ^^ thank you.

I would suggest if we are to put these measurements into an over time value we should try to pick a time and call it dps time or melee time. After an arbitrary number is chosen then you can extrapolate the number of attacks a certain class should reasonably have during that time. Base this on ideal weapon speeds (Such as roughly 3.6-3.8 for a ret paladin) for the class in question and figure out dps rotations that are most used by a certain spec that can trigger the judgments.

Forget about group buffs for now. So you'll be able to say such and such a class should be getting roughly at the least X health per second for 5 minutes of continuous melee.

I think such a unit would simplify the process. Its a lot easier to say you should be getting x health per second for every 5 minutes of continuous melee than to say this is how much you will get for a certain boss fight.